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  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Quote from H3RAC71TU5 »
    It's not so much wrong as it is less precise language, something we usually tolerate in colloquial contexts. You're right that people wont ever learn to be more precise if they aren't corrected, that is, assuming that they need to be corrected and aren't just using broad language.


    I'm fine with calling it either; the distinction doesn't bother me.


    I'd say the distinction is important though, because it relates to the rules of logic and we need it to evaluate your argument. To wit, is the proposition
    "Theros is Greco-Roman" of the form "X is A and B" or of the form "X is A or B"? If it's the former, then I'm inclined to agree with you. Theros as a setting is pretty much pre-Roman Greece, right? There's overall an absence of overt, distinctly non-Greek Roman content in the setting to support the first claim. If it's the second, though--which I think is both a probable and charitable interpretation--then it's basically correct. It would be better to say it's not necessary to call Theros "Greco-Roman" since it can be described as just Greek.

    I also think that this distinction can come back to haunt you since the claim you're calling wrong is technically just imprecise. And it's imprecise to call something which is imprecise, wrong. So by your own standards, you'd be wrong.

    Finally, I think there are some nuances to this situation which are in need of further analysis. It seems that everyone accepts that Theros is pretty much a pop-culture, "resonance" depiction of Greek culture. This version of Greek culture that we modern people remember are selections of the Greeks which in a huge way were passed to the west by the Romans, and from the west into modernity. They are the aspects of Greek culture that the Romans thought were important. To say nothing of the process of distortion which occurs with this diffusion. Is the Roman influence at this level something we can discount even if Theros is specifically about Greek culture, given the way it's about Greek culture is at least a little Roman as a consequence of it being extremely pop culture? E.g., we have examples of Zeus elevating a heroic champion in many myths, and examples of Zeus striking down mortals, but does Zeus ever strike down his own champion as Heliod does Elspeth? I'm not an expert on Greek mythology, but I can't think of a myth where this happens. This narrative element actually gives me some paterfamilias vibes, which suggests Roman influence at a more covert level in Theros. That might be too subtle to make the term "Greco-Roman" feel justified, but I think that comes down to subjective aesthetic considerations.

    I dunno, interesting topic, though.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Quote from H3RAC71TU5 »
    This argument seems to ignore the fact that the phrase "Greco-Roman" pretty much exists in the first place because in popular culture they're largely conflated, a conflation of those cultures which occurs because of their perceived similarity, and the point that Theros can be characterized as purely Greek in its source material is the kind of nit-picking detail that the general audience doesn't care about. Probably why people were calling Theros "Greco-Roman" to begin with.



    They can not care about it and still be wrong. How does one stop being wrong if nobody takes the time to correct them, nit-picky or otherwise? We’ve all got our prerogatives.


    It's not so much wrong as it is less precise language, something we usually tolerate in colloquial contexts. You're right that people wont ever learn to be more precise if they aren't corrected, that is, assuming that they need to be corrected and aren't just using broad language.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    This argument seems to ignore the fact that the phrase "Greco-Roman" pretty much exists in the first place because in popular culture they're largely conflated, a conflation of those cultures which occurs because of their perceived similarity, and the point that Theros can be characterized as purely Greek in its source material is the kind of nit-picking detail that the general audience doesn't care about. Probably why people were calling Theros "Greco-Roman" to begin with.

    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Oko, Thief of Crowns
    They stretched themselves a little thin with a pastiche of fully fairy tales and fully Arthurian world, felt weird and neither got totally developed (although that can be fixed with returns to the plane). So it would have been really hard to add Shakespearean elements into the mix. But if they had done that specifically with Oko, I agree that'd make him a more satisfying character.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Heraldic Banner
    This card manages to make you feel pretty good for paying 3 for a mana rock.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue
    Quote from Buffsam89 »


    So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.


    For real? So saying fantasy shouldn’t dip too much into realism means I wish it was all white? Was it because I took issue with the point of this character being “needed”? As that means it’s forced? I think that spin would give sir mix-a-lot a run for his money.


