So, now that we have about a fifth of the whole spoiler, I have this weird feeling that they have specifically avoided creating cards targeted to tier 1 decks. I'm not talking about game breaking cards, but cards that are objectively clear addictions for tier 1 decks; not sideboard card nor cards that I could add if I'm willing to find a slot, but something that I almost have to add.
What are your thoughts?
P.S. They make 4/5 new commander decks each year... is there a real need for new commanders in MODERN horizons? (of course, a good commander mythic is better than a wasted mythic and it's reasonable to not have 15 new powerful mythic just for modern, but...)
So, I have a mono-white humans deck from when it was in standard back during Scars of Mirrodin/Innistrad block. I'm looking to keep it mono-white, mostly due to budget concerns; is there a huge drop off in power because of that, or is it possible to stay mostly competitive without splashing for other colors/coco?
Obviously there is a major drop off in power playing a mono white version, mostly because of a slower clock and less versability, but it's a good budget option.
I'm having a really hard time against MONO G TRON, during my testing, both with 5C and HOT BANT.
I know we are supposed to "race" them, first of all, but... :
- what cards do you usually cut against them and why?
- what cards do you board in?
- what is your approach to the game?
Personally I'm not a big fan of Venser, Shaper Savant and the second copy of Tajic, Legion's Blade. Also I don't like the Tireless Tracker in the SB. I think she has not enough impact the turn she enters the battlefield and even 20 lands aren't enough to generate value. But that just my two cents.
The manabase looks good and provides 15 white mana sources - should be enough to play your white SB cards.
What I really like is the come back of Mayor of Avabruck. I tried him myself and and he provides a faster clock. Not sure if it's right to replace Kitesail Freebooter with him but I really liked him in the maindeck.
For the fact she's a lord. Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is a sideboard card to me, taking Gaddock Teeg's spot or working in addition to him. Tajic's abilities are super narrow, really only being effective against red decks, and his final ability can't be activated. Thalia is still also always a good choice, but she doesn't close out games, nor does she apply any pressure the turn she's dropped.
Judith is more like Kessig Malcontents more than anything, except with a bit more versatility. I'll take a weakness to Anger and Terminus if it means I can buff all of my creatures and deal a few more points of damage with a deck that wants to win as consistently fast as possible.
Oh well, after last FNM I can only agree with you.
I gave a try to Thalia, Heretic Cathar and she promptly did nothing.
I lost 1-2 with 2 grixis shadows, won 2-0 with a mono red Arclight Phoenix and lost 0-2 with a mono G tron (I kept an horrible hand in game 2 with 5 lands, Gaddock and Aether Vial hoping to draw something decent with the 2 Horizon Canopy) and I feel Judith, the Scourge Diva could give me a great help.
I will give her a try for sure.
Next FNM I will try the Mayor of Avabruck option.
I think for sure this takes over the 3-drop flex spot. Militia Bugler is too slow for many matchups. This card is a great closer
She's good for sure and she's a bit faster than Militia Bugler, but why choose her over cards such as Tajic, Legion's Edge, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade or Thalia, Heretic Cathar?
Her +1/+0 effect is nice and it may be possible we will be able to deal 3/4 damage with her second ability, but I don't think she's a worthy addition to the main 60.
The main reason to go "hot bant" is the sideboard options so I doubt playing all 8 gold lands make sense. Addition I would probably not look to be running vial and coco in the same deck since there are way too many whiffs.
I understand your point of view, but If you cut all the Unclaimed Territory (or even only 2 of them) and also you don't play Aether Vial (I know it's a different deck, but bant spirits runs both Vial and CoCo with excellent results) you will really struggle trying to play Mantis Rider.
With all of the 8 gold lands you may have some little trouble to play CoCo or Rest in Peace and Stony Silence (the only two worthy addiction to the sideboard).
Instead of having a hard time playing Mantis Rider or non-creature spells (CoCO, RIP and Stony Silence) you should try playing Benalish Marshal and go full bant mode with also Horizon Canopy.
Something like this:
- 4x Champion of the Parish
- 4x Thalia's Liuetenant
- 4x Noble Hierarch
- 4x Reflector Mage
- 4x Meddling Mage
- 3x Mayor of Avabruck
- 3x Benalish Marshal
- 4x Phantasmal Image
- 2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
- 4x Collected Company
- 3x Aether Vial (I would never cut them)
- 2x Path to Exile
- 1x Plains
- 1x Island
- 1x Forest
- 1x Temple Garden
- 1x Hallowed Fountain
- 1x Breeding Pool
- 3x Flooded Strand
- 3x Windswept Heath
- 4x Horizon Canopy
- 2x (only?) Cavern of Souls
- 1x Seachrome Coast
- 1x Razorverge Thicket
Anyone got a list for the bant or "hot bant" versions of this deck? I'd love to sleeve up a copy to try it out but I can't find a list. Specifically on the changes to the mana base as subbing out Kitesail for Mayor seems like the only main board change.
Hi!
If you only plan to change Kitesail Freebooter with Mayor of Avabruck there is no need to change the five color mana base.
