Yea... I think you are right about Thought Erasure.
The Surveil abilities really string this deck together, just as Dissolve and Drown in Sorrow did with Scry in standard control decks of yore...
Here is my v3 after a bit of testing. Wilderness Reclamation should probably be cut for a third Hydroid Krasis, but hasn't caused me problems just yet...
Fun story: in a test match tonight, I growth spiral'ed on T2, and 2x on T3, drawing and dropping lands each time.
Had 6 mana t4... Dropped Soot and held up Essence Scatter... eventually won after dropping a Krasis for 10- very nice!
Hello. Posting a quick, fun Sultai Control brew here! Surprised I haven't seen any around... Growth Spiral and Wilderness Reclamation seems amazing to me so I wanted to make a control build around them!
T2 Growth Spiral is ridiculous and ramps you to 4 lands on T3, not to mention "breaks serve" and gets you 1/2 a turn ahead in games you go 2nd. You can then do T3 Ritual of Soot, or T3 Thought Erasure + hold for Syncopate or 2 mana removal. That seems really good to me in this format without any real (non-red) one mana removal!
I like that Wilderness Reclamation pays for itself the turn it comes down in a control deck, and that it allows you to attempt ambitious main phase feats thereafter without worry of tapping out on your opponents turn. And since it's effect works the turn it comes down, it's almost like getting a free turn! It synergizes extremely well with Pteramander, Hydroid Krasis, Chemister's Insight, Precognitive Perception, and Syncopate, too. Not sure about sideboard yet but I'd love to hear your ideas. I was thinking about Vraska PW, for starters...
Mana count:
B: 16, U: 15, G: 15
This count is based on a T3/4 BB sweeper being *the most needed play to survive*, in a worst-case scenario w/ a slow draw.
Any of Shock, Lightning Strike, Cast Down, Seal Away, or other instant speed removal, will absolutely punish that strategy (as they would any other creature enchantment strategy) to the point where you would not want to play that deck in standard constructed.
Besides 5 mana return to battlefield effects have not been competitive in any recent standard formats, and are probably too slow and un-impactful to matter here as well.
Honestly I think risk factor would be insane in a boros aggro deck as well. Good for late re-fuel. They'll be low hp, so they either die or you get a possibly 3 more threats.
Ewwwwww..... Yea I think you're right, Risk Factor is pretty busted. I didn't even consider that, it could totally slot in Mono Red or BR/Boros Aggro Decks to Refuel.... #Spicy
Mono-red was pretty obvious! Straight red burn should be possible in this format. But why not just splash blue for Ionize anyways then?
Still can't believe Risk Factor was printed. Soooooo strong.
you don't have insight in your V2 decklist, which is what I thought you were going for. also after watching risk factor at work, i honestly can't believe the card was printed. Talk about absolutely broken...
Edit: I now realize those two deck lists were from two separate people.
Yea I left it out in mine in favor of Anticipate for more early plays.
It may be more correct to play 2 Chemister's Insight instead though. Or even 3 as Mr. Rotten does. I haven't play-tested the deck yet.
One thing to note though is that you can pitch any card late to re-cast Risk Factor. It turns your bad draws into Risk Factors, which is amazing.
If the manabase is well built Field of Ruin won't do much against 3 coloured decks in terms of screwing their mana. We play Field of Ruin mainly to answer Search for Azcanta so a full playset seems overkill IMO. He plays Detection Tower over Field of Ruin in the UR version because it's the only realiable way of killing hexproof creatures if they manage to get to the battlefield. I think OP values more having a way of answering such threats than having Field of Ruin for Search for Azcanta. He could also add one copy of Memorial to War instead of a mountain so he haves an answer for that, wich may actually screw your opponents mana in some games (that sounds like fun).
I think Mission Briefing is overrated or a "trap" but i might be wrong. Firemind's Research also seems underwhelming in my eyes, if you don't play it in the early turns it's a very bad draw later in the game.
Need to do testing obviously but I can see 1x of Mission Briefing being amazing utility.
