Divest is in the board specifically against Vine Mare, if one of those hits the board against this deck it folds like a wet paper bag.....The one thing I'm not a real fan of is the lack of real sweepers in this deck combination so I've been thinking about maybe doing Esper?
Any thoughts or comments are appreciated!
The Eldest Reborn or Plaguecrafter are both possible answers to Vine Mare (or Carnage Tyrants), and play well in Grixis. Keeping the rest of the board clear is pretty achievable, and the so the edict effect can be pretty reliable. Eldest Reborn has some great synergy with Nicol Bolas, as well (and a flavor win!).
Not sure I'm fan of Divest, since that kind of matchup gets topdecky pretty quick after you stabilize the board. You have to draw the Divest pretty early for it to have any impact.
Seeing as the PTQ winners were announced today, and the Jeskai deck that went 9-0 did not contain Opt, Risk Factor, Shock or Lightning Strike, and it had Cleansing Nova and Settle the Wreckage in the 75 in the same numbers I gave, I'm going to call that I wasn't just blowing smoke up my butt when I was saying what I was saying. Obviously if the Jeskai deck - a deck that had access to do those cards - chose not to run them in favour of superior cards, then that means they were considered to be bad or at least less good than the 75 they actually went with. And if it's not good enough for Jeskai, then it's not good enough for Izzet either, because if the deck could have been Izzet, it would have been. Again, the mostly blue control deck was white as its second core, not the red.
That deck was clearly a combo deck of make infinite mana with Gateway, dome them with an Explosion/Banefire. I don't think that asserts your point at all. It's much closer to the new edition of turbo-fog.
Yes, of course... I did mention that :/ I'd run 8 Lava Coils if I was allowed to - that would instantly make Izzet a lot better. I get the impression you're not reading what I am saying, responding to a position I did not hold, etc. Obviously you have 4 copies, and you ideally need it for more than 4 threats throughout a game. You can't hit everything with it.
You seem to hold at least two positions simultaneously:
(Honestly. I think red control cards are the most overrated in all of standard ... They suck against Rekindling Phoenix. Heck, they even suck against Conclave Cavalier. They are, in general, bad against green decks - they are dead to Steel-Leaf Champion and anything bigger than that ... The format is just really unkind to Red. Removal spells, if they are doing damage, need to deal 4 damage minimum, and Exiling is rather important.)
You know, except the ones that aren't bad, and actually do those things /eyeroll
Almost every Benalia deck I have played has had astronomically high win rates, so I don't know which opponents you are playing against but the card is very good and it does very well against control if you get it past a counter. I also still play against it a lot. On MTG Goldish, it is the #1 dominating card when averaging 3 rounds of tournament data so far. This can change, but it's seeing a lot of use and the card is winning.
History is fine. It's a slow 3 mana 4/4 with some upside. It overperforms because of Llanowar elves and the relative strength of GW cards around it. I don't think any specific answer outside of normal sweepers is necessary.
Also, playing Azorius does not have the color problems you're talking about. It's mostly a blue deck with a white splash, and it plays just fine, even without Hallowed Fountain. Even the Jeskai deck I run is over 55% blue cards (and only 12% red, again very minimal red).
I played about two dozen games with Rosum's Esper Control today. The mana was very medium, and I missed double blue on three or double black on four about 20% of the time. I imagine the fail rate on other three color decks is similar. Mulligan rate was about twice that of UR, usually for color reasons. Still went 8-4 in matches, though, because Teferi is indeed busted.
Counter-burn isn't a real thing. That's just a word people use to either mischaracterize the flexibility of direct damage spells, or to describe the bad deck they made because they don't understand the concept of tempo or why Delver of Secrets is good.
I'd hardly control these control lists "tempo" decks....
I don't think you understood what I said. Counterburn is synonymous with "bad tempo deck", since the strategy doesn't ever work.
