I was working on the gifts idea for awhile, the black splash can be incredibly light if you run a copy of Radical Idea. Between 4 flooded Strand and 4 field of Ruin you can run a single swamp and a single watery grave and be fine to cast unburial from hand if needed and you can use radical idea to pitch your creature if you draw rites and the creature.
I also liked the black splash to increase Engineered Explosives utility and facilitate flashback on a misers lingering souls.
I think Gifts Ungiven isn't as good now as it was before Terminus showed off its power level and people were playing a mix of Verdict and Wrath of God. But between Snapcaster and Mission Briefing, Gifts Ungiven is basically a 2 card tutor at instant speed for answers (not good at finding threats in UW since snap and brief can't get back walkers). It's under played imo.
I did mess around with a Gifts version with Terminus and Noxious Revival, it was interesting but I didn't get a chance to play with it much. Radical Idea, Noxious Revival, Snapcaster and Mission Briefing turn Gifts into a straight up tutor.
So far I did not consider Radical Idea, that seems to be a nice synergy for decks otherwise lacking discard outlets. I am less worried about the splash than what to cut in the list for e.g. 1 Rites, 1 Iona/Elesh Norn and 3-4 Gifts Ungiven. I don't think we can greatly go down on counters, nor can be skip on spot removal or sweepers, let alone include Lingering Souls (which would make everything a little more midrange-ish I suppose). In past builds I found myself always cutting Revival for looking good on paper but not quite playing out so well, even after a Gifts it always feels bad to only put it on top rather than in your hand, although I will admit this sets up Terminus nicely. Do you happen to have an example list for reference?
I thought about emarkul, but I just don't have any room in the main for the emarkul. I could see a sencario where I cut the worm harvest for 1 Nahiri to go up to 3 and 1 emarkul either promised end or aeons torn.
I think the choice crucially depends on what you want to do. There is no way of casting Big Emmi, whereas Emrakul, the Promised End might be castable with a filled graveyard. The stronger of the two, especially regarding the inclusion of Nahiri, is probably the first one, Annihilator 6 is the key point I think. Do you have an actual list for reference?
Well, Tar Pit gives you another win condition while also not weakening your manabase since it equally produces U/B just like Darkslick Shores. You don't have particularly many 1-drops, so the EtB clause doesn't affect you basically. Even lists with 6-7 T1 discard spells run the Tar Pit, although they should suffer much more from the tempo loss. And even if so, it rarely is your only land in hand, so T1 you should be always able to produce B.
Oh, I did not see your mention of the Madcap/Emperion combo. I am mostly on board with your sideboard plan, though I'm not sure if I would board it in against Spirits so much, since you most likely can't attack through all of their guys and are bound to wait until you find something to deal with them, which gives them a window of just finding path. If RiP is an issue for your build (which I suppose it is due to the lack of G), you could run Disenchant effects (like Wear//Tear as you do) or even Anguished Unmaking if you dare in certain matchups. Not particularly for enchantments, but have you had a look at Bedevil? And yes, if you already run Nahiri, you might as well throw in a single spaghetti monster for good measure, you can always loot it away or discard it to Brutality/Clique, although shuffling your GY doesn't seem to be the nicest strategy.
It seems that the 3/2 split is pretty much consensus, so I'll just try it myself and see whether it improves things. Maybe the third JTMS then takes the slot of the fourth Terminus, with a couple of cantrips and such we should be able to find them. How many 4 mana wraths do you play? I currently opted für a 1-of Verdict, 4 mana still seems a little clunky, especially against hasty threats (and they are pretty bad against Phoenix).
Initially I played a 4C Gifts Rock build in modern, so I was wondering if Gifts Ungiven could bring some extra spice to the list. It essentially is a different deck and probably would require a slight B splash, but Unburial Rites/Iona out of nowhere backed up with Cryptic Commands and counters seems like a pretty neat idea to be honest. Any comments?
I don't see why you couldn't replace a Darkslick Shores with a Creeping Tar Pit to be honest, doesn't change your fixing at all and one usually can afford 2 EtB-tapped lands. I might indeed try Clique in the mainboard some time soon, possibly even Silumgar in certain matchups (possibly a nice option in games 2 and 3 against UWx and Tron, although RiP is an issue). It is true that Gifts loses a lot of its versatility when graveyard hate is present, however most of the time my plan was to fight right through it with Maelstrom Pulse, Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay (you see why I like the inclusion of G) and early discard. A nice anecdote right here, recently I got hit by an Unmoored Ego turn 3 on the draw taking all 4 Gifts from the deck, a game which I nevertheless won simply due to outgrinding through topdecks, where the manlands (and Raven's Crime) turned out to be key. So in the end we do not depend on Gifts as heavily as one might be inclined to think.