Firemind Research could be bad, but I like it in theory as it is easier to drop early than Ral and can be triggered at instant speed. Also it can be pitched to Risk Factor or Chemister's Insight late game, mitigating it's weakness as a top-deck somewhat.
Your iteration of the deck is more of a counter-burn deck, instead OP's deck is a full control deck with burn as a secondary win-con wich transforms to a counter-burn against other control decks with the sideboard.
Yep. I posted it here to help develop this color-combo. OPs deck may very well be simply better.
I guess OP plays Inescapable Blaze over Banefire because of the instant speed against control wich makes sense. Keep up the counter spells and burn them at the end of their turn, seems like a winning strategy to me.
Agree. I added singleton of it in my newer version. It seems very strong.
If you are playing only UR control instead of splashing for Grixis/Jeskai, I think you are definitely gonna want to go really low to avoid letting any hexproof creatures drop- Nullhide Ferox or Vine Mare will end games against this deck. Detection Tower could be a good answer too although I am not sure it is as good as Field of Ruin is for us...
I think you will want 4-of Field of Ruin to hate out 3 color or more decks.
Firemind's Research seems like a good 2-of for incremental value and win-condition.
Where are the singleton copies of Banefire + Mission Briefing though? I will brew something in a little while and post... EDIT- brewed- its just a sketch for now:
In this build I tried to see what could be done without pw/creature based wincons.
There are a lot of great burn spells in this format.
I like the idea of just counter-burning the opp to death, bypassing creatures/planeswalkers entirely.
Ral G2 should be a nice surprise as well.
I do agree with posters here that some number of Thought Erasure in the main could be correct - after all, Thoughtseize was. However, just because one was, doesn't mean the other is.
Because of the Surveil mechanic, I think Thought Erasure and Sinister Sabotage largely nullify the need for Opt or Anticipate.
I'd consider them automatic 4-ofs for this reason alone. You can always Surveil away excess Thought Erasure's late game if needed...
In other articles I've seen, basically the choice comes down to do you want to run WW for Settle the Wreckage or BB for Vraska's Contempt. General consensus is that Contempt is probably better, for now. A mana base as below will give 18U / 16B / 8W plus two Field of Ruin, which isn't a bad start. Yes, it's a little slow for T3 UU, T4 BB (would need 19U and 18B), so potentially one could switch out a couple of the Islands for Dimir Guildgates if things are slow enough in your meta. I'm tempted by one Arch of Orazca or Memorial to Genius as more card draw, but we'll see.
I'm not sure the mana is good enough to support a T4 double-white sweeper.
I'd probably go with Ritual of Soot and Vraska's Contempt to stick with BB mana base.
Field of Ruin is great but very tough on the mana base.
I'd maybe advocate hating out problematic lands with Unmoored Ego and playing 2-of Evolving Wilds instead.
Ok- fixed.
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
Umm, but not Vine Mare? it's already a dominant force in the meta, and counters take care of it fine. I don't think fine tuning a deck towards sacrifice is a solid way to build, just because of 1 card in the format.
Yea but Ferox can be put onto the battlefield from an unlucky Thought Erasure. We need someway to get rid of it if it should somehow land.
I only added two instant speed sacrifice cards to deal with it MD. The rest are just counters as you have already said are good against it.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s).
We had a lengthy discussion on this card a while ago, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth it. The applications are too narrow and with Fatal Push rotating out, your best bet will be Dead Weight.
Fair enough- I did not add Fungal Infection to my SB though, and it was just an idea. Dead weight looks fine though too.
Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
VS Stompy you'll only be able to do that on the draw... I guess it could be frequent enough with current red taking a back step, but idk if it justifies brewing for it maindeck.
yea its just a spicy SB card to help against combo matchups or hate-targets...
Yea- it's an interesting card, but I think you would get more advantage by not turning on their MB creature removal spells G1. It's also 6 mana, which is a lot. I could totally be wrong though.
If you're playing control 6 mana is not a tall ordeal at all. It has everything a control card would like.