    Perhaps you weren't reflecting very much on what you were writing. Or maybe you're in denial about your true feelings. Who knows? But it feels increasingly bizarre to me that you came to this thread being so upset and expressing such animus against "SJWs" when your point is that WotC actually needs to do better than Throne of Eldraine. *****' amen, dude.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue
    Quote from Buffsam89 »


    Ah yes. More character assassination based purely on assumptions. Please, point to where I said this. I’ll be more than happy to wait.



    Sure thing:

    don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.

    Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.


    Emphasis added.

    So, you wrote that but you expected us to interpret it in this context as something other than "I want my fantasy card game to be all white people"? C'mon.

    You see, I’m a 30 something White male. What I also am is a father of 2 children, one of which is a 7yo stepdaughter who is black. We live in a small town, mostly white peeps. She just started second grade and is currently the only child in her grade that is “caramel” as she calls it.

    A few things I’ve experienced first hand, that I’m 100% certain none of you SJW’s(yeah, flag me) have ever had to experience is trying to explain to a 7yo why she isn’t white. Why all of her friends are white. Why all of the things she likes feature mostly white people. She has 2 Disney princesses to choose from, or she immediately questions if she should be that character for Halloween or not. My 7yo has chosen to be Minnie Mouse. She could have been Moana, or that one from Princess and the frog, but she chose Minnie Mouse. She adores the other Disney princesses, so the only reason I can assume she chose neither is because she feels she can’t. Why does she get 2 choices?

    Same here, how is “normal” 4 choices(sorry sap, like 3 of those are actually recognizable as PoC, the others are for sure reaches). You took the opportunity to make female Knights feel normal(coincidently, they are all White) by pushing them hard enough into your fantasy setting that it feels normal. Why not do the exact same with PoC?

    I’m done. You people go right ahead and sit up there on your high-horses. Cool beans. But you don’t know me. You don’t know who I am. And you certainly don’t know the life I’ve lied. So go ahead and be fine with a this showing here. I guarantee if my daughter was old enough, she would be underwhelmed with the showing of people who share her characteristics.

    Again, *****ty people, all of you.


    I see that you chose to ignore how in my comment you just replied to, I suggested our positions on tokenism are in agreement? So I'll repeat myself: you're right, WotC throwing in a token or two of PoC is not the same as giving representation. But I'm far from being a person who is giving them nothing but praise for Throne of Eldraine. Earlier in that thread I called it bourgeois and romanticist, which for me is a pretty scathing criticism.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue
    Quote from Buffsam89 »
    Please, I beg you, call me a racist. No need to tiptoe around me with that nonsense. I’ll go to bat for my beliefs and not be shouted down by anybody. You shamed the other user for refusing to engage, you will not get that same luxury here.


    Well, I'd like to applaud you for your conviction. It goes without saying I consider it misguided, but it's something. I would venture to say you could even be a good man, if only you chose a better principle to live by than "adamantly maintain at all costs that I'm totally not racist." So don't go saying I never gave you any credit. Wink

    That said, there's no tiptoeing going on here. Just asserting that you're racist is not how it works. The personal biases or prejudices that you may or may not have against PoC is kind of small fry compared to the bigger issue: whether the argument you're making is racist. Excessive focus on whether an individual is racist misses the important relationship between the underlying ideas being expressed and the systems in place in society.

    Why be ok with just a sprinkle of PoC if you’re so adamant that this is fantasy and you can make that whatever you wish? Why not give relevant back story as to how a singular black woman was able to achieve royalty status and become knighted in the 4 courts, as she is clearly of a minority race on her own home plane? @gutterstorm makes a valid point, but not in the way they had expected. They could literally be any color, so what is the significance here? Why not a Latino? Asian? Or anything in between? What separates her from her peers?

    I can assure you that PoC would choose relevance over existence. I’m glad your ok with simply making sure the boxes are checked, but I’m not.

    Again, sh***y human beings, all of you. Hell, you judged me and you don’t even know me. That tells me all I need to know about you.


