you were playing the same list? I’m guessing this deck was basically just ported over from Pioneer.
I’m pretty sure the deck needs to be rebuilt to exclude Karn. Besides Lattice being banned, Opal was banned so artifact decks will be less prevalent, and therefore his passive is less relevant.
I’ve never been that high on Hydra, but it worked really well in that deck with not many high cc creatures for a toolbox deck, where it is awkward. It also gave a glass cannon pseudo combo deck some protection and IN ADDITION, it helped dig for the payoffs. Definitely he best deck I’ve seen for Hydra.
Unfortunately I think Karn really smoothed that deck out, and I’m not sure what could replace it.
Up to 4X Vivien for starters. So it’s only 3 slots that need to be replaced
So, my list wasn't exact. I was playing a couple more lands, and was using Wistful Selkie instead of Llanowar Tribe, so my main deck creature count was a few under the Gooch.
1) Most of the Mono-G at Knox (and I only think there were a handful of them), were already playing 4x Vivien. She is removal, avoidance, and can fetch creatures from sideboard. With 3 pips, I think she is a staple of the deck. A fun trick is tapping Nykthos to get the mana in the pool, -5 Vivien (the turn after she is played), and fetching Ulamog to play with all that fancy mana. Not hard to do T3 (or 4).
2) Llanowar tribe may be a change I make if I continue to play it. It takes a full Lightning Bolt to get rid of (unlike other dorks can get bit with a lava spike), and is not a bad late-game draw. The Selkie gave me the same devotion, but netted me a card, which is what the deck needs IMO.
3) I don't think you give up on Karn. Lattice was nice, but it was fragile. Very few times early game can you play Karn, -2, fetch lattice, and play on the same turn. Sometimes the crack back against a minused Karn (when you tapped your blockers to cast) means the combo breaks down. There are a mountain of other options to fetch for that impact the game long enough for you to win. Just look at the Gooch's SB for proof. I am going to work to keep him, because the toolbox is still powerful in Modern, allowing you to basically sideboard every game. Ponza is still a thing. On the play, you can keep Tron off Tron indefinitely with Karn + Coating.
Again, I loved the deck. It felt explosive and powerful. It is disheartening having your nobles and birds pinged, which is the major weakness of the deck.
I can’t tell you how happy I am. For those of you to the forum; I have been a relative nut about Genesis Hydra for years and have been a very big advocate for Karn in particular (and walkers in general) for some time.
I was high on LLanowar Tribe; but had moved away from Burning-Tree Emissary and Devited Druid in my play history...I would not have seen their power in the new builds without the community here.
It’s by our community coming together that such awesome lists get made! Christopher Gooch did such an amazing job. What an awesome Devotion player. Hopefully he hops on here so we can thank him!
I think it may finally be time for people to see how good we’ve know this deck could be for a long time!
P.S. Will update the Primer ASAP to add the newest cards/list.
So, I was also attending SCG Knoxville, and also playing the Leyline List. I went 5-1, before hitting a horrible string of matches against Mono-Red Prowess, the Snow-blade deck, and with poor morale, got trash-canned by a terribly lucky TRON deck got to their payoffs faster.
I didn't get 2nd place, but here are some observations on the deck, and what I think that it needs to do to continue in a new meta.
1) Mono-Green Devotion was stupidly well-positioned in the meta at the time. The field was flooded with Urza decks and Oko-Amulit Builds. Our deck literally murders non-interactive match-ups. With any decent hand, we are faster and more explosive than any other deck in the format, and by Turn 3, we can make a ton of mana and often can play Karn, fetch, and play a stumbling block that delays long enough to command the game. In my 5 wins, I 2-0'd Tron, Urza (the most played deck), Dredge, B/G Yawgmoth, and U/G Amulet Titan. My only early loss was to Mono-Red Prowess. Which brings me to #2
2) The deck is weak to interaction / removal. Bolting our birds, or a key Thoughtseize will mess you up playing a deck that is adamant about hitting a 4-cost PW on T3 (and some games T2 - with a couple of Leylines). That's where Prowess got me. Killed any dorks I played, and pinned down the benefit of the Leylines, and hampered Nykthos.
