Looking at Ilidqn's list, the super major characters that are missing are just the rest of the nine titans,Gix and Ashnod, and some redos here and there.
Gix and Ashnod are confirmed not to be in the set.
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
There are 11369 creatures in the game. All of them die to removal. That doesn't mean the creature is bad.
This is especially true if you force someone to commit 2 or 3 cards just to get rid of 1.
And while JL will not be in the opening hand every time, when it does is when the real problems arise. For many commanders, this creates a larger gap than Mana Crypt/Sol Ring/Mana Vault, which are highly controversial cards in the format as well. I am willing to bet there are going to be a lot more times where JL shows up Turn 1 or 2 and wrecks a game than times where it is drawn turn 9 and does literally nothing. I've heard that argument for Sol Ring too many times t count.
You're missing the point. I'm not by any means saying any creature is bad. I'm saying getting them out turn 1, with few exceptions, isn't GOOD. Especially since you're using a disposable resource to do it, that will not be available in almost all cases later on when you need to cast it again and it costs 2 more. Most commanders aren't going to be good to have out t1, with no protection. It will inevitably draw any available removal, and set you back even further due to commander tax. Strategically, for nearly all commanders, it's just not a good play. And late game, your deck should already be built to compensate for commander tax increases, so JL shouldn't be necessary there either. It truly adds nothing to most decks that they don't already have available in other, better, cards.
And to your second point, if you use JL to get your commander out t1, you've also lost 2 cards when that removal spell hits - your commander and JL.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
You're boldly assuming each opponent will have removal turn 1, but the mana to cast that removal on turn 1 as well. Path or Swords might do it, but most removal is CMC 2 or higher.
Turn 1 Grand Arbiter turns the game on its head. Turn 1 Liliana, Heretical Healer + Flip is also very possible and very powerful.
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
Forgive my lack of expediency. No one cared about the Zendikar Rising crunch, so I didn't think anyone wanted them.
For what it's worth, I like these threads even if I don't usually post in them. They're good for easily seeing which cards are still possible, in terms of reprints.
I know this is gonna blow your mind...but there are formats besides commander! WotC use to make cards that functioned inside and outside commander. That shows creativity and critical thinking. This is a Wastes outside of commander, thats lazy. Fractured Powerstone was lazy because Mind Stone could also tap for a colorless but works everywhere.
Again other formats beside commander exists. My wording works like you said outside of commander and and exactly the same as the current card does in commander.
I know this is gonna blow your mind, but this is a set for commander. The cards are made for commander. They're going to be worded to work for commander.
And your wording DOES NOT work exactly the same in commander as the current card.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
Depends on the commander. The list is extremely long.
Selvala? Sure thats a lot of value fast
Tatyova turn 2? That gets obscene fast
A lot of 3-6 drop legends werent designed to be pooped out so fast and that can cause big problems really fast.
The thing is a lot of people like to use the dies to removal excuse, but that i dont think thats valid.
First, outside of cedh most people are removal light favoring whatever their gameplan is over shoring that strategy up. Then theres that most aim for ramp in their opening hand, meaning the odds they pitched what little removal they run are significantly higher.
Also dont forget resources. This is something a lot seem to just ignore. You dump out your 4 drop commander t1, thats more resources freed up for utility over the next few turns. Youre not tied up with that commander cost.
It becomes exceptionally easy to outrace a table, even more so when its a casual table.
Thats where this is going to have the most imbalanced impact.
I think you're wildly mistaken about removal in non-cedh. And that you have to outrace 3 or more opponents. Jeweled Lotus is the infect of mana rocks - nice to maybe knock out one opponent, but you're not likely to take the whole table.
Plus, if you think casual doesn't run a lot of removal due to not being more competitive, why the hell would they run Jeweled Lotus?
I'd have the opposite view if the JL mana could also be used to activate commander abilities, though. Then it'd justify the price tag it has now. But as it is, it's not worth playing just for the fraction of the time you'll have this in your opening hand.
WotC continued commitment to being lazy.
Having the text “3, Tap: Choose a legendary creature or planeswalker you control, in exile or in your command zone. You may pay life equal to the number of colors it is. If you do, draw a card.”
I just came up with that by myself. Yet WotC has a whole “d”ucking team working on it but the said ‘Eh i don’t want to think to hard, it’s easier if we just say commanders color identity.’