I totally understand. It is a very strong card. I could definitely see it being built around for the main deck.
For me in this build though I wanted to turn off creature removals and force opp to SB radically G2/3. I could see it working as a 4x in the SB too although it does compete for space with Deathgorge Scavenger.
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
I thought a lot about how to beat Nullhide Ferox in this build. I expect it to be everywhere in the meta.
The best tools against it we have are counters and sac effects. This deck has 10 ways to get it maindeck.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s). Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
The Surveil abilities really string this deck together, just as Dissolve and Drown in Sorrow did with Scry in standard control decks of yore...
Here is my v3 after a bit of testing.
Wilderness Reclamation should probably be cut for a third Hydroid Krasis, but hasn't caused me problems just yet...
2 Hydroid Krasis
// 1 Enchantment
1 Wilderness Reclamation
// 18 Instant
1 Moment of Craving
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Cast Down
1 Vraska's Contempt
2 Essence Scatter
4 Sinister Sabotage
4 Growth Spiral
3 Chemister's Insight
3 Breeding Pool
3 Watery Grave
3 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
// 7 Sorcery
4 Thought Erasure
3 Ritual of Soot
// 4 Sorcery // Instant
4 Discovery // Dispersal
Fun story: in a test match tonight, I growth spiral'ed on T2, and 2x on T3, drawing and dropping lands each time.
Had 6 mana t4... Dropped Soot and held up Essence Scatter... eventually won after dropping a Krasis for 10- very nice!
Lands seem better now though, 16B, 16U, 15G...
4 Pteramander
2 Hydroid Krasis
Planeswalkers(1):
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Enchantments(1):
1 Wilderness Reclamation
Sorceries(7):
3 Cry of the Carnarium
4 Discovery // Dispersal
Instants(19):
1 Moment of Craving
2 Cast Down
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Vraska's Contempt
2 Essence Scatter
4 Sinister Sabotage
4 Growth Spiral
3 Chemister's Insight
3 Breeding Pool
4 Watery Grave
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Woodland Cemetery
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
Growth Spiral and Wilderness Reclamation seems amazing to me so I wanted to make a control build around them!
T2 Growth Spiral is ridiculous and ramps you to 4 lands on T3, not to mention "breaks serve" and gets you 1/2 a turn ahead in games you go 2nd. You can then do T3 Ritual of Soot, or T3 Thought Erasure + hold for Syncopate or 2 mana removal. That seems really good to me in this format without any real (non-red) one mana removal!
I like that Wilderness Reclamation pays for itself the turn it comes down in a control deck, and that it allows you to attempt ambitious main phase feats thereafter without worry of tapping out on your opponents turn. And since it's effect works the turn it comes down, it's almost like getting a free turn! It synergizes extremely well with Pteramander, Hydroid Krasis, Chemister's Insight, Precognitive Perception, and Syncopate, too. Not sure about sideboard yet but I'd love to hear your ideas. I was thinking about Vraska PW, for starters...
Mana count:
B: 16, U: 15, G: 15
This count is based on a T3/4 BB sweeper being *the most needed play to survive*, in a worst-case scenario w/ a slow draw.
2x Syncopate
4x Sinister Sabotage
Removal (8):
1x Moment of Craving
1x Cast Down
2x Assassin's Trophy
1x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cry of the Carnarium
1x Ritual of Soot
3x Thought Erasure
1x Discovery // Dispersal
Instants (8):
4x Growth Spiral
3x Chemister's Insight
1x Precognitive Perception
Enchantments (2):
2x Wilderness Reclamation
WinCons (6):
4x Pteramander
2x Hydroid Krasis
2x Breeding Pool
4x Watery Grave
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
3x Woodland Cemetery
3x Drowned Catacomb
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island
Any of Shock, Lightning Strike, Cast Down, Seal Away, or other instant speed removal, will absolutely punish that strategy (as they would any other creature enchantment strategy) to the point where you would not want to play that deck in standard constructed.