3) Genesis Hydra was the hidden gem. Many of my opponents flipped it over to read it, and my reply was often - "It's like Krasis. No matter what, I get to look, and play." This was the hidden tech against counter-spells. I originally was playing with Krasis and Voracious Hydra, but after some play testing, the Hydra was just bonkers. It can be cast for X=4 as early as T2, but reliably by T3, and at X=4, it literally will play everything in the deck other than Once Upon a Time. If they don't have a counter, it is a game-shattering 2 for 1 on T3. And it's not that hard to consistently do.
4) This deck is fun to play. Like, really fun. I had some of the most fun, even at a high-stakes REL event.
But the real news:
1) With the Oko and Mox bans, the Urza deck is effectively dead. With that, more "fair" decks will sneak in. We are already seeing this with an increase in Mono-Red Prowess, Burn, Death's Shadow, Humans, Tron and Jund. Each of these decks have just enough gas to interrupt us enough for a win. To continue, this deck - whether in the main or in the side has to deal with early creature removal. Options include veil of Summer, or Shaper's Sanctuary - but I had been so underwhelmed with these, they weren't in my SB, though I will say I may have paid for it in my Prowess matchups.
2) The loss of Lattice may not be as bad as people think. Sure, it was a nice lock, but it was hard to pull off through potential disruption, or I was at least delayed a turn between being able to Karn for it, and play it. In fact, in more than one game, I went for the Coating because it could be "on" the next turn, and I Ponza'd out the Titan player. Between Karn and Vivien there are a lot of things out there that can disrupt or end a game. So much so, that the loss of Lattice doesn't even impact Karn's place in the deck.
I am cautiously optimistic about the future of this deck. Will be interested in what comes next.
I am using the same list that Sam Black posted in SCG Premium - the list is actually linked about a page or so ago (I think). You are correct on the Nissa interaction - that was my mistake.
I played the deck again at FNM, and it has both explosive starts, or painful ones. You really have to mulligan like it's a combo deck. I went 3-1.
The problem with Leyline is that you have to build around it a bit, which requires making sacrifices. It’s also makes the deck lack consistency, since the deck is much worse without it in the opening. I built was is probably the best Modern version of the Leyline Devotion though.
Now that I look at it, the deck could be fine tuned a a bit more, since I have 4x Finale the sideboard could be adjusted to take better advantage of that. Adding a Shalai, Voice of Plenty main deck is probably correct.
You can replace Finale with Chord fo Calling, not sure which is better for this deck.
This kind of response is what I am talking about. It seems that the original and persistent version of mono-green devotion (as indicated by nearly 400 pages here) is married to the sprawl / dryad combo. It doesn't want to take the small next step and just become a devoted devastation deck, and is more like a ramp deck in green.
I think that leyline strategies have a lot of nuance that is still to be explored, including the advantage present with the London mulligan, as well as considering this deck to be more combo than ramp/grind. I have been playing a stock version of Sam Black's deck which consistently (whether it's leyline + dork or Emissary + Nykthos) powers a PW on T2/3 which if survives pulls a bullet from the sideboard to dramatically impact the game. That style of play makes the extra mana that Devotion can generate a "bonus", making nearly every top deck after that potentially game winning (whether another Karn to play/fetch/play, or one of the 6 X creatures, or even a Leyline, which makes all your baddies bigger without having to splash white for Shalai.
In fact, one of the only reasons why I don't think that this deck is played more now is that it is susceptible to cheap removal (so early starts struggle when the dorks get bolted/pushed). Of course, I would imagine that's a problem in the original builds as well.
Regardless, I am glad to have discovered this archtype and am excited to play in it (coming from a previously energetic G/B Elves player).
Hello all. First, let me say that I am newer to this community, and come here specifically due to seeing Mono-Green Devotion in Pioneer and Sam Black's article.
I wanted to add to the conversation about the builds that are utilizing the newer, powerful cards that were seen in the Pioneer version (Leyline, Nissa, Vivien). First, I have had the chance to play Sam's build in two FNM's, and have gotten 3-1 both times. The deck is strong against Tron (it's as big mana as they can be), various Urza'a (or any real non-interactive deck), among others. It is susceptible to early creature removal, but it would seem that is an issue with the Arbor Elf build as well.
