I noticed that Damping Sphere isn't included in the primer and no one appears to be running it in their sideboard. Is there a reason why Stompy doesn't use it at all?
I run 2 Spheres in the SB, mainly against Tron and Amulet Titan. As far as I am concerned the Sphere is one of our few Outs against Tron, so it should definitely be in the Primer.
I found Phoenix to be close, we have actually quite ok chances of simply racing them. Avatar provides Reach against Phoenix, a lot of Stompy Decks Play Scooze in the Maindeck, and Thing in the Ice does not block Steel Leaf Champion. Also, Dryad Militant has some relevant text here.
But still, the Turn 3 Thing flip or 6 attacking power on Turn 2 thanks to Morphose + Faithless Looting is still scary. I guess our plan here is race at all cost, and have that one removal for the Thing.
Thanks for all the thoughts guys! Some more questions based off feedback, no particular order, feel free to only reply to some and thanks again!
I'm usually a pretty big fan of redundancy, and running 2 ofs always throws me off, is 2 removal spells enough to get it done?
Depends on the matchup, but 3-4 in the 75 seems alright. There are games where you just simply can't survice without killing an opposing creature (Death's Shadow, Counter's Company).
Do you mulligan if you don't have a 1-drop creature?
Generally yes, a 1-drop on turn 1 generally applies the pressure you Need. But of Course there are exceptions, e.g. the Hands that involve Treetop Village, where you are Kind of happy to start with a tapped land and then go on with 2- and 3-drops.
Is Tusker preferable to Ooze if you don't anticipate seeing many graveyard decks?
Yes, I guess so. I definitely have lost game before, where the 1 extra damage was missing. Don't get me wrong, Ooze is the strictly better Card in a vaccuum, but there are lots of game where it is just a Grizzly Bears. Personally, I run only 1 in the maindeck, another one in the sideboard. Also, it provides only 1 Devotion.
The Oasis seems a bit strange to me, what's the appeal over another Village/Forest?
Oasis gives you some extra value from your lands in the "lategame" (after turn 4). You will quickly hit the Point in the game where you enter topdeck-mode, and in this case you Need every help you can get. In this case, Oasis is basically an extra pump spell, just like Treetop Village is an extra creature. The lifeloss is hardly relevant.
Would the deck run any banned cards if they were available? Deathrite?
Yes, actually I played 2 Gitaxian Probes, when they were legal - free Information and increased redundancy, great! But the Card is definitely banned for a reason (even in Legacy).
Deathrite Shaman would not help the deck in my opinion, for the same reason that Noble Hierarch is not played in the deck. Mana creatures just do not provide enough extra damage and tempo to be relevant here.
I guess that makes for a fine start. You might want to cut 2 Leatherback Baloths (since 6 3-drops seem to be the Maximum to be aggressive enough) and 2-4 Pelts or Experiments (since more than 4 Evolvers might be too many to use them adequately).
I would suggest "investing" these free Slots in some removal, which is missing completely - Dismember or even Prey Upon could do the Job here. In the Manabase, I have to disagree with Mtgthewary, in my opinion 20 lands is more than enough. 1-2 Treetop Villages might be a good idea there, to ensure a little lategame power.
Also, 2-3 2-drops could be good to smooth out the curve, maybe Kalonian Tusker or even Garruk's Companion or Scavening Ooze (if that's budget-friendly enough).
But as I said, an absolut solid start, just needs a little Tuning. Have a look through the former 10 pages of this Thread, there you'll find some more lists for Inspiration. Good luck!
@Mtgthewary: You might want to be a little more specific when making such suggestions, I guess otherwise this Person might not learn why these changes could be relevant.
In a delver deck it's normally best to have 24-26 spells to flip the delvers early. It doesn't make a ton of difference via the math, but it feels like it does. 17 creatures is on the high end so you may want to cut one or two creatures and possibly get path to exile into the main.
This is actually a Topic I did not consider so far - I started out with about ~13 creatures and always felt like there weren't enough threats to actually end the game. So going down on the creatures and up on spells sounds perfectly reasonable.
However, I am not sold on Path to Exile in the maindeck so far. More Experience might proof me wrong, but the if the idea is to choke the Opponent on mana for 1-2 turns with Thalia, Path works against that plan. So as you already saw, right now Vapor Snag serves as the Path-replacement.
