Once these abilities do not prevent damage (in fact they cause state-based actions to be ignored), the creatures can get -1/-1 counters and simply be put into the graveyard because of zero toughness (that is diferent from dying/being destroyed).
It is not destruction but it is still dying. To die means to be put into the graveyard from the battlefield, for any reason. Destruction is not the only thing that causes death.
Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification
So, Looks like I was almost 100% right about the doubt. Thanks for the help!
You have it mostly right.
Kytheon will indeed die, as indestructible doesn't prevent a creature from gaining -1/-1 counters, or from state-based actions putting it into the graveyard for having zero or less toughness.
The thing you have slightly wrong is that all state-based actions are checked together. So the game will see Kytheon with zero toughness at the same time it checks to see what creatures (such as your Glistener Elf) have lethal damage marked on them. All this happens before the active player gets priority.
Huuuum... I didn’t know that the state based actions would check together at the same time. Kytheon is dead even before the active player receives priority... that’s great news that Gideon would never see the sun.
Oh, man, it looks like infect really screws up indestructible and regenerate. Once these abilities do not prevent damage (in fact they cause state-based actions to be ignored), the creatures can get -1/-1 counters and simply be put into the graveyard because of zero toughness (that is diferent from dying/being destroyed).
Hi, my friends. This time I faced a peculiar situation... and need some help to solve.
My opponent attacked with Kytheon, Hero of Akros and 2 others creatures. I blocked Kytheon with Glistener Elf. My opponent pays 2W for the activated ability of Kytheon, that gains indestructible until end of turn. The question is... Kytheon dies because of the -1/-1 counter before it transforms into Gideon? To transform into Gideon, Kytheon must be on the battlefield when the "end of combat" comes... but in my opinion it won't be.
This is how I see the solution for this: (1) the combat damage is assigned, (2) All assigned damage is dealt, so Glistener Elf deals damage to Kytheon and this one gains a -1/-1 counter, (3) Kytheon isn't destroyed because of the indestructible ability, ignoring the state-based action that checks for the letal damage (704.5g). After this, active player (my opponent) gets priority (before the "end of combat" step)... at this moment, because creature's toughness is checked as a state-based action (704.5f) as soon as any player gets priority (704.3), the game checks for Kytheon's toughness [that now is 0 (zero) because of the -1/-1 counter (2/1 & -1/-1 = 1/0)] it got when received infection damage on the previous step] and it is put into the graveyard. Only after all this, it's time for the "at end of combat" effects trigger.
So, once Kytheon, Hero of Akros is put into graveyard before the end of combat step, it's triggered ability never triggered... and it didn't transform into Gideon, Battle-Forged. In this specific case, if I'm right, the activated ability of Kytheon, that grants it indestructible, isn't enough to avoid "death"; not because of the lethal damage, but because of the -1/-1 counter placed on it and its zero toughness checked as a state-based action before the end of combat.
So, my friends, am I wrong or am I right?
Thanks a lot for your help. I'd appreciate if you could insert the rules you quote from the Comprehensive Rules.
So If a 1/1 creature receives +x/+x it isn’t 1/1 anymore? If yes, the condition forPendelhaven second ability won’t really check.
I thought that only the power/toughness writen on the card would matter for this kind of thing. Some cards say “that creature becomes a X/X” and some just add +X+X... and I thought that just in the first case the creature would lose it’s original power/toughness written on the card.
Do you think the same is valid for the other activated ability of Pendelhaven? I mean... tap the one on the battlefield for +1/+2, play the second, put the first in the graveyard, and tap the new one for more +1/+2 till the end of this turn... so my creature would gain +2/+4 in total in this case till the end of turn?
Pendelhaven is a legendary land... so I can have just one on my field because of the “legend rule”.
Ok. Let’s say I have one Pendelhaven (#1)on the field and another one (#2) in my hand.
In this situation, once started my main phase, is it possible to tap the one on the field to add {G} to the mana pool, then play another Pendelhaven (that will obligate me to put the #1 in the graveyard) and tap it to add one more {G} to the pool?
My idea is to tap one, generate {G}, play the new one, put the first away, and use the second Pendel to add one more {G} and cast a spel with CMC 2.
No. Any damage you redirect goes to the one target you chose.
The 'two different recipients' ruling refers to two cards of yours which could receive damage from one same source.
You mean 2 for the creature or 2 for the player chosen, right? So it can’t be 1 for a player and 1 for a creature, correct?
It means that if the source you chose would deal 1 damage each to two permanents you control (or to you and a permanent you control), you have to have that source deal exactly 2 damage instead to the target (or as much as possible), but you choose which among you and/or permanents you control (as the case may be) to "redirect" that damage from. Take the following scenario:
Pestilence is on the battlefield and you control three creatures: Creature A, Creature B, and Creature C.
You cast Harm's Way targeting your opponent.
All players pass, then Harm's Way resolves. You choose Pestilence as the source for Harm's Way.
Pestilence's second ability is activated.