On the other hand, a thing like Shock is certainly a tempo card - it very often trades up in mana spent, and allows you to spend your mana very efficiently on your opponent's turn. That can be quite valuable in a control archetype, as efficient removal wins a lot of games by taking back the initiative. Reload via whatever mechanism you have, or have a clear board on five for a Teferi/Ral. Pretty hard to do in UW, since removal starts at 2. Two mana removal on the draw is horrible, and those "bad" one mana spells win a ton of games from that position.
This has been the basis of Modern UWR control for many years, for example. This is Standard, so not every removal spell has to be Lightning Bolt quality to be worth playing. UWR in Modern also has the ability to switch its role to the aggressor in bad matchups. UR and Jeskai can do that in Standard (and UR does it better), while Esper or UW have no ability to do so, unless one builds some kind of crazy transformational sideboard.
I own (in paper) probably every control archetype that has existed in the past five or ten years, from Legacy Miracles/Czech Pile to Modern UWR/Miracles/Tron (yes, Tron is a control deck) to Standard UW Rev durdlefiesta. From all of that, I have learned many things, including that role flexibility is hugely valuable (so don't underrate the bad red cards). I'm not saying that the white core is bad (it isn't), it's just not as necessary as you suggest, and has significant holes that need to be filled by other colors anyway.
Honestly. I think red control cards are the most overrated in all of standard, and that control decks really need to look to a White core for their removal package. I just see no way to get around not having Settle the Wreckage and Cleansing Nova. This standard format is so diverse and the threats so punishing that Red removal really just doesn't cut it.
This is actually the point in time with the smallest card pool available to standard. Threats aren't particularly punishing, compared to other standards - not sure what you really mean, here. Cleansing Nova is very medium - it's a million years too slow alone, except maybe against specifically GW, and I guess you just got a bunch of opponents who failed to play around Settle.
Shock/Lightning Strike are blanked so much by Selesnya tokens, that you're going to be 2-for-1'd all of the time unless you're lucky to find a good target (Knight of Grace).
Fiery Cannonade is completely fine against GW tokens. The best part is that they don't have an opportunity to play around it, unlike Settle.
They suck against History of Benalia, the best card in Standard. They suck against Rekindling Phoenix. Heck, they even suck against Conclave Cavalier. They are, in general, bad against green decks - they are dead to Steel-Leaf Champion and anything bigger than that. Killing their turn 1 elves just doesn't seem to do much - you're still going to die to 5/4's or 6/6's or worse. The format is just really unkind to Red. Removal spells, if they are doing damage, need to deal 4 damage minimum, and Exiling is rather important.
The card you're looking for is Lava Coil. Getting 2-for-1'ed isn't very relevant when there's an Explosion for 4-5 waiting in the wings. UR can spew cards and be completely fine. Beacon Bolt, Ral, and countermagic can handle anything larger than four. Once I killed a Ghalta with one Beacon Bolt, straight up - good times.
Benalia hasn't been impactful in any of the ~5 or so matches I've played against the card so far. I've lost way more games to Adanto Vanguard. Anecdotal, sure, but again - UR draws so many cards it doesn't matter. Having a pile of crappy 1-mana removal really buys you time to get the draw engines rolling. The crappy things just feed Chemister's later if they're not preventing your from getting run over, or trade down against larger threats.
Ral also doesn't compare to Teferi, and it's just not his time. Maybe in next Standard Rotation, but I don't know why someone would actively avoid Teferi in Standard right now if they wanted to be a control deck since it's one of the best cards for a control deck, not close.
Ral is fine. Playing additional colors has a hard cost in standard, in terms of both life total and consistency. Teferi probably isn't enough better to be worth a splash by himself. One could draw up a bunch of edge cases where either -3 is better, where either plus 1 is better, and where each ultimate is better. Ral has the better ult, trades extra mana for selection and graveyard + jumpstart synergy, and has the worse defensive ability. Ral also starts one step closer to ultimate. The comparison isn't as straightforward as you suggest.
I see some lists playing Opt - you can't waste card slots on such weak cards like this, and you won't have the mana for this in most games where you are being pressured. You don't have time to durdle in standard - the cards your opponents are playing are way too powerful.