I think that the toolbox approach (as offered by having Karn's and Vivien's) means that by t3/t4 you are fetching for the bane of your opponent's build. Nissa, yes 5cmc, but once she is down, she can be a win-con all her own. While it makes land susceptible to removal, you can often protect against that by just re-targeting the same land (increasing counters). Vivien and Nissa also decrease the value of Oko, as their counter's persist, and help in an elk-war.
Has anyone here had any more extensive testing with the Leyline build?
It seems like a decent mana-sink for mid-game, or when we are in top deck mode (we draw a mystic late game with this in the field). It can also block flyers. Thoughts?
That is good to know on the forums. I have been on here for some time trying to get info on various decks.
That being said, Discord? I would love to have some access to that. I didn't see the info on the main page. Is it somewhere else?
I'd love to see the discussion on Sephara, I thought mainly cause you can get her out for much less than CMC on most occasions, that she makes other tokens indestructible, is a foil to Burn (takes at least three spells to kill), and seems to be immune to lots of common removal in the format. In, fact, I was trying to wrack my brain on what might be good against it, considering things like Maelstrom Pulse, Assassin's Trophy, etc. Even sacrifice effects are not really good, assuming you have tapped 4 to make her in the first place. Would love to see that discussion.
Anyone thought anything about Vivien's Arkbow? Seem's like recursive searches that can turn extra lands or dorks into bigger things. Not sure if there's room, though.
I've also been thinking about several games that I lost, and am thinking hard about: Steel Leaf Champion.
It is out of range of Bolt, Collective Brutality, an un-revolted Push, Electromancer, Electrolyze, etc. all without a lord in play (which is where a lot of our other creatures are fragile). It is NEVER a dead draw, is a target for CoCo, and can attack uncontested against almost every deck in the format for 1-2 turns, and a common play would be to T1 Dork, T2 Champ, and then T3 Clancaller/Archdruid and attack for 6 on T3, likely unblocked - especially on the play. We would always also have the aggressive T2 of Heritage + Dwynen's and tap for 3 more, but in that case if the next play is a Champ, we are doing mountains more damage.
I am seriously considering dropping the 2 Visionaries, and putting 2 Steel Leaf in, and trying to find more room. I am even considering removing 1-2 of my Ezuri. Ezuri ate removal every time he hit the board if I couldn't activate him in response the same turn, and Steel-Leaf doesn't die to the same removal that Ezuri does by default.
I know that Steel Leaf got some chatter when Dominaria was first out, but I just feel that with Clancaller, this deck (at least the G/B version) is way more aggressive / aggro, and that maybe the Champ needs a second look.
I ended up doing 2-3 and dropping, a disappointing finish, but I can say, I think it was more due to play decisions than the deck itself.
R1 - Mardu Pyromancer - Loss - (0-2)
G1 - I had a slow start (kept a 1-lander), and couldn't keep up against removal. Didn't draw a CoCo or a Lead.
G2 - Better start, but then he played a Thing In the Ice. I had played out my hand but with no CoCo or Lead, and no Ezuri, couldn't convert before getting bounced.
0-1
R2 - Bant Spirits - Win (2-1)
G1-G3 - was mainly a die roll. When he played first (G2) he had a stronger start. I overwhelmed him both games I was on the play.
1-1
R3 - Humans - Win (2-1)
G1-G3 - I don't remember much about these games, aside from the fact that the last one was an incredibly cluttered board that I eventually won the combat math on - without Ezuri (mainly just raw power of elves plus Lords). I was able to tutor for two extra callers in this game - relatively early, thanks to an online Nykthos).
2-1
R4 - Ponza / L/D - Loss (0-2)
G1 - Didn't know what I was up against. I had a 1-lander + 2 dorks, so I kept. Build board until T3 when he molten rained my only land. I then proceeded to continue to play without lands for several turns (didn't draw any more). Weirdest game of magic I have played in a long time. By the time his Inferno Titan hit the board, I still didn't have enough board presence to kill him in time.