Another thought process I had while Building this:
In former Posts of this Thread I saw lists trying Bedlam Reveler - as a former Mardu Pyromancer Player I am highly interested in this. But in my Thing/Ascension list it was actually really bad. Since you fill your Hand with cantrips and burn spells, discarding your Hand to Reveler is often not a desirable Option.
For the Delver list, I could imagine a build with Thought Scour and Faithless Looting. This would, by the way, also be a way to see more Cards and find you threats easier while also allowing us to Play more instants/sorceries for Delver.
At least - in theory. Has anyone tried something like this before?
Dear Jeskai Community, I am just coming from the Thread about Jeskai Thing Ascension - and now that I probably can afford to buy a playset of Snapcasters, I'd like to join the Jeskai Delver brood.
There are a few maybe controversial ides in this list which I would really like to have Feedback on.
There is the inclusion of Thalia, which I think might give the deck a tempo Advantage against anything with Big Mana and huge finishers. I also like Obstructionist - an idea I copied from Jeff Hoogland (the list started out as UR Delver).
I am also not a big fan of Serum Visions and prefer Opt. The idea is, that the ability to react during your opponents turn makes up for the lesser Cards you see.
The Flex Slots is also interesting - what are your opinions on Forked Bolt, Abrade, Burst Lightning and Jeskai Charm?
First Tests on XMage were quite promising, although there is a strategic depth in this deck which I am not used to. I would love to hear your opinions.
Actually managed to finish 4-0 on Friday.
But to be fair, the matchups were 2x Bant Spirits, UW Spirits and BW Tokens, so all creature-based decks which really care about Thing in the Ice AND are struggling to handle Pyro Ascension.
I have to admit this finish gives me additional motivation to invest more effort into the deck. Because my last attempts were not that successful - as Rodebo pointed out before, the BGx matchup is horrible (or at least I do not see that many tools for it).
In the latest YouTube uploads by Jeff Hoogland there is a stream with Firemind's Research included. How are we feeling about this one?
I see it that way: Since all of our creatures are at least one green mana, Might of the Masses will almost always be worse than Aspect of Hydra. Or the other way around, this deck plays no tokens, so only activating Treetop Village could potentially produce a scenario where Might is better than Aspect.
And because most iterations of the deck want a maximum of 4 Aspect, playing Might as a 5th copy is also no consideration. So in my opinion, no, I think Might of the Masses is not worth a try.
Absolutely. I played Manamorphose as a cantrip instead of the 20th Land before, and a Wolfir Avenger instead of the third Renegade.
To the PPTQ, here's how it went:
Round 1 Infect (2-1)
This is actually a matchup I would describe as close to unwinnable. I was lucky to draw my removal in time, and to counter his pump spells with Vines of Vastwood. Once the the creatures are done, you can race Infect pretty easily, because there is simplay nothing in your way.
Although, Game 2 was the
I boarded Hunt the Hunter and Natural State as removal and Vines as additional counter, for Ooze, Morphose and a Rancor.
Round 2 Ad Nauseam (2-0)
Not a lot to tell here. I finished him twice as he was not able to find his Combo quick enough. Game 2 Natural State was really helpful.
Boarding artifact and enchantment removal for creature removal and Ooze.
Round 3 4-Color Death Shadow (1-2)
That's a tough one. A lot of removal, Lingering Souls for blocking, counterspells, and Lilianas. Also, Death's Shadow is almost impossible to handle. My Opponent never made the mistake of relying on a single shadow and dying on the backswing, but was patient and killed me with Battle rage twice.
I managed to win Game 2 with Scavenging Ooze and a few protection spells.
Therefore, Boarding is 2nd Scavenging Ooze, 3rd Vines of Vastwood, Shaper's Sanctuary and Act of Aggression instead of some Rancors, Aspects and Deliverance.
Round 4 Humans (2-1)
This was awkward. The games were all very close, I actually won because my Opponent forgot about Reach on the Avatar of the Resolute TWICE. This, by the way, is because of Reach a very important card in the matchup. The most dangerous Cards in the matchup are Thalia (because of First Strike) and the Reflector Mage / Meddling Mage Combo, which can throw you back on the board really hard. But otherwise, the deck cannot handle your creatures effectively, so your chances of racing them are pretty good.