1 mana instant speed cantrips are durdling now? What a world we live in. It's a fine card to test, considering the amount of spells-in-graveyard synergies in UR. I could understand if it doesn't make the cut, but it makes the cut in Modern just fine. Red's slew of one-mana removal makes Opt very much playable.
The most successful control decks I have played have been strict Azorius (a purest form of draw-go with white for board wipes and exile-based removal) which aims to deck the opponent by cycling Devious Cover-Ups over and over again with Mission Briefing, or a light Jeskai deck that is basically Azorius splashing for Beacon Bolt, Lava Coil and Justice Strike with a mixture of Deafening Clarions/Fiery Cannonades in the mainboard and sideboard to reduce the need for cleansing nova. But I don't sacrifice my main white board wipes - they are essentially to winning against a lot of different decks. I do not run Shock or Lightning Strike at all, and the deck is pretty heavy on the blue cards as it's pretty similar to the Azorius deck.
That's an extremely dubious way to try and win the game without a draw engine like Rev. Sounds immensely win-more, and about zero percent to win against Experimental Frenzy Red.
I'm really sad that lots of people wanted counter-burn to work, but Wizards didn't make Izzet into that kind of guild this time around. It just isn't very good. And I think people need to learn that the standards for creatures are so high in Standard that Shock and Lightning Strike are not your default "premium" removal spells anymore. They are just traps now.
Counter-burn isn't a real thing. That's just a word people use to either mischaracterize the flexibility of direct damage spells, or to describe the bad deck they made because they don't understand the concept of tempo or why Delver of Secrets is good.
Competitive Constructed Results:
14-7 (4-3, 5-2x2)
Unfortunately, wasn't taking very good matchup notes since I didn't really expect the deck to be that great. I was wrong.
UR is really good. Stable, mostly-painless mana, and definitely got a lot of the most powerful cards from GRN. Crackling Drake makes this archetype, and I fully expect to see a lot of drakeyboi in Standard. At this point, I don't really feel a third color is necessary - UR can turn the corner and clock the opponent very quickly. Am planning on trying out Jeskai and Grixis as well, but I find it hard to cut cards from this UR list.
Card choices:
Crackling Drake
This card is NUTS. Completely absurd. All UR builds should play 4, anything else is flat-out incorrect.
It does everything. Blocks anything, kills your opponent VERY quickly, AND generates card advantage. It can both trade with and straight up race Carnage Tyrants - no problem. Second set of matches had two opponents with MD Tyrants. Didn't matter, they got clocked by Drakes and died. NICE DINOSAUR. Same scenario for Vine Mare, when you can't just counter it. This card is what makes me think a black splash for sacrifice effects just isn't necessary (nor white for sweepers). Just kill your opponent.
Drakeyboi has stolen many games that felt sub-10% - being 10/4 or 12/4 in the late game is completely normal. My personal drake high score is 17 power.
Couple with basically any burn spell to present a 1-turn clock. Even if they remove it, it still draws a card. Doubly good with removal like Conclave Tribunal - bounce CT with Dream Eater or Blink, ninja block with drakeyboi and draw the thing you topped with Eater.
Four mana is cheap enough to protect, and forces your opponent to leave in bad removal spells, since he's such an incredibly potent threat. And again, you're still ahead if they do kill it. Clean 1 for 0 all day long.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Much better than I expected. He's not quite at Teferi's level, but he's not that far off either. Ral's draw is far superior to Teferi's, even if you do have to play him a bit later to defend him. You can also just jam him in there - he's got a lot of loyalty, and guaranteed to generate significant advantage each turn. The instant/sorcery graveyard synergy is quite strong, and great with jumpstart. Very capable of taking over a game, with a high loyalty and solid answer selection. In the late game, he can nuke basically anything with his -3.
Expansion//Explosion
Excellent card, could very well be on the same power level as Sphinx's Rev. Damage is better than lifegain in a lot of situations (i.e. doming your opponent so drakeyboi can finish the job), and the extra mana pip isn't too hard to overcome. Very happy with two, am considering another for the board to go over the top of midrange decks.