All players pass, then the Pestilence ability resolves. Pestilence would deal 1 damage to "each creature and each player". However, exactly 2 damage (or as much as possible) from Pestilence that would be dealt to you and/or the creatures you control is dealt to your opponent, but you choose how that damage is "redirected" this way (C.R. 616.1). For example, you can choose, among other possibilities, that—
– 1 damage that Pestilence would each deal to you and to Creature A,
– 1 damage that Pestilence would each deal to Creatures A and B, or
– 1 damage that Pestilence would each deal to you and to Creature C,
is dealt instead to your opponent. However, you can't choose, for example, that all the damage Pestilence would deal to Creatures A, B, and C is dealt to your opponent instead.
Thanks a lot. Now I understand. 1 source of damage (that would be dealt to one or more targets... me or my creatures) and only 1 target to redirect that damage to.
The card is less flexible than I thought. It's real advantage is that I can choose to "protect" more than 1 creature from the damage if this damage is from the same source.
No. Any damage you redirect goes to the one target you chose.
The 'two different recipients' ruling refers to two cards of yours which could receive damage from one same source.
You mean 2 for the creature or 2 for the player chosen, right? So it can’t be 1 for a player and 1 for a creature, correct?
No. Harm's Way has only one target, that you choose when you cast it. The 2 damage is dealt to that one target. You can't choose two creatures to target.
In the rulings page on Gatherer for Harm's Way it’s said that “You choose which 2 damage is redirected. If you like, you can choose to redirect 1 damage that would be dealt by the chosen source to each of two different recipients.”
I may be wrong but after some thinking, “Two different recipients” seems clear to me now... it means two different targets, two different recipients. So, as I read this text I can only think that (I) I have to choose only one source of damage (II) but I can split the 2 damage (so it’s 1 and 1) between each of two different targets: a) 2 different creatures; b) 2 different players (or a planeswalker); and c) 1 creature and 1 player.
I attack with my creature 2/2. The opponent blocks with his 2/2 and has two more creatures (that are 1/1 each).
Ok... is it possible for me to cast [c]Harm's Way[c] (to prevent the combat damage caused by the blocking creature) and split these 2 damage between 2 differents targets?
In the example... is it possible to prevent the 2 combat damage and redirect 1 damage to one 1/1 and 1 damage to the other 1/1? So, in case the answer is “yes”, the 3 creatures of my opponent would die: the 2/2 because of the combat damage and the two different 1/1 because of the 1 damage each one received.
I think the answer is in the card rulings on Gatherer, but once English isn’t my first language and the translator didn’t help at all, I decided to ask.
Recently I bought a deck starter. The manual says that if I do not have at least 2 land cards in my starting hand I should shuffle the hand and draw 7 (seven) cards again. This seemed really strange to me. Is this a rule or a suggestion for the beginners?
Once I stopped playing some years ago (and the manual says it) I thought that maybe this is some new rule... because, as I remember, the only way to shuffle my hand and draw cards was if I take a mulligan.
I read the comprehensive rules about starting hang but it says nothing about this "rule"... so I just want to confirm that there is no new rule that says that I can shuffle my hand and draw 7 (seven) cards again if I don't have at least 2 lands.
Thanks a lot and sorry if this is a dumb question.
I was playing with my kithkin deck when faced this specific situation:
Kinsbaile Borderguard enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for "each other kithkin you control". Militia's Pride it's a tribal enchantment that specifically says its type is "kithkin". I know that Militia's Pride count as a kithkin card when it's in my hand or as a kithkin spell when casted... but, when in play, does it count as a "other kithkin you control"? Does the text "for each other kithkin you control" displayed in Kinsbaile Borderguard means that it gets +1/+1 only for the kithkin creatures I control?
If Militia's Pride, once it's a tribal enchantment, count as a kithkin I control, it counts to add +1/+1 counter on Kinsbaile Borderguard. If not, It isn't important for this matter. That's my doubt.
Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification
So, Looks like I was almost 100% right about the doubt. Thanks for the help!
Huuuum... I didn’t know that the state based actions would check together at the same time. Kytheon is dead even before the active player receives priority... that’s great news that Gideon would never see the sun.
Oh, man, it looks like infect really screws up indestructible and regenerate. Once these abilities do not prevent damage (in fact they cause state-based actions to be ignored), the creatures can get -1/-1 counters and simply be put into the graveyard because of zero toughness (that is diferent from dying/being destroyed).
My opponent attacked with Kytheon, Hero of Akros and 2 others creatures. I blocked Kytheon with Glistener Elf. My opponent pays 2W for the activated ability of Kytheon, that gains indestructible until end of turn. The question is... Kytheon dies because of the -1/-1 counter before it transforms into Gideon? To transform into Gideon, Kytheon must be on the battlefield when the "end of combat" comes... but in my opinion it won't be.