Another idea: Since you are in R already, have you tried (or thought about) Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion? You do not seem to have an artifact package in your 75 (due to the lack of Loam/Ruins) and this particular tech 'just' takes 5 slots in the sideboard while kind of changing the angle of attack while profiting from the lack of hard removal postboard. I'm just making up stuff right now, but it might be worth testing.
I am glad you had a look. You are mostly right, the meta consists of quite a chunk of G Tron, Valakut and a few control variants (mostly UWx, but also UBx) against which Crucible is the all-star. One thing Mouth of Ronom also does is deal with manlands, which is one of the reasons if not the reason to play 4-5 LD lands, so this slot doesn't miss out on this aspect. Additionally, against aggressive strategies (of which there are some in every meta I guess) it gives some extra outs.
Regarding Entreat this is also my take, stealing some games with a set up Entreat at the end of the opponent's turn, but it's a fringe application which is why I have gone down to a single one. The number of PWs is atm. tailored such that I can assemble the list from my binder, basically. I was thinking of going up to 2 Teferis which would make a 2/2 split. How crucial is the 3rd Jace in your opinion?
I can see the upside of JVP, but what about opposing removal? One of the strengths I have greatly appreciated was blanking the removal of the opposing deck (which is why I recently cut BoP entirely, since the new Arclight decks often play Gut Shot which feels awful). Could you also comment on Dragonlord Silumgar, I for myself had to look this card up? I guess it acts as an additional Gifts/Rites target, I fear that it often eats removal which neglects its effect entirely. What have been your experiences so far and against which decks?
Regarding the 4th colour, in my experience no splash is 'for free', and even more so in an 4C deck. I would suggest that you try at least 2 manlands in your list, they work great in grindy matchups and are often hard to deal with threats. I guess your plan against manlands is Push/Path? More traditional Gifts builds mostly dedicated two land slots to utility lands (such as Academy Ruins or Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter), you could go with 1 with only 23 lands if you feel like it. Also, no basic Mountain?
It is mostly pretty standard I guess, although Entreat has somewhat fallen out of favour and I tried a Mouth of Ronom in the main for additional removal and eventual recursion with Crucible (which I wouldn't want to miss out on currently). I am still not quite settled whether Condemn or Oust is the way to go, although it is annoying that Oust is a sorcery and the threat is rapidly coming back. As far as the sideboard is concerned, the only fixed slots are the RiPs, the Purge and the Reinforcements I guess, otherwise I'm not particularly sold on any of these. Suggestions?
Now that's a spicy list for sure, however, let me make some remarks: First and foremost 23 lands sounds like 1 or 2 too little, depending on the exact version. Usually, 4 lands is the minimum for this deck, so you consistently want to hit your land drops for the first 4 turns, which is not an easy task without cantrips. Another thing I have enjoyed playing was manlands (2 seems like the sweet spot), specifically Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tar Pit, alternatively Shambling Vent if you are bound to a budget, although the Tar Pit is rather cheap at the moment. Then, what about utility lands such as Field of Ruin/Ghost Quarter? I can't comment on specific choices, but do you really want 4 JVPs in your deck? The same comes to mind for the Clique. Have you considered Terminate, Dreadbore or even Bedevil for dealing with planeswalkers? This (thoroughly needed) role is normally covered by Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy ad Maelstrom Pulse in the green sector of the deck. You could e.g. replace a Brutality with one of these or even cut a Path for good measure.
Regarding the recent list here: I'd strongly recommend more discard, this is the best thing you can proactively do in the first few turns against virtually any opponent. If the matchup happens to be midrange, then board out some and go for the even grindier plan with LtLH and your value dorks. And I'm not sold on Unmoored Ego to be honest, I haven't seen it doing much at all. You might want to go up to 3-4 Surgicals, which together with Extirpate and Snapcaster Mage considerably diversify your options.