Lava Coil - Love this. Solves a lot of BG problems, and efficient enough to get by vs aggro. Happy with three, could consider two. Four if graveyard shenanigans a'la Findbroker get to tier 1.
Chemister's Insight
This one has been solid. Holding up 4 mana with a Sabotage and this feels amazing. With jumpstart I actually find myself flooding out on these fairly often, though - three is quite possibly the right number. Bridges the midgame gap until you can start Explosion-ing.
Beacon Bolt - I really thought this would be win-more, but it solves a lot of big-creature problems. Scales well across the course of the game. Very happy with one, and jumpstart on this has been quite impactful. A second one in the board would be reasonable.
Niv-Mizzet, Parun
He's OK - six mana sorcery speed is pretty questionable, and card advantage is not something this deck lacks. I like him in the board to force plays in control mirrors, but basically nothing else. Would play Dream Eater #2 or another Ral over him without much hesitation. Casting some jumpstarted Chemister's is also a probably better use of that mana. Doesn't trade with Carnage Tyrant.
Firemind's Research - Looks good on paper, doesn't deliver all that well. Too much overlap with Azcanta, and a really awful draw mid- and late-game. Last copy is on the chopping block.
Blink of an Eye - This one is pretty medium, but is a concession to enchantments. Unhappily running two, and they get boarded out a lot. Will see how it goes. Could consider replacing with another Dream Eater and another early removal spell.
Sinister Sabotage - Very good, much better than Ionize. Easy four-of. Obviously.
Other stuff I tried:
Radical Idea - Horrible. Does nothing. This ain't no Think Twice.
Field of Ruin - More costly than I thought it would be, with so many colored mana symbols in this deck. Cut them for now, unless Azcanta/Blood Fast ends up everywhere.
Other stuff not even remotely worth trying:
Risk Factor - This card is not a consideration for a control archetype, why are people talking about it? Horrible. Play Explosion or Chemister's.
The Eldest Reborn or Plaguecrafter are both possible answers to Vine Mare (or Carnage Tyrants), and play well in Grixis. Keeping the rest of the board clear is pretty achievable, and the so the edict effect can be pretty reliable. Eldest Reborn has some great synergy with Nicol Bolas, as well (and a flavor win!).
Not sure I'm fan of Divest, since that kind of matchup gets topdecky pretty quick after you stabilize the board. You have to draw the Divest pretty early for it to have any impact.
That deck was clearly a combo deck of make infinite mana with Gateway, dome them with an Explosion/Banefire. I don't think that asserts your point at all. It's much closer to the new edition of turbo-fog.
Take your sanctimonious negativity elsewhere.
You seem to hold at least two positions simultaneously:
(Honestly. I think red control cards are the most overrated in all of standard ... They suck against Rekindling Phoenix. Heck, they even suck against Conclave Cavalier. They are, in general, bad against green decks - they are dead to Steel-Leaf Champion and anything bigger than that ... The format is just really unkind to Red. Removal spells, if they are doing damage, need to deal 4 damage minimum, and Exiling is rather important.)
You know, except the ones that aren't bad, and actually do those things /eyeroll
Except it's a 4-of and the wincon of the PTQ deck that you self-righteously used to assert your correctness. Solid.
History is fine. It's a slow 3 mana 4/4 with some upside. It overperforms because of Llanowar elves and the relative strength of GW cards around it. I don't think any specific answer outside of normal sweepers is necessary.
I played about two dozen games with Rosum's Esper Control today. The mana was very medium, and I missed double blue on three or double black on four about 20% of the time. I imagine the fail rate on other three color decks is similar. Mulligan rate was about twice that of UR, usually for color reasons. Still went 8-4 in matches, though, because Teferi is indeed busted.
I don't think you understood what I said. Counterburn is synonymous with "bad tempo deck", since the strategy doesn't ever work.
On the other hand, a thing like Shock is certainly a tempo card - it very often trades up in mana spent, and allows you to spend your mana very efficiently on your opponent's turn. That can be quite valuable in a control archetype, as efficient removal wins a lot of games by taking back the initiative. Reload via whatever mechanism you have, or have a clear board on five for a Teferi/Ral. Pretty hard to do in UW, since removal starts at 2. Two mana removal on the draw is horrible, and those "bad" one mana spells win a ton of games from that position.