"Colors it is" is not necessarily the same as color identity. For example, Kenrith or Golos.
the fact that you might not use this card does not invalidate the fact that using it would make the deck better.
But that's barely. I wouldn't want to take anything out of any deck and making it less synergistic just for the chance of one out of twenty games I get to show off and then get reamed by the table.
Honestly, this card throws out subtlety in the hopes that no one can stop you. It's still a good card, but not the Commander destroyer, #1 card of all time some are making it out to be.
i disagree. if your deck leans on the commander in any way then using this will always be improvement. of course the degree of improvement depends on the deck and power level of the meta but even if you use in decks from casual end of the spectrum it will still be very good since decks at that power level tend to not have that much low cmc interaction to punish you. and on the competitive end of the spectrum... well people play gemstone cavern for a reason, casting 4cmc commander t1 is something people will want to do.
what i don't like is the play patterns it incentivizes - as you pointed out it strengthens all-in strategies and makes games more draw dependent. which is an unnecessary development for any format. but yes, the sky is not falling.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
Also, I think there's about six Etched reprints left to be revealed. Wonder if one is an Eldrazi?
Gix and Ashnod are confirmed not to be in the set.
You're missing the point. I'm not by any means saying any creature is bad. I'm saying getting them out turn 1, with few exceptions, isn't GOOD. Especially since you're using a disposable resource to do it, that will not be available in almost all cases later on when you need to cast it again and it costs 2 more. Most commanders aren't going to be good to have out t1, with no protection. It will inevitably draw any available removal, and set you back even further due to commander tax. Strategically, for nearly all commanders, it's just not a good play. And late game, your deck should already be built to compensate for commander tax increases, so JL shouldn't be necessary there either. It truly adds nothing to most decks that they don't already have available in other, better, cards.
And to your second point, if you use JL to get your commander out t1, you've also lost 2 cards when that removal spell hits - your commander and JL.
And why isn't Hullbreacher white? Ugh.
Other mana rocks do exist, so why wouldn't people have the mana for them on turn one, since we're already talking about having JL in hand on turn one? Everyone in favor of this is talking about best case scenario, with no expectation of any actual response from your opponents, in order to get out incredibly abusive things turn 1 like GAAIV, and declaring JL a good card because it can do that. And then I'm the one boldly assuming things. Jesus.
Path, StP, FoW/FoN the commander, Lightning Bolt gets a bunch of them, Darksteel Mutation/Lignify, Dark Ritual into Oath Of Liliana, Oubliette or Plaguecrafter (non-GAAIV), the list can go on and on. And these are cards that people already run across the board.
JL is going to be a niche card. relegated to a handful of decks when this all shakes out. Najeela, GAAIV, new Jhoira or Sai, Muldrotha (maybe), a few others. It's not a must-include in most decks by any means, because most of the time either there's no real advantage to having your commander out right away or you're just not playing that competitively to begin with.
And late game, if you actually need this to handle the commander tax, you're probably already in a bad spot anyhow.
For what it's worth, I like these threads even if I don't usually post in them. They're good for easily seeing which cards are still possible, in terms of reprints.
I know this is gonna blow your mind, but this is a set for commander. The cards are made for commander. They're going to be worded to work for commander.
And your wording DOES NOT work exactly the same in commander as the current card.
I think you're wildly mistaken about removal in non-cedh. And that you have to outrace 3 or more opponents. Jeweled Lotus is the infect of mana rocks - nice to maybe knock out one opponent, but you're not likely to take the whole table.
Plus, if you think casual doesn't run a lot of removal due to not being more competitive, why the hell would they run Jeweled Lotus?
I'd have the opposite view if the JL mana could also be used to activate commander abilities, though. Then it'd justify the price tag it has now. But as it is, it's not worth playing just for the fraction of the time you'll have this in your opening hand.
"Colors it is" is not necessarily the same as color identity. For example, Kenrith or Golos.
Gemstone Cavern isn't restricted Mana.
If your commander is integral to your strategy, why the hell would you want it on the board as fast as possible, just to eat removal? I would not want my commander in any deck t1 unless I could win t1, because all that is gonna do is make it cost 2 more when I can actually cast it again, and cost me a card slot where I could've had something useful on the board instead of Jeweled Lotus.
This wasn't known? I thought they were in a short story once, long ago.