Besides 5 mana return to battlefield effects have not been competitive in any recent standard formats, and are probably too slow and un-impactful to matter here as well.
Mono-red was pretty obvious! Straight red burn should be possible in this format. But why not just splash blue for Ionize anyways then?
Still can't believe Risk Factor was printed. Soooooo strong.
4x Lightning Strike + 2x Justice Strike plus 3x Settle the Wreckage AND 1x Cleansing Nova should be plenty to deal with threats G1. You probably don't need Cleansing Nova MB at all. Your SB + main may have too many sweepers...
Fight with Fire should maybe be a 1/1 split with Banefire, or replaced altogether by Inescapable Blaze.
Yea I left it out in mine in favor of Anticipate for more early plays.
It may be more correct to play 2 Chemister's Insight instead though. Or even 3 as Mr. Rotten does. I haven't play-tested the deck yet.
One thing to note though is that you can pitch any card late to re-cast Risk Factor. It turns your bad draws into Risk Factors, which is amazing.
I like it. I think you are right about Risk Factor too. Is too good to leave out.
Here's a V2 effort...
2x Search for Azcanta
Instants (25):
3x Ionize
3x Sinister Sabotage
2x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
2x Vraska's Contempt
2x Vona's Hunger
4x Lightning Strike
1x Mission Briefing
1x Inescapable Blaze
4x Risk Factor
2x Anticipate
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
1x Banefire
Lands (26):
4x Steam Vents
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Dragonskull Summit
3x Sulfur Falls
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Mountain
2x Evolving Wilds
3x Moment of Craving
2x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Negate
2x Duress
1x Essence Scatter
1x Unmoored Ego
1x Vraska's Contempt
1x Vona's Hunger
Yea I think you are right here. I moved to 2/2 split of Field of Ruin and Detection Tower.
Need to do testing obviously but I can see 1x of Mission Briefing being amazing utility.
Firemind Research could be bad, but I like it in theory as it is easier to drop early than Ral and can be triggered at instant speed. Also it can be pitched to Risk Factor or Chemister's Insight late game, mitigating it's weakness as a top-deck somewhat.
Yep. I posted it here to help develop this color-combo. OPs deck may very well be simply better.
Agree. I added singleton of it in my newer version. It seems very strong.
New version adding Risk Factor:
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Firemind's Research
Instants (30):
4x Ionize
4x Risk Factor
4x Lightning Strike
2x Chemister's Insight
2x Sinister Sabotage
2x Syncopate
2x Anticipate
2x Blink of an Eye
2x Shock
1x Essence Scatter
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Inescapable Blaze
1x Mission Briefing
2x Banefire
Lands (26):
2x Field of Ruin
2x Detection Tower
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
3x Izzet Guildgate
1x Evolving Wilds
6x Island
4x Mountain
4x Negate
4x Fiery Cannonade
2x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
2x The Mirari Conjecture
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Essence Scatter
1x Mission Briefing
I think you will want 4-of Field of Ruin to hate out 3 color or more decks.
Firemind's Research seems like a good 2-of for incremental value and win-condition.
Where are the singleton copies of Banefire + Mission Briefing though? I will brew something in a little while and post... EDIT- brewed- its just a sketch for now:
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Firemind's Research
Instants (28):
4x Chemister's Insight
4x Ionize
4x Lightning Strike
4x Anticipate
2x Sinister Sabotage
2x Syncopate
2x Shock
2x Opt
1x Essence Scatter
1x Disdainful Stroke
2x Mission Briefing
1x Banefire
1x Fight With Fire
Lands (26):
4x Field of Ruin
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
3x Izzet Guildgate
1x Evolving Wilds
6x Island
4x Mountain
4x Negate
4x Fiery Cannonade
2x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
2x The Mirari Conjecture
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Essence Scatter
1x Mission Briefing
In this build I tried to see what could be done without pw/creature based wincons.
There are a lot of great burn spells in this format.
I like the idea of just counter-burning the opp to death, bypassing creatures/planeswalkers entirely.
Ral G2 should be a nice surprise as well.