Recently had some time for testing and slightly refining the list, although my experience is mostly constrained to games against either control or midrange. Lately I tested against a deck that essentially was Jeff Hooglands Sultai Control list, let alone a few slots that were changed depending on things going on locally at an FNM level. All in all I was quite satisfied, I had a winning record in both pre- and post board games (turns out Unmoored Ego isn't quite as good against Gifts as one might think). The only thing that I found really annoying was the Birds of Paradise. The rate at which one can cast T2 LotV is much lower than I expected (even after crunching the numbers it still feels like its happening too rarely), hence I decided to cut the Birds and increase the threat density (which almost was an issue if not Lingering Souls tokens going all the way in the end, since Elesh/Iona + the manlands and Loam were exiled due to a timely Nihil Spellbomb). I replaced the Birds with Raven's Crime, the all-star in grindy matchups, the 25th land (the 3rd Marsh Flats, in fact) and a single Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet which has won a game on all of its own. Kalitas is pretty neat in this kind of deck, we are pretty heavy on removal, so if the sticks for a couple of turns, the advantage gets close to insurmountable, putting aside the lifegain all together. The list looks like this:
Ensnaring Bridge is essentially there to test it, the intention is obvious I guess and is suppose to hold back aggressive strategies, whereas it has also helped allocating some time against Celestial Colonnades and alikes. Additionally, it can be searched for in a Gifts pile if urgently needed, although that might be a corner case. The only thing I'm uncertain about is the sideboard. I have pretty much liked Crucible against UWx decks, especially in conjunction with Raven's Crime if Loam doesn't happen to be present. Hitting land drops indefinitely feels pretty strong after all, making the deck inevitable against multiple Field of Ruin and Ghost Quarter effects. Torpor Orb is nice against Humans, especially on the play, LtLH is recursion for matchups such as Jund/Junk, where the '-2' grants some value with Snapcaster or Kalitas. Tron is of course a nightmare with this build. The rest is pretty much standard, however comments and discussions are of course welcome.
I haven't had time to playtest in ages (that is, months in fact), so I can't provide any data either.
Might be a good call right after release. Surgicals, however, seem to spike a little bit at the moment, possibly a good call to let everything calm down a bit. Temporarily, you could play Extirpate instead of the single Snapcaster, which lets you still perform the Gifts pile you suggested above.
The numbers did not change so much, at some point he now even requires a land less to 'consistently cast' your spells. In the case of my list, the bottleneck mostly is the 1BB cost of LotV and to some extent the 2UU of JtMS, but he does not need to come down as early as possible, the primary 4-drop is of course Gifts, so that's mostly fine I guess.
It is true that non-Snapcaster lists usually run the permanent versions of GY hate, however, have you considered a 1-of Snapcaster? It is neither a bad topdeck nor bad when included in a Gifts pile for additional value, it could for example replace the Noxious Revival in your current build. Another option I have sometimes run is Wheel of Sun and Moon, which would be a natural fit due to your tendency towards W. Of course, it does not remove anything that is already in the GY and somewhat competes in the 2-drop slot in your list, but I nevertheless wanted to mention it. Speaking of toying around a little, I came up with a more streamlined list which is essentially UBwg and has a Delve sub-theme. Possibly cutting G and adding more counters (e.g. Negate, Mana Leak, eventually Logic Knot) is a valid option, but I need to do some fine-tuning still.
I just finish FNM 2-2
Beat a different player/version of R/G Ponza again. and 1 arclight deck. Lost to 1 Esper control and 1 arclight deck.
I've actually moved Elspeth to the SB during the week. Most of modern has gotten extremely linear and fast so 6 mana is a bit much and the 3 soldiers don't always stablize you. Big Lili has been pretty good, it making a token and milling 2 is fine but its in there as a backup way to reanimate creatures. I am a bit biased as during the game I won against Esper control she milled Iona with an unburail already in grave.
The wrong half of the deck problem, and bad ramp top decks kind of go hand in hand. I have tried to mitigate that with ways to discard to value or get pseudo redraws through brutality and champion but variance is still a thing It does feel bad to draw ramp you don't need but to me drawing a chump blocker is better than drawing discard when your both in a topdeck war. Carytid is good at blocking what would otherwise be free damage for the opponent and steve can at least deck thin in the late game to mitigate your odds of drawing a land.
Well, you did considerably better at your FNM than I did at my last attempt with Bant Knightfall Gifts, it was a carnage. Yes, the linearity has become an issue for me, too, I feel that especially Tron is a matchup to pass on and possibly not even worth dedicating too much slots to, since games 2 and 3 don't seem to be worth the effort if we still only make it to a 40/60 against them. Elspeth to the side seems a good idea overall. I might try big Lili at some point, but at 5 mana I could imagine more powerful effects. Occasionally winning games sounds of course fine, the question is what the overall ratio is and how much more consistent the reanimation plan gets with her, precisely on that I'm not quite sure.