This has been the basis of Modern UWR control for many years, for example. This is Standard, so not every removal spell has to be Lightning Bolt quality to be worth playing. UWR in Modern also has the ability to switch its role to the aggressor in bad matchups. UR and Jeskai can do that in Standard (and UR does it better), while Esper or UW have no ability to do so, unless one builds some kind of crazy transformational sideboard.
I own (in paper) probably every control archetype that has existed in the past five or ten years, from Legacy Miracles/Czech Pile to Modern UWR/Miracles/Tron (yes, Tron is a control deck) to Standard UW Rev durdlefiesta. From all of that, I have learned many things, including that role flexibility is hugely valuable (so don't underrate the bad red cards). I'm not saying that the white core is bad (it isn't), it's just not as necessary as you suggest, and has significant holes that need to be filled by other colors anyway.
This is actually the point in time with the smallest card pool available to standard. Threats aren't particularly punishing, compared to other standards - not sure what you really mean, here. Cleansing Nova is very medium - it's a million years too slow alone, except maybe against specifically GW, and I guess you just got a bunch of opponents who failed to play around Settle.
Fiery Cannonade is completely fine against GW tokens. The best part is that they don't have an opportunity to play around it, unlike Settle.
The card you're looking for is Lava Coil. Getting 2-for-1'ed isn't very relevant when there's an Explosion for 4-5 waiting in the wings. UR can spew cards and be completely fine. Beacon Bolt, Ral, and countermagic can handle anything larger than four. Once I killed a Ghalta with one Beacon Bolt, straight up - good times.
Benalia hasn't been impactful in any of the ~5 or so matches I've played against the card so far. I've lost way more games to Adanto Vanguard. Anecdotal, sure, but again - UR draws so many cards it doesn't matter. Having a pile of crappy 1-mana removal really buys you time to get the draw engines rolling. The crappy things just feed Chemister's later if they're not preventing your from getting run over, or trade down against larger threats.
Ral is fine. Playing additional colors has a hard cost in standard, in terms of both life total and consistency. Teferi probably isn't enough better to be worth a splash by himself. One could draw up a bunch of edge cases where either -3 is better, where either plus 1 is better, and where each ultimate is better. Ral has the better ult, trades extra mana for selection and graveyard + jumpstart synergy, and has the worse defensive ability. Ral also starts one step closer to ultimate. The comparison isn't as straightforward as you suggest.
1 mana instant speed cantrips are durdling now? What a world we live in. It's a fine card to test, considering the amount of spells-in-graveyard synergies in UR. I could understand if it doesn't make the cut, but it makes the cut in Modern just fine. Red's slew of one-mana removal makes Opt very much playable.
That's an extremely dubious way to try and win the game without a draw engine like Rev. Sounds immensely win-more, and about zero percent to win against Experimental Frenzy Red.
Counter-burn isn't a real thing. That's just a word people use to either mischaracterize the flexibility of direct damage spells, or to describe the bad deck they made because they don't understand the concept of tempo or why Delver of Secrets is good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMZ4yv91_s
https://www.streamdecker.com/deck/BJpedXJ9Q
Competitive Constructed Results:
14-7 (4-3, 5-2x2)
Unfortunately, wasn't taking very good matchup notes since I didn't really expect the deck to be that great. I was wrong.
Here's my current list:
2 Izzet Guildgate
1 Memorial to Genius
7 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Crackling Drake
1 Dream Eater
2 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Blink of an Eye
4 Chemister's Insight
2 Expansion // Explosion
1 Fiery Cannonade
2 Ionize
3 Lava Coil
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
4 Sinister Sabotage
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Essence Scatter
2 Fiery Cannonade
1 Firemind's Research
3 Negate
1 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
1 Shock
Overall impressions:
UR is really good. Stable, mostly-painless mana, and definitely got a lot of the most powerful cards from GRN. Crackling Drake makes this archetype, and I fully expect to see a lot of drakeyboi in Standard. At this point, I don't really feel a third color is necessary - UR can turn the corner and clock the opponent very quickly. Am planning on trying out Jeskai and Grixis as well, but I find it hard to cut cards from this UR list.