G2 - He boarded in 3 Anger of the Gods. He plays 2 on me, and when I scoop, he shows me the third in his hand. Not sure what I could do about that.
2-2 (Need to win for even a chance here)
R5 - Burn - Loss (0-2)
I don't even want to talk about it. My hands were crappy, and it was likely more of a mulligan issue.
Thoughts (including on Clancaller vs. Visionary)
I find that Clancaller over-performed every time it came into play, other than when it was alone on the board. It really turns elves into more of a truer aggro deck over a combo. I won no games with an Ezuri activation, other than ones that I would have won even if he wasn't on the board. My games were won by armies of 3/3s or 4/4 with a splash of Shaman to boot. So many explosive starts.
I really am thinking about dropping the Visionaries all together, because I never felt I lost a game due to card advantage, and if I did, it was because I didn't draw a CoCo or a Lead, not the single from a visionary.
So, my list wasn't exact. I was playing a couple more lands, and was using Wistful Selkie instead of Llanowar Tribe, so my main deck creature count was a few under the Gooch.
1) Most of the Mono-G at Knox (and I only think there were a handful of them), were already playing 4x Vivien. She is removal, avoidance, and can fetch creatures from sideboard. With 3 pips, I think she is a staple of the deck. A fun trick is tapping Nykthos to get the mana in the pool, -5 Vivien (the turn after she is played), and fetching Ulamog to play with all that fancy mana. Not hard to do T3 (or 4).
2) Llanowar tribe may be a change I make if I continue to play it. It takes a full Lightning Bolt to get rid of (unlike other dorks can get bit with a lava spike), and is not a bad late-game draw. The Selkie gave me the same devotion, but netted me a card, which is what the deck needs IMO.
3) I don't think you give up on Karn. Lattice was nice, but it was fragile. Very few times early game can you play Karn, -2, fetch lattice, and play on the same turn. Sometimes the crack back against a minused Karn (when you tapped your blockers to cast) means the combo breaks down. There are a mountain of other options to fetch for that impact the game long enough for you to win. Just look at the Gooch's SB for proof. I am going to work to keep him, because the toolbox is still powerful in Modern, allowing you to basically sideboard every game. Ponza is still a thing. On the play, you can keep Tron off Tron indefinitely with Karn + Coating.
Again, I loved the deck. It felt explosive and powerful. It is disheartening having your nobles and birds pinged, which is the major weakness of the deck.
So, I was also attending SCG Knoxville, and also playing the Leyline List. I went 5-1, before hitting a horrible string of matches against Mono-Red Prowess, the Snow-blade deck, and with poor morale, got trash-canned by a terribly lucky TRON deck got to their payoffs faster.
I didn't get 2nd place, but here are some observations on the deck, and what I think that it needs to do to continue in a new meta.
1) Mono-Green Devotion was stupidly well-positioned in the meta at the time. The field was flooded with Urza decks and Oko-Amulit Builds. Our deck literally murders non-interactive match-ups. With any decent hand, we are faster and more explosive than any other deck in the format, and by Turn 3, we can make a ton of mana and often can play Karn, fetch, and play a stumbling block that delays long enough to command the game. In my 5 wins, I 2-0'd Tron, Urza (the most played deck), Dredge, B/G Yawgmoth, and U/G Amulet Titan. My only early loss was to Mono-Red Prowess. Which brings me to #2
2) The deck is weak to interaction / removal. Bolting our birds, or a key Thoughtseize will mess you up playing a deck that is adamant about hitting a 4-cost PW on T3 (and some games T2 - with a couple of Leylines). That's where Prowess got me. Killed any dorks I played, and pinned down the benefit of the Leylines, and hampered Nykthos.
3) Genesis Hydra was the hidden gem. Many of my opponents flipped it over to read it, and my reply was often - "It's like Krasis. No matter what, I get to look, and play." This was the hidden tech against counter-spells. I originally was playing with Krasis and Voracious Hydra, but after some play testing, the Hydra was just bonkers. It can be cast for X=4 as early as T2, but reliably by T3, and at X=4, it literally will play everything in the deck other than Once Upon a Time. If they don't have a counter, it is a game-shattering 2 for 1 on T3. And it's not that hard to consistently do.