I thought so, yes. This a commitment one has to make with running 6 ramp cards, I found for myself that 3 is the right number to go in the above build, not terribly altering the topdeck ratio and being able to swing for 2 with Elesh or chump some opposing fliers (looking at Spirits, which isn't great to play against either). Sure a blocker is (often) more valuable than discard when topdecking, it is however nice to draw a discard spell to keep in hand until some bigger spell comes around you need to protect. Might as well be a thing of personal taste in the end, but in this regard I think being proactive is the better way currently, especially since removal is often more expensive than just B. In the end, your matchup against Burn might be better though due to Caryatids.
Champion has performed so well that I've gone up to 2 copies, though I don't think it warrants more. Eternalizing and drawing four is back breaking against decks when you have stabilized. Or in the Case of an elesh norn drawing 6 is basically game ( which I did tonight against the arclight deck) It allows you to keep hands that are mostly ok but could be better. In some ways/ boardstates its better than brutality and works amazing with sun titan, filtering your hand and preparing for the next attack trigger.
KoR actually got dropped tonight after FNM as I managed to trade for 2 copies of Autumn between rounds. KoR came in as a way to go lower on the curve and apply pressure, so decks like ponza, control,and tron. Autumn is able to fill that role and be more versatile. KoR in my build is no where near as versatile as I have way fewer utility lands. With Autumn in the SB I'm debating dropping the 2 Finks from the SB for more answers, like nihil spellbomb,and maybe a geist of st traft as autumn has the 4 life that finks would bring and that with the 3 copies of Brutality means I have a good amount of life gain for it.
You don't actually wait the whole turn for Noxious with a gift pile, you pay 2 life and make whatever you want your next draw. But with this build I'm starting to question it's slot. I may change it up in the future.
That sounds like a test-worthy subject tbh., but to be fair, with an Elesh out you do not need to worry too much, the draw 6 just seals the deal that was almost done anyway. I also agree on KoA replacing KotR, the versatility is key in this deck and you might even be able to cast it through a Blood Moon with the amount of dorks you run (how was your experience with Moon so far? Steve seems to help a little). Regarding your GY hate slots I'm not sold on that, Crypt and Spell Bomb are too narrow I think, Dredge can rather easily recover from a single blow like this and you need to hold up mana permanently. Have you considered Surgical Extraction?
I might post a newly built, more streamlined version of my previous build that durdles a little less (although that's of course what we all like to some extent). The focus is more towards midrange with Tasigurs and Anglers as early beaters that help stabilise and apply pressure. I put out the ramp, the EE/Loam Engine and instead added a bunch of cantrips in Thought Scour. I need to get it onto here, then I'll link it.
My deck is aiming for late game, where top decking disruption is a dead draw 95%+ of the time. I rely on spot removal as my disruption which is rarely a dead draw. The brutality are there for their flexibility and discarding for value not for hand disruption as their main reason.
That is something I would associate to a meta call, spot removal is pretty bad against quite a few decks, UW Control and to some extent Burn or swarm strategies such as BW Tokens, while disrupting their hand preemptively is sometimes the way to go there. As often said, 4C Gifts is highly customisable to your local meta, so let's go with that.
The ramp on t2 is key to the my builds success, the games where I was able to ramp t2 I felt way more competitive. As I want to jump the curve from on T3 with 4 mana spells (wrath/ gifts) With many decks being so aggressive ramp that can block is important. The caryatids are helpful with mana denial and blocking any attacker with p2 or less and preventing edicts of Iona in LOTV decks.
Sure ramp on T2 is great, but the ramp cards are pretty bad topdecks to be fair (and since you mentioned this issue in your previous post), and you play quite a bunch of them. Sure Steve can chump, but this does not save the day in the end, in the best case (and only there) you buy yourself another turn. Noxious Revival is also a pretty bad topdeck as you need to wait an entire turn to use the card you wished for, plus you're down one card overall. I played quite some time with a 1-of Noxious Revival together with an Eternal Witness to guarantee a Gifts pile but it rarely was used and it even more rarely was useful. Secondly, do you sometimes get 'the wrong half of your deck'-draws? This occasionally happens when playing some air in the deck, I recall that issue from decks like Ponza with a bunch of ramp, although admittedly this is another category all by itself.
Regarding the rest I still have some comments, how did you find the performance of Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Liliana, Death's Majesty? They seem high-costed to be honest, does the ramp amount to making the jump from the crucial 4 lands to 6? Concerning the sideboard, against what matchups do you side Knight of the Reliquary and how did you find it so far?