2x Firemind's Research
2x Search for Azcanta
Instants (20):
4x Sinister Sabotage
2x Ionize
2x Syncopate
3x Vraska's Contempt
2x Vona's Hunger
4x Lightning Strike
2x Chemister's Insight
1x Mission Briefing
Sorceries (10):
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Notion Rain
1x Banefire
1x Fight with Fire
4x Steam Vents
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Dragonskull Summit
3x Sulfur Falls
3x Island
3x Swamp
1x Mountain
1x Evolving Wilds
3x Moment of Craving
2x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Negate
2x Duress
1x Essence Scatter
1x Unmoored Ego
1x Vraska's Contempt
1x Vona's Hunger
Because of the Surveil mechanic, I think Thought Erasure and Sinister Sabotage largely nullify the need for Opt or Anticipate.
I'd consider them automatic 4-ofs for this reason alone. You can always Surveil away excess Thought Erasure's late game if needed...
I'm not sure the mana is good enough to support a T4 double-white sweeper.
I'd probably go with Ritual of Soot and Vraska's Contempt to stick with BB mana base.
Field of Ruin is great but very tough on the mana base.
I'd maybe advocate hating out problematic lands with Unmoored Ego and playing 2-of Evolving Wilds instead.
Too unreliable to be a win con imo. Is a really cool card otherwise though.
Here's my esper control build.
The SB will definitely require some tuning...
3x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Creatures (2):
2x Chromium, the Mutable
Instants (17):
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Vraska's Contempt
3x Cast Down
2x Vona's Hunger
2x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
1x Price of Fame
1x Mission Briefing
Sorceries (10):
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Notion Rain
2x Secrets of the Golden City
2x Search for Azcanta
Lands (26):
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Isolated Chapel
3x Island
3x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Negate
3x Moment of Craving
2x Ritual of Soot
1x The Eldest Reborn
1x The Mirari Conjecture
1x Vraska's Contempt
1x Price of Fame
1x Vona's Hunger
1x Unmoored Ego
Yea but Ferox can be put onto the battlefield from an unlucky Thought Erasure. We need someway to get rid of it if it should somehow land.
I only added two instant speed sacrifice cards to deal with it MD. The rest are just counters as you have already said are good against it.
Fair enough- I did not add Fungal Infection to my SB though, and it was just an idea. Dead weight looks fine though too.
yea its just a spicy SB card to help against combo matchups or hate-targets...
I totally understand. It is a very strong card. I could definitely see it being built around for the main deck.
For me in this build though I wanted to turn off creature removals and force opp to SB radically G2/3. I could see it working as a 4x in the SB too although it does compete for space with Deathgorge Scavenger.
What is your favored build for Sultai Control in this format?
Wouldn't mind merging but it's up to you- just want to talk about this deck and what it might look like!
The best tools against it we have are counters and sac effects. This deck has 10 ways to get it maindeck.
I expect them all to be using Llanowar Elves to ramp it out turn 3 though, so, might be that we get more maindeck Cast Down and/or sideboard Fungal Infection (which seems amazing against x/1s).
Unmoored Ego would be a great way to hate it out T3 too, ideally preceded by a big fat Syncopate or Essence Scatter in the opponents turn.
4x Vraska, Relic Seeker
Instants (17):
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Vraska's Contempt
3x Assassin's Trophy
2x Vona's Hunger
2x Syncopate
1x Essence Scatter
1x Cast Down
1x Mission Briefing
Sorceries (11):
4x Thought Erasure
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Secrets of the Golden City
2x Notion Rain
1x Gaea's Blessing
2x Search for Azcanta
Lands (26):
4x Watery Grave
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Hinterland Harbor
2x Woodland Cemetery
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Evolving Wilds
4x Deathgorge Scavenger
4x Negate
1x Unmoored Ego
2x Moment of Craving
2x Ritual of Soot
1x Vona's Hunger
1x Assassin's Trophy
4x Dimir Spybug
4x Murmuring Mystic
1x Mnemonic Betrayal