4) This deck is fun to play. Like, really fun. I had some of the most fun, even at a high-stakes REL event.
But the real news:
1) With the Oko and Mox bans, the Urza deck is effectively dead. With that, more "fair" decks will sneak in. We are already seeing this with an increase in Mono-Red Prowess, Burn, Death's Shadow, Humans, Tron and Jund. Each of these decks have just enough gas to interrupt us enough for a win. To continue, this deck - whether in the main or in the side has to deal with early creature removal. Options include veil of Summer, or Shaper's Sanctuary - but I had been so underwhelmed with these, they weren't in my SB, though I will say I may have paid for it in my Prowess matchups.
2) The loss of Lattice may not be as bad as people think. Sure, it was a nice lock, but it was hard to pull off through potential disruption, or I was at least delayed a turn between being able to Karn for it, and play it. In fact, in more than one game, I went for the Coating because it could be "on" the next turn, and I Ponza'd out the Titan player. Between Karn and Vivien there are a lot of things out there that can disrupt or end a game. So much so, that the loss of Lattice doesn't even impact Karn's place in the deck.
I am cautiously optimistic about the future of this deck. Will be interested in what comes next.
I am using the same list that Sam Black posted in SCG Premium - the list is actually linked about a page or so ago (I think). You are correct on the Nissa interaction - that was my mistake.
I played the deck again at FNM, and it has both explosive starts, or painful ones. You really have to mulligan like it's a combo deck. I went 3-1.
This kind of response is what I am talking about. It seems that the original and persistent version of mono-green devotion (as indicated by nearly 400 pages here) is married to the sprawl / dryad combo. It doesn't want to take the small next step and just become a devoted devastation deck, and is more like a ramp deck in green.
I think that leyline strategies have a lot of nuance that is still to be explored, including the advantage present with the London mulligan, as well as considering this deck to be more combo than ramp/grind. I have been playing a stock version of Sam Black's deck which consistently (whether it's leyline + dork or Emissary + Nykthos) powers a PW on T2/3 which if survives pulls a bullet from the sideboard to dramatically impact the game. That style of play makes the extra mana that Devotion can generate a "bonus", making nearly every top deck after that potentially game winning (whether another Karn to play/fetch/play, or one of the 6 X creatures, or even a Leyline, which makes all your baddies bigger without having to splash white for Shalai.
In fact, one of the only reasons why I don't think that this deck is played more now is that it is susceptible to cheap removal (so early starts struggle when the dorks get bolted/pushed). Of course, I would imagine that's a problem in the original builds as well.
Regardless, I am glad to have discovered this archtype and am excited to play in it (coming from a previously energetic G/B Elves player).
I wanted to add to the conversation about the builds that are utilizing the newer, powerful cards that were seen in the Pioneer version (Leyline, Nissa, Vivien). First, I have had the chance to play Sam's build in two FNM's, and have gotten 3-1 both times. The deck is strong against Tron (it's as big mana as they can be), various Urza'a (or any real non-interactive deck), among others. It is susceptible to early creature removal, but it would seem that is an issue with the Arbor Elf build as well.
I think that the toolbox approach (as offered by having Karn's and Vivien's) means that by t3/t4 you are fetching for the bane of your opponent's build. Nissa, yes 5cmc, but once she is down, she can be a win-con all her own. While it makes land susceptible to removal, you can often protect against that by just re-targeting the same land (increasing counters). Vivien and Nissa also decrease the value of Oko, as their counter's persist, and help in an elk-war.
Has anyone here had any more extensive testing with the Leyline build?
Wildborn Preserver
It seems like a decent mana-sink for mid-game, or when we are in top deck mode (we draw a mystic late game with this in the field). It can also block flyers. Thoughts?
That being said, Discord? I would love to have some access to that. I didn't see the info on the main page. Is it somewhere else?