I have been following this thread for about a year, whereas 4C Gifts Rock was picked up by me in early 2015 and occasionally played since then. Let me first comment on the above decklist, there are a few things that immediately come to mind:
You run only 6 fetchlands in a 4-colour deck, which is an extremely low amount (the 6 dorks already considered). The snow-covered lands could easily be additional fetchlands in the main colours, i.e. something like Verdant Catacombs or Windswept Heath I suppose, depending on what you have available at the moment.
The dorks seem to be a little too prevalent in this list. I can see that you include the basics because of Steve and make then snow-covered due to Gifts. Have you had any trouble hitting your mana requirements? Sure you can get basics with Steve, but I always found it quite challenging to meet the mana costs when trying to play around non-basic hate, it definitely slows you down quite a smidge.
I see that your build is more heavily leaning on W than other versions of this deck, however I always felt that Liliana of the Veil was an integral part of the strategy, providing disruption, self-discard and edict effects all at once while occasionally winning the game with her ultimate against slower, more control-ish decks. Have you considered running (at least) 2 exemplars?
Furthermore, I find your lack of discard a little disturbing, you only have 3 Duress effects in Brutality and no T1 hand disruption. How has this been working for you? I felt that I was always pretty heavily reliant on some sort of early interaction, be it discard, removal or possibly both.
Lastly, Sun Titan feels a little outdated, although the synergies are of course nice. In addition to that, I am not a big fan of Noxious Revival as it is inherent card disadvantage and happens to be a horrible topdeck, besides the ones you already have. These were my 2 cents so far.
Regarding my own list, I added some additional spice (or jank, however you would like to call it) which I will outline below.
Things that might seem unusual are the following: Ensnaring Bridge as an additional artifact in the package together with Loam is in a sense a concession to Hollow One and alikes, as the relatively high power of those threats activates bridge more easily in recent times. Besides that, it tends to help against manlands of opposing control decks when drawn naturally. I moved Raven's Crime to the sideboard and added the 4th copy of LotV since I wanted to retain the amount of discard for my creatures while I felt that a naturally drawn Raven's Crime in the absence of Loam wasn't overwhelmingly good. Contrary to that, Loam is an integral piece of the list together in the denial plan with Tectonic Edge and the various packages including Engineered Explosives or the bridge. I have chosen Tec Edge over Field of Ruin since I run only 4 basic lands, which at some point gives the opponent an upside as soon as we ourselves can't find any more lands of it. Similar reasoning applies to Ghost Quarter, which does not allow us to keep our opponent from hitting 1UUU for Cryptics.
I decided to go with BoP for the T1 dork and possibly T2 LotV, which often is a great play and even if they eat a Lightning Bolt or a Fatal Push, it is tempo-neutral. Needless to say, in a 4C list with heavy colour requirements, the fixing is also a nontrivial thing to consider (aside from fringe cases such as EE on 5, which has happened though). The 1-of JtMS is nice to have against some opponents and mostly drawn naturally, although I have included him in Gifts piles already in order to get given the other options for sure. When both PWs hit the board, things become quite awesome as one would expect, bouncing a creature with Jace and letting it discard afterwards is an incredibly powerful play (and pretty fun, too!).
Lastly, the 3/1 split between Decay/Trophy is due to the drawback of an early-turn Trophy compared to a Decay, where the latter does the job most of the time. Also, Decay kills Death's Shadow through eventual Stubborn Denials, which is an additional upside. Also, this lets us Gift for very universal removal spells and Snapcaster Mage, having an out against most of the stuff that's happening in Modern right now. These were my additional 2 cents, I might at some point also share my take on 4C Azcanta Gifts, which is a little more U-centered and controlling without as many attrition as the Rock-style variant.
So far I did not consider Radical Idea, that seems to be a nice synergy for decks otherwise lacking discard outlets. I am less worried about the splash than what to cut in the list for e.g. 1 Rites, 1 Iona/Elesh Norn and 3-4 Gifts Ungiven. I don't think we can greatly go down on counters, nor can be skip on spot removal or sweepers, let alone include Lingering Souls (which would make everything a little more midrange-ish I suppose). In past builds I found myself always cutting Revival for looking good on paper but not quite playing out so well, even after a Gifts it always feels bad to only put it on top rather than in your hand, although I will admit this sets up Terminus nicely. Do you happen to have an example list for reference?
I think the choice crucially depends on what you want to do. There is no way of casting Big Emmi, whereas Emrakul, the Promised End might be castable with a filled graveyard. The stronger of the two, especially regarding the inclusion of Nahiri, is probably the first one, Annihilator 6 is the key point I think. Do you have an actual list for reference?