Sideboarding is just Ooze for Deliverance and a Mistcutter Hydra for a Morphose - Pro Blue can be relevant here.
Round 5 Humans (2-1)
This Humans Player was much more skilled. I managed to steal Game 1 with a simple attack into double pump - again, the unawareness of the Opponent for the deck is still an Advantage of this deck. Game 2 he is way ahead with massive creatures, but I managed to stabilize with Experiments and Geists. Here I learned, that the deck can build quiet s atronge defense as well. Unfortunately, he found his removal quicker than me. Game 3 I could win because he missed his land Drops - but still, the curve might have won the game anyway.
Here, Narnam Renegade really shined. Attacking into almost any blocker and get 2 damage or a dead blocker guaranteed is huge. After dying to pump spells in Game 1, my Opponent also really wanted to block my creatures.
Round 6 was an intentional draw against Jund. Sideboarding would be similar to the Death's Shadow Boarding.
In Top 8, I lost 0-2 to Mardu Pyromancer because of missing lands. Very frustrating, thanks to Steel Leaf Champion this matchup is actually quite good.
To my unusual Card choices:
Blossoming Defense
This could also be Vines Nr. 4. The unconditional pump for a single mana, even if there is just a CMC1 creature on the battlefield, can be relevant sometimes.
Dissenter's Deliverance
I used to play Gitaxian Probe when it was legal. Since the banning I looked for other cantrips to effectively reduce the number of Cards in the deck. I tried Manamorphose for a while, the DD is my latest Experiment. Having artifact removal Mainboard can be huge against Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge, Hollow One and Tron. In every other case, it is basically Horizon Canopy.
This is the plan - but I am still in testing here.
Prey Upon
I really like Dismember in the deck, but I wanted a "pain-free" alternative for other Aggro matchups. This also pairs well with Strangleroot Geist (killing a creature and getting an extra power) and Renegade (killing a creature with Deathtouch - although card disadvantage).
This also kills Thalia, cause First Strike is not applied while fighting.
Leatherback Baloth
This is simply Steel Leaf Champion Nr. 5. I thought the deck could need a bit more power in the CMC 3 Slot, and this is my current solution. While Champion is clearly the better Card, Baloth itself is not bad, so it's worth a try.
I was not impressed by Rhonas, since he is a bad topdeck on his own and requires a Setup. The other Option was Groundbreaker, which can steal games, but doesn't provide a real board Advantage if he doesn't kill the Opponent.
1
I run 2 Spheres in the SB, mainly against Tron and Amulet Titan. As far as I am concerned the Sphere is one of our few Outs against Tron, so it should definitely be in the Primer.
I found Phoenix to be close, we have actually quite ok chances of simply racing them. Avatar provides Reach against Phoenix, a lot of Stompy Decks Play Scooze in the Maindeck, and Thing in the Ice does not block Steel Leaf Champion. Also, Dryad Militant has some relevant text here.
But still, the Turn 3 Thing flip or 6 attacking power on Turn 2 thanks to Morphose + Faithless Looting is still scary. I guess our plan here is race at all cost, and have that one removal for the Thing.
1
Depends on the matchup, but 3-4 in the 75 seems alright. There are games where you just simply can't survice without killing an opposing creature (Death's Shadow, Counter's Company).
Generally yes, a 1-drop on turn 1 generally applies the pressure you Need. But of Course there are exceptions, e.g. the Hands that involve Treetop Village, where you are Kind of happy to start with a tapped land and then go on with 2- and 3-drops.
Yes, I guess so. I definitely have lost game before, where the 1 extra damage was missing. Don't get me wrong, Ooze is the strictly better Card in a vaccuum, but there are lots of game where it is just a Grizzly Bears. Personally, I run only 1 in the maindeck, another one in the sideboard. Also, it provides only 1 Devotion.
Oasis gives you some extra value from your lands in the "lategame" (after turn 4). You will quickly hit the Point in the game where you enter topdeck-mode, and in this case you Need every help you can get. In this case, Oasis is basically an extra pump spell, just like Treetop Village is an extra creature. The lifeloss is hardly relevant.