    I think you and I have made quite similar points about tokenism, perhaps we're actually in agreement there?

    Now, when you went to say that your ideal fantasy world meant no black people, then maybe you were being just a little overconfident about your ability to stand your ground...
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue

    It’s also pretty disheartening to associate some of those comments with someone being a racist. If anything, that’s more annoying than the hot takes. Oh, you don’t see how this can be possible because source material? Racist. Don’t understand the role of the character? Racist. I love it. All of you guys high-fiving and doing victory laps for calling somebody racist, on the internet. Good for you.

    For instance-

    I think or at least hope WOTC sees discussions like this and realizes exactly why a character and card like this are needed.


    I don’t see why they are needed. This makes it sound forced, and inevitably leads to “token” status. @highholder makes a valid point, though you can not determine ethnicity through suits of armor. It is a perfectly reasonable to ask how this character came to be in this setting.

    Then there are those using the “‘cuz fantasy” to explain it away. Well, to me, fantasy is used to sever ties with reality. Injecting realism via PC “checkboxes” crushes that in totality. I’m not saying they shouldn’t do this, but as mentioned above, you end up creating “token” characters just to please the masses. That’s not creativity, that’s being lazy.

    Either way, I just can’t believe this discussion is even allowed to exist. Both the comments that cross the line and those here on the last page taking continued shots at another user, valid or not. You’re all pretty s****y human beings, just saying.


    Not sure why it's such a priority for you to offer up apologia for racist comments. I'm disinclined to give your judgments about other people's character much stock.

    Quote from Buffsam89 »
    Ah, yes, PoC will surely hang their hat on this achievement, being represented on a single card, without any context, in a TCG designed for tweens. Present them their participation trophy and call it a day, #winning.


    Flip that around and ask yourself why anyone could complain about something so trivial. A thing so trivial that you even saw fit to post comments about the issue. You're not being very honest.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue
    Quote from HighHolder »
    Forgive my ignorance, but are there lots of dark skinned people in this set/plane?
    If there are, then having a black queen makes perfect sense. If there are not, then it makes no sense because kings and queens usually inherit titles, not take them, so they are usually the same race as the general populace.
    Edit: from the current spoiler i see zero other black people, which does make this queen kind of bizarre.
    It would be the equivalent of Henry the eigth having a black queen from Africa. Not impossible, but definitely strange.


    Not exactly the point you were raising, but if Linden is basically the only PoC being depicted, that's tokenism which is also bad. I "spent an hour" reviewing the spoiled cards and it looks like there's a couple of examples of nonwhite characters depicted in each color. White has the most legendary depictions of PoC. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions.

    And if I may say, I think Linden being black does matter. It matters to PoC whether they are represented or not in the game. Instead I would argue, if you're complaining about PoC getting representation, regardless of your rationale, it is *without exception* racist. This is really simple. It's 2019 guys, try not being racist please.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] Mothership spoilers 9/16— Queen Linden and her retinue
    Quote from Boreez »
    Quote from H3RAC71TU5 »
    Quote from VariSami »
    https://scryfall.com/search?as=grid&order=name&q=type:human block:akh

    There are a total of 58 results to spend 'an hour' looking at, proving that Mr. Bhogal83 has done *none* of the research on the matter. They also state that none of the examples provided show people with skin tones that befit people of European origin (who, may I remind everyone, includes people from the Mediterranean).

    I submit to the jury of public opinion whose case was properly argued and who failed to address any of the points raised, as had been put in the complaint by Mr. Bhogal83 in an earlier post.


    Is it so much to ask that if you start an argument, you should see it through? Has the valor of the right fallen so low that at every turn they are opposed they resort to intellectual cowardice?

    Or should it not come as a surprise that those who have admitted from their own mouths that they hate justice, also hate honor?


    The hilarious part is that despite his "I'll no longer be checking this thread", everyone knows he is checking the thread. Shaking, cdovered in sweat, and considering it better to have made it out alive than to lose more of his dignity.