Oh, I did not see your mention of the Madcap/Emperion combo. I am mostly on board with your sideboard plan, though I'm not sure if I would board it in against Spirits so much, since you most likely can't attack through all of their guys and are bound to wait until you find something to deal with them, which gives them a window of just finding path. If RiP is an issue for your build (which I suppose it is due to the lack of G), you could run Disenchant effects (like Wear//Tear as you do) or even Anguished Unmaking if you dare in certain matchups. Not particularly for enchantments, but have you had a look at Bedevil? And yes, if you already run Nahiri, you might as well throw in a single spaghetti monster for good measure, you can always loot it away or discard it to Brutality/Clique, although shuffling your GY doesn't seem to be the nicest strategy.
Initially I played a 4C Gifts Rock build in modern, so I was wondering if Gifts Ungiven could bring some extra spice to the list. It essentially is a different deck and probably would require a slight B splash, but Unburial Rites/Iona out of nowhere backed up with Cryptic Commands and counters seems like a pretty neat idea to be honest. Any comments?
Another idea: Since you are in R already, have you tried (or thought about) Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion? You do not seem to have an artifact package in your 75 (due to the lack of Loam/Ruins) and this particular tech 'just' takes 5 slots in the sideboard while kind of changing the angle of attack while profiting from the lack of hard removal postboard. I'm just making up stuff right now, but it might be worth testing.
Regarding Entreat this is also my take, stealing some games with a set up Entreat at the end of the opponent's turn, but it's a fringe application which is why I have gone down to a single one. The number of PWs is atm. tailored such that I can assemble the list from my binder, basically. I was thinking of going up to 2 Teferis which would make a 2/2 split. How crucial is the 3rd Jace in your opinion?
Regarding the 4th colour, in my experience no splash is 'for free', and even more so in an 4C deck. I would suggest that you try at least 2 manlands in your list, they work great in grindy matchups and are often hard to deal with threats. I guess your plan against manlands is Push/Path? More traditional Gifts builds mostly dedicated two land slots to utility lands (such as Academy Ruins or Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter), you could go with 1 with only 23 lands if you feel like it. Also, no basic Mountain?
2 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantment
1 Detention Sphere
1 Search for Azcanta
Land
5 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mouth of Ronom
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
3 Field of Ruin
Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
Instant
4 Opt
2 Spell Snare
2 Logic Knot
3 Cryptic Command
2 Negate
4 Path to Exile
1 Mana Leak
1 Mission Briefing
1 Serum Visions
1 Oust
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
Planeswalker
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
3 Spell Queller
2 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
2 Negate
1 Celestial Purge
2 Dispel
2 Timely Reinforcements
It is mostly pretty standard I guess, although Entreat has somewhat fallen out of favour and I tried a Mouth of Ronom in the main for additional removal and eventual recursion with Crucible (which I wouldn't want to miss out on currently). I am still not quite settled whether Condemn or Oust is the way to go, although it is annoying that Oust is a sorcery and the threat is rapidly coming back. As far as the sideboard is concerned, the only fixed slots are the RiPs, the Purge and the Reinforcements I guess, otherwise I'm not particularly sold on any of these. Suggestions?
Now that's a spicy list for sure, however, let me make some remarks: First and foremost 23 lands sounds like 1 or 2 too little, depending on the exact version. Usually, 4 lands is the minimum for this deck, so you consistently want to hit your land drops for the first 4 turns, which is not an easy task without cantrips. Another thing I have enjoyed playing was manlands (2 seems like the sweet spot), specifically Celestial Colonnade and Creeping Tar Pit, alternatively Shambling Vent if you are bound to a budget, although the Tar Pit is rather cheap at the moment. Then, what about utility lands such as Field of Ruin/Ghost Quarter? I can't comment on specific choices, but do you really want 4 JVPs in your deck? The same comes to mind for the Clique. Have you considered Terminate, Dreadbore or even Bedevil for dealing with planeswalkers? This (thoroughly needed) role is normally covered by Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy ad Maelstrom Pulse in the green sector of the deck. You could e.g. replace a Brutality with one of these or even cut a Path for good measure.