I'd love to see the discussion on Sephara, I thought mainly cause you can get her out for much less than CMC on most occasions, that she makes other tokens indestructible, is a foil to Burn (takes at least three spells to kill), and seems to be immune to lots of common removal in the format. In, fact, I was trying to wrack my brain on what might be good against it, considering things like Maelstrom Pulse, Assassin's Trophy, etc. Even sacrifice effects are not really good, assuming you have tapped 4 to make her in the first place. Would love to see that discussion.
Seems like a nice finisher, that can go off as early as turn 4, and due to size, is resistant to lots of removal. Thoughts?
My build is heavy in Lingering Souls, Spectral Procession, and Bitterblossom. Almost all my tokens are fliers.
It is out of range of Bolt, Collective Brutality, an un-revolted Push, Electromancer, Electrolyze, etc. all without a lord in play (which is where a lot of our other creatures are fragile). It is NEVER a dead draw, is a target for CoCo, and can attack uncontested against almost every deck in the format for 1-2 turns, and a common play would be to T1 Dork, T2 Champ, and then T3 Clancaller/Archdruid and attack for 6 on T3, likely unblocked - especially on the play. We would always also have the aggressive T2 of Heritage + Dwynen's and tap for 3 more, but in that case if the next play is a Champ, we are doing mountains more damage.
I am seriously considering dropping the 2 Visionaries, and putting 2 Steel Leaf in, and trying to find more room. I am even considering removing 1-2 of my Ezuri. Ezuri ate removal every time he hit the board if I couldn't activate him in response the same turn, and Steel-Leaf doesn't die to the same removal that Ezuri does by default.
I know that Steel Leaf got some chatter when Dominaria was first out, but I just feel that with Clancaller, this deck (at least the G/B version) is way more aggressive / aggro, and that maybe the Champ needs a second look.
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Clancaller
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Lead the Stampede
1 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Unclaimed Territory
3 Forest
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Reclamation Sage
2 Stain the Mind
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Chord of Calling
1 Lead the Stampede
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Chameleon Colossus
I ended up doing 2-3 and dropping, a disappointing finish, but I can say, I think it was more due to play decisions than the deck itself.
R1 - Mardu Pyromancer - Loss - (0-2)
G1 - I had a slow start (kept a 1-lander), and couldn't keep up against removal. Didn't draw a CoCo or a Lead.
G2 - Better start, but then he played a Thing In the Ice. I had played out my hand but with no CoCo or Lead, and no Ezuri, couldn't convert before getting bounced.
0-1
R2 - Bant Spirits - Win (2-1)
G1-G3 - was mainly a die roll. When he played first (G2) he had a stronger start. I overwhelmed him both games I was on the play.
1-1
R3 - Humans - Win (2-1)
G1-G3 - I don't remember much about these games, aside from the fact that the last one was an incredibly cluttered board that I eventually won the combat math on - without Ezuri (mainly just raw power of elves plus Lords). I was able to tutor for two extra callers in this game - relatively early, thanks to an online Nykthos).
2-1
R4 - Ponza / L/D - Loss (0-2)
G1 - Didn't know what I was up against. I had a 1-lander + 2 dorks, so I kept. Build board until T3 when he molten rained my only land. I then proceeded to continue to play without lands for several turns (didn't draw any more). Weirdest game of magic I have played in a long time. By the time his Inferno Titan hit the board, I still didn't have enough board presence to kill him in time.
G2 - He boarded in 3 Anger of the Gods. He plays 2 on me, and when I scoop, he shows me the third in his hand. Not sure what I could do about that.
2-2 (Need to win for even a chance here)
R5 - Burn - Loss (0-2)
I don't even want to talk about it. My hands were crappy, and it was likely more of a mulligan issue.
Thoughts (including on Clancaller vs. Visionary)
I find that Clancaller over-performed every time it came into play, other than when it was alone on the board. It really turns elves into more of a truer aggro deck over a combo. I won no games with an Ezuri activation, other than ones that I would have won even if he wasn't on the board. My games were won by armies of 3/3s or 4/4 with a splash of Shaman to boot. So many explosive starts.
I really am thinking about dropping the Visionaries all together, because I never felt I lost a game due to card advantage, and if I did, it was because I didn't draw a CoCo or a Lead, not the single from a visionary.