This is how I see the solution for this: (1) the combat damage is assigned, (2) All assigned damage is dealt, so Glistener Elf deals damage to Kytheon and this one gains a -1/-1 counter, (3) Kytheon isn't destroyed because of the indestructible ability, ignoring the state-based action that checks for the letal damage (704.5g). After this, active player (my opponent) gets priority (before the "end of combat" step)... at this moment, because creature's toughness is checked as a state-based action (704.5f) as soon as any player gets priority (704.3), the game checks for Kytheon's toughness [that now is 0 (zero) because of the -1/-1 counter (2/1 & -1/-1 = 1/0)] it got when received infection damage on the previous step] and it is put into the graveyard. Only after all this, it's time for the "at end of combat" effects trigger.
So, once Kytheon, Hero of Akros is put into graveyard before the end of combat step, it's triggered ability never triggered... and it didn't transform into Gideon, Battle-Forged. In this specific case, if I'm right, the activated ability of Kytheon, that grants it indestructible, isn't enough to avoid "death"; not because of the lethal damage, but because of the -1/-1 counter placed on it and its zero toughness checked as a state-based action before the end of combat.
So, my friends, am I wrong or am I right?
Thanks a lot for your help. I'd appreciate if you could insert the rules you quote from the Comprehensive Rules.
I thought that only the power/toughness writen on the card would matter for this kind of thing. Some cards say “that creature becomes a X/X” and some just add +X+X... and I thought that just in the first case the creature would lose it’s original power/toughness written on the card.
Pendelhaven is a legendary land... so I can have just one on my field because of the “legend rule”.
Ok. Let’s say I have one Pendelhaven (#1)on the field and another one (#2) in my hand.
In this situation, once started my main phase, is it possible to tap the one on the field to add {G} to the mana pool, then play another Pendelhaven (that will obligate me to put the #1 in the graveyard) and tap it to add one more {G} to the pool?
My idea is to tap one, generate {G}, play the new one, put the first away, and use the second Pendel to add one more {G} and cast a spel with CMC 2.
Thanks in advance for the patience!
Thanks a lot. Now I understand. 1 source of damage (that would be dealt to one or more targets... me or my creatures) and only 1 target to redirect that damage to.
The card is less flexible than I thought. It's real advantage is that I can choose to "protect" more than 1 creature from the damage if this damage is from the same source.
Thanks, my friends. It really helped a lot!
You mean 2 for the creature or 2 for the player chosen, right? So it can’t be 1 for a player and 1 for a creature, correct?
But once you guys know much more about the game... I “surrender” hahaha
In the rulings page on Gatherer for Harm's Way it’s said that “You choose which 2 damage is redirected. If you like, you can choose to redirect 1 damage that would be dealt by the chosen source to each of two different recipients.”
I may be wrong but after some thinking, “Two different recipients” seems clear to me now... it means two different targets, two different recipients. So, as I read this text I can only think that (I) I have to choose only one source of damage (II) but I can split the 2 damage (so it’s 1 and 1) between each of two different targets: a) 2 different creatures; b) 2 different players (or a planeswalker); and c) 1 creature and 1 player.
I attack with my creature 2/2. The opponent blocks with his 2/2 and has two more creatures (that are 1/1 each).
Ok... is it possible for me to cast [c]Harm's Way[c] (to prevent the combat damage caused by the blocking creature) and split these 2 damage between 2 differents targets?
In the example... is it possible to prevent the 2 combat damage and redirect 1 damage to one 1/1 and 1 damage to the other 1/1? So, in case the answer is “yes”, the 3 creatures of my opponent would die: the 2/2 because of the combat damage and the two different 1/1 because of the 1 damage each one received.
I think the answer is in the card rulings on Gatherer, but once English isn’t my first language and the translator didn’t help at all, I decided to ask.
Thanks a lot for you patience and help!
Recently I bought a deck starter. The manual says that if I do not have at least 2 land cards in my starting hand I should shuffle the hand and draw 7 (seven) cards again. This seemed really strange to me. Is this a rule or a suggestion for the beginners?
Once I stopped playing some years ago (and the manual says it) I thought that maybe this is some new rule... because, as I remember, the only way to shuffle my hand and draw cards was if I take a mulligan.
I read the comprehensive rules about starting hang but it says nothing about this "rule"... so I just want to confirm that there is no new rule that says that I can shuffle my hand and draw 7 (seven) cards again if I don't have at least 2 lands.
Thanks a lot and sorry if this is a dumb question.
Thanks a lot for the fast answer!
I was playing with my kithkin deck when faced this specific situation:
Kinsbaile Borderguard enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for "each other kithkin you control". Militia's Pride it's a tribal enchantment that specifically says its type is "kithkin". I know that Militia's Pride count as a kithkin card when it's in my hand or as a kithkin spell when casted... but, when in play, does it count as a "other kithkin you control"? Does the text "for each other kithkin you control" displayed in Kinsbaile Borderguard means that it gets +1/+1 only for the kithkin creatures I control?
If Militia's Pride, once it's a tribal enchantment, count as a kithkin I control, it counts to add +1/+1 counter on Kinsbaile Borderguard. If not, It isn't important for this matter. That's my doubt.
Thanks in advance for your help!