Recently had some time for testing and slightly refining the list, although my experience is mostly constrained to games against either control or midrange. Lately I tested against a deck that essentially was Jeff Hooglands Sultai Control list, let alone a few slots that were changed depending on things going on locally at an FNM level. All in all I was quite satisfied, I had a winning record in both pre- and post board games (turns out Unmoored Ego isn't quite as good against Gifts as one might think). The only thing that I found really annoying was the Birds of Paradise. The rate at which one can cast T2 LotV is much lower than I expected (even after crunching the numbers it still feels like its happening too rarely), hence I decided to cut the Birds and increase the threat density (which almost was an issue if not Lingering Souls tokens going all the way in the end, since Elesh/Iona + the manlands and Loam were exiled due to a timely Nihil Spellbomb). I replaced the Birds with Raven's Crime, the all-star in grindy matchups, the 25th land (the 3rd Marsh Flats, in fact) and a single Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet which has won a game on all of its own. Kalitas is pretty neat in this kind of deck, we are pretty heavy on removal, so if the sticks for a couple of turns, the advantage gets close to insurmountable, putting aside the lifegain all together. The list looks like this:
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Land
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation
1 Raven's Crime
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spellskite
1 Extirpate
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Ensnaring Bridge is essentially there to test it, the intention is obvious I guess and is suppose to hold back aggressive strategies, whereas it has also helped allocating some time against Celestial Colonnades and alikes. Additionally, it can be searched for in a Gifts pile if urgently needed, although that might be a corner case. The only thing I'm uncertain about is the sideboard. I have pretty much liked Crucible against UWx decks, especially in conjunction with Raven's Crime if Loam doesn't happen to be present. Hitting land drops indefinitely feels pretty strong after all, making the deck inevitable against multiple Field of Ruin and Ghost Quarter effects. Torpor Orb is nice against Humans, especially on the play, LtLH is recursion for matchups such as Jund/Junk, where the '-2' grants some value with Snapcaster or Kalitas. Tron is of course a nightmare with this build. The rest is pretty much standard, however comments and discussions are of course welcome.
Might be a good call right after release. Surgicals, however, seem to spike a little bit at the moment, possibly a good call to let everything calm down a bit. Temporarily, you could play Extirpate instead of the single Snapcaster, which lets you still perform the Gifts pile you suggested above.
It is true that non-Snapcaster lists usually run the permanent versions of GY hate, however, have you considered a 1-of Snapcaster? It is neither a bad topdeck nor bad when included in a Gifts pile for additional value, it could for example replace the Noxious Revival in your current build. Another option I have sometimes run is Wheel of Sun and Moon, which would be a natural fit due to your tendency towards W. Of course, it does not remove anything that is already in the GY and somewhat competes in the 2-drop slot in your list, but I nevertheless wanted to mention it. Speaking of toying around a little, I came up with a more streamlined list which is essentially UBwg and has a Delve sub-theme. Possibly cutting G and adding more counters (e.g. Negate, Mana Leak, eventually Logic Knot) is a valid option, but I need to do some fine-tuning still.
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Land
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Field of Ruin
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
4 Thought Scour
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
Sorcery
2 Duress
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Damping Sphere
1 Celestial Purge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
1 Supreme Verdict
As always, feel free to comment.
Well, you did considerably better at your FNM than I did at my last attempt with Bant Knightfall Gifts, it was a carnage. Yes, the linearity has become an issue for me, too, I feel that especially Tron is a matchup to pass on and possibly not even worth dedicating too much slots to, since games 2 and 3 don't seem to be worth the effort if we still only make it to a 40/60 against them. Elspeth to the side seems a good idea overall. I might try big Lili at some point, but at 5 mana I could imagine more powerful effects. Occasionally winning games sounds of course fine, the question is what the overall ratio is and how much more consistent the reanimation plan gets with her, precisely on that I'm not quite sure.
I thought so, yes. This a commitment one has to make with running 6 ramp cards, I found for myself that 3 is the right number to go in the above build, not terribly altering the topdeck ratio and being able to swing for 2 with Elesh or chump some opposing fliers (looking at Spirits, which isn't great to play against either). Sure a blocker is (often) more valuable than discard when topdecking, it is however nice to draw a discard spell to keep in hand until some bigger spell comes around you need to protect. Might as well be a thing of personal taste in the end, but in this regard I think being proactive is the better way currently, especially since removal is often more expensive than just B. In the end, your matchup against Burn might be better though due to Caryatids.
That sounds like a test-worthy subject tbh., but to be fair, with an Elesh out you do not need to worry too much, the draw 6 just seals the deal that was almost done anyway. I also agree on KoA replacing KotR, the versatility is key in this deck and you might even be able to cast it through a Blood Moon with the amount of dorks you run (how was your experience with Moon so far? Steve seems to help a little). Regarding your GY hate slots I'm not sold on that, Crypt and Spell Bomb are too narrow I think, Dredge can rather easily recover from a single blow like this and you need to hold up mana permanently. Have you considered Surgical Extraction?