The non-Budget Option here is Horizon Canopy.
Yes, actually I played 2 Gitaxian Probes, when they were legal - free Information and increased redundancy, great! But the Card is definitely banned for a reason (even in Legacy).
Deathrite Shaman would not help the deck in my opinion, for the same reason that Noble Hierarch is not played in the deck. Mana creatures just do not provide enough extra damage and tempo to be relevant here.
1
I guess that makes for a fine start. You might want to cut 2 Leatherback Baloths (since 6 3-drops seem to be the Maximum to be aggressive enough) and 2-4 Pelts or Experiments (since more than 4 Evolvers might be too many to use them adequately).
I would suggest "investing" these free Slots in some removal, which is missing completely - Dismember or even Prey Upon could do the Job here. In the Manabase, I have to disagree with Mtgthewary, in my opinion 20 lands is more than enough. 1-2 Treetop Villages might be a good idea there, to ensure a little lategame power.
Also, 2-3 2-drops could be good to smooth out the curve, maybe Kalonian Tusker or even Garruk's Companion or Scavening Ooze (if that's budget-friendly enough).
But as I said, an absolut solid start, just needs a little Tuning. Have a look through the former 10 pages of this Thread, there you'll find some more lists for Inspiration. Good luck!
@Mtgthewary: You might want to be a little more specific when making such suggestions, I guess otherwise this Person might not learn why these changes could be relevant.
1
What do we think of this guy?
1
This is actually a Topic I did not consider so far - I started out with about ~13 creatures and always felt like there weren't enough threats to actually end the game. So going down on the creatures and up on spells sounds perfectly reasonable.
However, I am not sold on Path to Exile in the maindeck so far. More Experience might proof me wrong, but the if the idea is to choke the Opponent on mana for 1-2 turns with Thalia, Path works against that plan. So as you already saw, right now Vapor Snag serves as the Path-replacement.
Another thought process I had while Building this:
In former Posts of this Thread I saw lists trying Bedlam Reveler - as a former Mardu Pyromancer Player I am highly interested in this. But in my Thing/Ascension list it was actually really bad. Since you fill your Hand with cantrips and burn spells, discarding your Hand to Reveler is often not a desirable Option.
For the Delver list, I could imagine a build with Thought Scour and Faithless Looting. This would, by the way, also be a way to see more Cards and find you threats easier while also allowing us to Play more instants/sorceries for Delver.
At least - in theory. Has anyone tried something like this before?
1
This is the Iteration I am starting with:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Inspiring Vantage
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
//Instants
1 Abrade
1 Jeskai Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Opt
2 Remand
1 Spell Snare
3 Vapor Snag
1 Forked Bolt
//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Figure of Destiny
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Alpine Moon
1 Aurelia's Fury
2 Dispel
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Negate
2 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Wear // Tear
There are a few maybe controversial ides in this list which I would really like to have Feedback on.
There is the inclusion of Thalia, which I think might give the deck a tempo Advantage against anything with Big Mana and huge finishers. I also like Obstructionist - an idea I copied from Jeff Hoogland (the list started out as UR Delver).
I am also not a big fan of Serum Visions and prefer Opt. The idea is, that the ability to react during your opponents turn makes up for the lesser Cards you see.
The Flex Slots is also interesting - what are your opinions on Forked Bolt, Abrade, Burst Lightning and Jeskai Charm?
First Tests on XMage were quite promising, although there is a strategic depth in this deck which I am not used to. I would love to hear your opinions.
1
But to be fair, the matchups were 2x Bant Spirits, UW Spirits and BW Tokens, so all creature-based decks which really care about Thing in the Ice AND are struggling to handle Pyro Ascension.
I have to admit this finish gives me additional motivation to invest more effort into the deck. Because my last attempts were not that successful - as Rodebo pointed out before, the BGx matchup is horrible (or at least I do not see that many tools for it).
In the latest YouTube uploads by Jeff Hoogland there is a stream with Firemind's Research included. How are we feeling about this one?
1
And because most iterations of the deck want a maximum of 4 Aspect, playing Might as a 5th copy is also no consideration. So in my opinion, no, I think Might of the Masses is not worth a try.