    I'd like to think so. But I'm especially disappointed that I didn't get to ding him for the error he made conflating an analogy with equating. A critical analytic difference!
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Not a spoiler but confirms that another errata wave is coming
    Quote from italofoca »
    Errata is commonfare in card games, pretty much everyone is used to it.

    But yeah the whole Warlock type felt totally unnecessary... I guess its ok for as long as they keep mixing up types like black shamans and wizards.

    I hated when they started to make every red mage a shaman even when there was nothing shamanistic about the creature.


    I like warlocks. But I agree that sometimes they create overly broad tribes that end up sucking all the flavor out of something that could be its own type (e.g., rakshasa are cat demons, much like angels are bird humans? Please, less of this WotC). And all the shaman everything not just in red but taking up a lot of space in black and green was totally an eye sore. I'd also like them to take an ax to the zombie type and delineate varieties of undead better, with some tribes getting highlights based on setting. All the Theros zombies could have been shades, for example, which are much cooler.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Not a spoiler but confirms that another errata wave is coming
    Quote from foam_dome »
    Why am I buying physical cards if hundreds, if not thousands are going to be inaccurate? Every burn spell, tons of creatures.

    If WotC wants to invalidate thousands of cards they sold to us because "lol flavor" then they should be buying back old copies and replacing them with newly printed, accurate versions.


    This is an incredibly dumb line of thinking, we're so deeply entwined with technology at this point that familiarizing ourselves with Oracle text isn't that hard

    The cards aren't invalidated just because the printed wording isn't up to date, and Wizards isn't going to waste their time or money printing "updated" versions with each errata just because a very tiny minority of people find it mildly inconvenient

    I'd rather they make periodic improvements to the game and retrofit preexisting cards into those changes than let it stagnate in those areas, and I would want them to put their resources into anything other than pointless reprints of cards with updated Oracle text


    Errata is something they need to be careful with since it is a fact that some people are bothered by it and this cannot be so easily dismissed. If they actually did have to reimburse people with updated cards they would probably only issue errata when absolutely necessary, which ought to be the standard. Although I'm not sure such a program is ultimately practical.

    I think "noble" is a pretty egregious example of errata since a previous errata got rid of the "lord" subtype and now we're getting a rebranded version. They could have just kept "lord" honestly which makes the change to printed cards feel especially frivolous.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] - r/MagicArena Spoiler -
    Quote from keoten »
    Quote from Courier7 »
    A mythic Disperse should put the card into your hand, especially if it is named "Petty Theft".
    Quote from Xcric »
    i'm not really a fan of its name. what's it borrowing? the name implies theft not bounce.

    Quote from NerdSoda »

    Don't get me wrong, the card is good, the flavor is just off.


    Yeah the name and the effect are massively incongruous. I wonder if he did not originally steal artifacts for a turn.
    Quote from SavannahLion »
    I missed the part with Flash, I was just disappointed with the "your opponent controls" part.

    I guess it's OK as a defensive combat trick or to get a Planeswalker off the board but not much else. I would happily pay an extra blue mana or all blue if I could target any nonland permanent OR target my opponents lands as well.

    Well, it does say petty theft. So she feels bad and gives it back to its owner!


    I think the flavor is supposed to be, the fairy steals something, the thing is stolen and goes away (is bounced). But the fairy isn't particularly interested in keeping the stolen thing, she pawns it off. The owner can get it back by paying its mana cost again to the pawn shop.

    Similar flavor is sometimes used with discard effects. The flavor of theft need not always be totally literal in terms of actual in game effect.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] 5 “second card drawn” mechanic cards
    Quote from Xcric »
    Too many mechanics, not enough exploration of those mechanics.


    I think I agree with you in part. This set feels a little unfocused. Diverse mechanics can improve gameplay experience but they have to create a dynamic to do so. This is somewhere farther along on the "Timespiral pile of unrelated mechanics" spectrum.

    Conversely, there's a design trend of repetition that I find really Melvin-jarring. Like they find a new favorite mini-mechanic and flood the set with it.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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