Card choices:
Crackling Drake
This card is NUTS. Completely absurd. All UR builds should play 4, anything else is flat-out incorrect.
It does everything. Blocks anything, kills your opponent VERY quickly, AND generates card advantage. It can both trade with and straight up race Carnage Tyrants - no problem. Second set of matches had two opponents with MD Tyrants. Didn't matter, they got clocked by Drakes and died. NICE DINOSAUR. Same scenario for Vine Mare, when you can't just counter it. This card is what makes me think a black splash for sacrifice effects just isn't necessary (nor white for sweepers). Just kill your opponent.
Drakeyboi has stolen many games that felt sub-10% - being 10/4 or 12/4 in the late game is completely normal. My personal drake high score is 17 power.
Couple with basically any burn spell to present a 1-turn clock. Even if they remove it, it still draws a card. Doubly good with removal like Conclave Tribunal - bounce CT with Dream Eater or Blink, ninja block with drakeyboi and draw the thing you topped with Eater.
Four mana is cheap enough to protect, and forces your opponent to leave in bad removal spells, since he's such an incredibly potent threat. And again, you're still ahead if they do kill it. Clean 1 for 0 all day long.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Much better than I expected. He's not quite at Teferi's level, but he's not that far off either. Ral's draw is far superior to Teferi's, even if you do have to play him a bit later to defend him. You can also just jam him in there - he's got a lot of loyalty, and guaranteed to generate significant advantage each turn. The instant/sorcery graveyard synergy is quite strong, and great with jumpstart. Very capable of taking over a game, with a high loyalty and solid answer selection. In the late game, he can nuke basically anything with his -3.
Expansion//Explosion
Excellent card, could very well be on the same power level as Sphinx's Rev. Damage is better than lifegain in a lot of situations (i.e. doming your opponent so drakeyboi can finish the job), and the extra mana pip isn't too hard to overcome. Very happy with two, am considering another for the board to go over the top of midrange decks.
Lava Coil - Love this. Solves a lot of BG problems, and efficient enough to get by vs aggro. Happy with three, could consider two. Four if graveyard shenanigans a'la Findbroker get to tier 1.
Chemister's Insight
This one has been solid. Holding up 4 mana with a Sabotage and this feels amazing. With jumpstart I actually find myself flooding out on these fairly often, though - three is quite possibly the right number. Bridges the midgame gap until you can start Explosion-ing.
Beacon Bolt - I really thought this would be win-more, but it solves a lot of big-creature problems. Scales well across the course of the game. Very happy with one, and jumpstart on this has been quite impactful. A second one in the board would be reasonable.
Niv-Mizzet, Parun
He's OK - six mana sorcery speed is pretty questionable, and card advantage is not something this deck lacks. I like him in the board to force plays in control mirrors, but basically nothing else. Would play Dream Eater #2 or another Ral over him without much hesitation. Casting some jumpstarted Chemister's is also a probably better use of that mana. Doesn't trade with Carnage Tyrant.
Firemind's Research - Looks good on paper, doesn't deliver all that well. Too much overlap with Azcanta, and a really awful draw mid- and late-game. Last copy is on the chopping block.
Blink of an Eye - This one is pretty medium, but is a concession to enchantments. Unhappily running two, and they get boarded out a lot. Will see how it goes. Could consider replacing with another Dream Eater and another early removal spell.
Sinister Sabotage - Very good, much better than Ionize. Easy four-of. Obviously.
Other stuff I tried:
Radical Idea - Horrible. Does nothing. This ain't no Think Twice.
Field of Ruin - More costly than I thought it would be, with so many colored mana symbols in this deck. Cut them for now, unless Azcanta/Blood Fast ends up everywhere.
Other stuff not even remotely worth trying:
Risk Factor - This card is not a consideration for a control archetype, why are people talking about it? Horrible. Play Explosion or Chemister's.