2
To the PPTQ, here's how it went:
Round 1 Infect (2-1)
This is actually a matchup I would describe as close to unwinnable. I was lucky to draw my removal in time, and to counter his pump spells with Vines of Vastwood. Once the the creatures are done, you can race Infect pretty easily, because there is simplay nothing in your way.
Although, Game 2 was the
I boarded Hunt the Hunter and Natural State as removal and Vines as additional counter, for Ooze, Morphose and a Rancor.
Round 2 Ad Nauseam (2-0)
Not a lot to tell here. I finished him twice as he was not able to find his Combo quick enough. Game 2 Natural State was really helpful.
Boarding artifact and enchantment removal for creature removal and Ooze.
Round 3 4-Color Death Shadow (1-2)
That's a tough one. A lot of removal, Lingering Souls for blocking, counterspells, and Lilianas. Also, Death's Shadow is almost impossible to handle. My Opponent never made the mistake of relying on a single shadow and dying on the backswing, but was patient and killed me with Battle rage twice.
I managed to win Game 2 with Scavenging Ooze and a few protection spells.
Therefore, Boarding is 2nd Scavenging Ooze, 3rd Vines of Vastwood, Shaper's Sanctuary and Act of Aggression instead of some Rancors, Aspects and Deliverance.
Round 4 Humans (2-1)
This was awkward. The games were all very close, I actually won because my Opponent forgot about Reach on the Avatar of the Resolute TWICE. This, by the way, is because of Reach a very important card in the matchup. The most dangerous Cards in the matchup are Thalia (because of First Strike) and the Reflector Mage / Meddling Mage Combo, which can throw you back on the board really hard. But otherwise, the deck cannot handle your creatures effectively, so your chances of racing them are pretty good.
Sideboarding is just Ooze for Deliverance and a Mistcutter Hydra for a Morphose - Pro Blue can be relevant here.
Round 5 Humans (2-1)
This Humans Player was much more skilled. I managed to steal Game 1 with a simple attack into double pump - again, the unawareness of the Opponent for the deck is still an Advantage of this deck. Game 2 he is way ahead with massive creatures, but I managed to stabilize with Experiments and Geists. Here I learned, that the deck can build quiet s atronge defense as well. Unfortunately, he found his removal quicker than me. Game 3 I could win because he missed his land Drops - but still, the curve might have won the game anyway.
Here, Narnam Renegade really shined. Attacking into almost any blocker and get 2 damage or a dead blocker guaranteed is huge. After dying to pump spells in Game 1, my Opponent also really wanted to block my creatures.
Round 6 was an intentional draw against Jund. Sideboarding would be similar to the Death's Shadow Boarding.
In Top 8, I lost 0-2 to Mardu Pyromancer because of missing lands. Very frustrating, thanks to Steel Leaf Champion this matchup is actually quite good.
To my unusual Card choices:
Blossoming Defense
This could also be Vines Nr. 4. The unconditional pump for a single mana, even if there is just a CMC1 creature on the battlefield, can be relevant sometimes.
Dissenter's Deliverance
I used to play Gitaxian Probe when it was legal. Since the banning I looked for other cantrips to effectively reduce the number of Cards in the deck. I tried Manamorphose for a while, the DD is my latest Experiment. Having artifact removal Mainboard can be huge against Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge, Hollow One and Tron. In every other case, it is basically Horizon Canopy.
This is the plan - but I am still in testing here.
Prey Upon
I really like Dismember in the deck, but I wanted a "pain-free" alternative for other Aggro matchups. This also pairs well with Strangleroot Geist (killing a creature and getting an extra power) and Renegade (killing a creature with Deathtouch - although card disadvantage).
This also kills Thalia, cause First Strike is not applied while fighting.
Leatherback Baloth
This is simply Steel Leaf Champion Nr. 5. I thought the deck could need a bit more power in the CMC 3 Slot, and this is my current solution. While Champion is clearly the better Card, Baloth itself is not bad, so it's worth a try.
I was not impressed by Rhonas, since he is a bad topdeck on his own and requires a Setup. The other Option was Groundbreaker, which can steal games, but doesn't provide a real board Advantage if he doesn't kill the Opponent.