Regarding the mana base, there is an updated article from Frank Karsten in which he updates and refines some of his assumptions, leading to slightly different numbers. Just follow the link for the updated version: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells-a-guilds-of-ravnica-update/. However, 13 sources for G sound a little sketchy concerning that you require GG in your list for Witness, although it is a 1-of of course.
I might post a newly built, more streamlined version of my previous build that durdles a little less (although that's of course what we all like to some extent). The focus is more towards midrange with Tasigurs and Anglers as early beaters that help stabilise and apply pressure. I put out the ramp, the EE/Loam Engine and instead added a bunch of cantrips in Thought Scour. I need to get it onto here, then I'll link it.
That is something I would associate to a meta call, spot removal is pretty bad against quite a few decks, UW Control and to some extent Burn or swarm strategies such as BW Tokens, while disrupting their hand preemptively is sometimes the way to go there. As often said, 4C Gifts is highly customisable to your local meta, so let's go with that.
Sure ramp on T2 is great, but the ramp cards are pretty bad topdecks to be fair (and since you mentioned this issue in your previous post), and you play quite a bunch of them. Sure Steve can chump, but this does not save the day in the end, in the best case (and only there) you buy yourself another turn. Noxious Revival is also a pretty bad topdeck as you need to wait an entire turn to use the card you wished for, plus you're down one card overall. I played quite some time with a 1-of Noxious Revival together with an Eternal Witness to guarantee a Gifts pile but it rarely was used and it even more rarely was useful. Secondly, do you sometimes get 'the wrong half of your deck'-draws? This occasionally happens when playing some air in the deck, I recall that issue from decks like Ponza with a bunch of ramp, although admittedly this is another category all by itself.
Regarding the rest I still have some comments, how did you find the performance of Elspeth, Sun's Champion and Liliana, Death's Majesty? They seem high-costed to be honest, does the ramp amount to making the jump from the crucial 4 lands to 6? Concerning the sideboard, against what matchups do you side Knight of the Reliquary and how did you find it so far?
Regarding my own list, I added some additional spice (or jank, however you would like to call it) which I will outline below.
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tectonic Edge
Creature
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Instant
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Unburial Rites
2 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spellskite
1 Extirpate
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Raven's Crime
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Things that might seem unusual are the following: Ensnaring Bridge as an additional artifact in the package together with Loam is in a sense a concession to Hollow One and alikes, as the relatively high power of those threats activates bridge more easily in recent times. Besides that, it tends to help against manlands of opposing control decks when drawn naturally. I moved Raven's Crime to the sideboard and added the 4th copy of LotV since I wanted to retain the amount of discard for my creatures while I felt that a naturally drawn Raven's Crime in the absence of Loam wasn't overwhelmingly good. Contrary to that, Loam is an integral piece of the list together in the denial plan with Tectonic Edge and the various packages including Engineered Explosives or the bridge. I have chosen Tec Edge over Field of Ruin since I run only 4 basic lands, which at some point gives the opponent an upside as soon as we ourselves can't find any more lands of it. Similar reasoning applies to Ghost Quarter, which does not allow us to keep our opponent from hitting 1UUU for Cryptics.
I decided to go with BoP for the T1 dork and possibly T2 LotV, which often is a great play and even if they eat a Lightning Bolt or a Fatal Push, it is tempo-neutral. Needless to say, in a 4C list with heavy colour requirements, the fixing is also a nontrivial thing to consider (aside from fringe cases such as EE on 5, which has happened though). The 1-of JtMS is nice to have against some opponents and mostly drawn naturally, although I have included him in Gifts piles already in order to get given the other options for sure. When both PWs hit the board, things become quite awesome as one would expect, bouncing a creature with Jace and letting it discard afterwards is an incredibly powerful play (and pretty fun, too!).
Lastly, the 3/1 split between Decay/Trophy is due to the drawback of an early-turn Trophy compared to a Decay, where the latter does the job most of the time. Also, Decay kills Death's Shadow through eventual Stubborn Denials, which is an additional upside. Also, this lets us Gift for very universal removal spells and Snapcaster Mage, having an out against most of the stuff that's happening in Modern right now. These were my additional 2 cents, I might at some point also share my take on 4C Azcanta Gifts, which is a little more U-centered and controlling without as many attrition as the Rock-style variant.
Cheers!