If you're looking to build a CoCo version, with also (maybe) Path to Exile and be able to play cards such as Rest in Peace and Stony Silence in your sideboard I would try something like this for the mana base:
- 1x Plains
- 1x Island
- 1x Forest
- 1x Temple Garden
- 1x Hallowed Fountain
- 1x Breeding Pool (or a second copy of one of the above shocklands if the deck is heavy on white)
- 3x Flooded Strand
- 3x Windswept Heath
- 4x Cavern of Souls
- 4x Unlclaimed Territory
You really want to be able to play Mantis Rider as soon as you can and even 4x Caverns and 4x Territory may not be enough sometimes.
You won't have Horizon Canopy! and I think that is a big loss as it is (at least for me) the loss of the Freebooter.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben will be less useful because she will slow down your Collected Company and Path to Exiles.
As for the decklist I would try something like this:
- 4x Champion of the Parish
- 4x Thalia's Lieutenant
- 4x Noble Hierarch
- 4x Mantis Rider
- 4x Reflector Mage
- 4x Meddling Mage
- 3x Mayor of Avabruck
- 4x Phantasmal Image
- 4x Collected Company
- 3x Aether Vial
- 2x Path to Exile
Hi!
I personally play a full playset of Meddling Mage (if you know your opponent's deck is always useful and it's even more good played after a Kitesail Freebooter) in my main deck and only 2x of Milita Bugler (it's indeed a good card, but I often find myself boarding it out and uw/jeskai is not popular as it used to be) and zero Hostage Taker (I'm not a fan of this card).
My sideboard is:
- 2x Auriok Champion (good vs burn, dredge, hollow one, death's shadow, jund and any other red heavy deck)
- 2x Gaddock Teeg (for tron and uw/jeskai)
- 2x Knight of Autumn (it's much more versatile than it already seems)
- 2x Grafidgger's Cage (it's easy to play and you really want some form of graveyard hate)
- 2x Damping Sphere (again, it's easy to play. It can handle not only tron but also storm, other combo decks and it's able to slow down phoenix decks which tend to play multiple spells per turn)
- 2x Izzet Staticaster (although it is no longer common to face another human deck or "normal" affinity, infect and tokens deck. It's not useful against spirits and phoenix decks)
- 1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation (it may not be able to save our creatures from an Anger of the Gods, but i prefer it to Tajic, Legion's Edge)
- 1x Sin Collector (for uw/jeskai, but I'm thinking to test Plague Crafter)
- 1x Dismember (I prefer it to Hostage Taker for its instant speed and because is "easier" to cast)
Regarding spirits and phoenix match:
- Spirits: you may want to cut Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (although it can slow down their Path to Exile and Collected Company), but I suggest to keep Kitesail Freebooter in, at least because it has flying. Dismember (or Hostage Taker if you prefer it) and a full playset of Reflector Mage are crucial. I also often find myself copying one of their creatures with Phantasmal Image, if I don't have a Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant of Reflector Mage to copy. Eventually we want to be faster than them.
- Phoenix: it depends on which variant they play. If they also play Thing in the Ice and Crackling Drake, Reflector Mage is crucial. Grafdigger's Cage and Damping Sphere are both good options as Kambal, Consul of Allocation and Sin Collector. I find that phoenix decks are not very solid and there are some key cards (Manamorphose and Faithless Looting ie) that can be named with meddling mage to hurt them. Again, we want to be faster than them.
What are your thoughts?
P.S. They make 4/5 new commander decks each year... is there a real need for new commanders in MODERN horizons? (of course, a good commander mythic is better than a wasted mythic and it's reasonable to not have 15 new powerful mythic just for modern, but...)
Others card you should consider are:
- Gather the Townsfolk
- Hanweir Militia Captain
- Kytheon, Hero of Akros
- Frontline Medic
- Declaration in Stone (side option)
Obviously there is a major drop off in power playing a mono white version, mostly because of a slower clock and less versability, but it's a good budget option.
I'm having a really hard time against MONO G TRON, during my testing, both with 5C and HOT BANT.
I know we are supposed to "race" them, first of all, but... :
- what cards do you usually cut against them and why?
- what cards do you board in?
- what is your approach to the game?
My current HOT BANT list is:
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
2x Militia Bugler
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Meddling Mage
4x Reflector Mage
4x Mantis Rider
Lands:
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Breeding Pool
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Hallowed Fountain
4x Flooded Strand
2x Unclaimed Territory
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Horizon Canopy
2x Auriok Champion
3x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
2x Path to Exile
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Knight of Autumn
2x Damping Sphere
- Is it worth to keep Mayor of Avabruck post-game 1?
- Do you keep Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or do you feel she loses use post-game 1? What about Meddling Mage and Reflector Mage?
- How do you value Stony Silence in this matchup? Is it better an artifact spot removal like Knight of Autumn? Or both together?
- Is Path to Exile too much in addition to Reflector Mage trying to deal with their creatures?
- Is Damping Sphere really that good as it seems, beside being useful against other decks (titan, storm, ... )?
Now I understand a little more the pair of Venser, Shaper Savant in Jim and David list, but I still not quite like the card (that damn 4 mana cost!).
Thank you all for the help
I've been testing this deck all day long and... :
- I was not a fan of Venser, Shaper Savant too and, while I have to admit he can be useful, I'm still not a fan. He is not strong as Spell Queller and 4 mana felt too much most of the times.
- I like him as a character, but I'm not a fan of mainboard Tajic, Legion's Edge now. I understand Dylan using it expecting a Arclight Phoenix heavy tournament, but Tajic is a sideboard option at most.
- Tireless Tracker is garbage. I would play a hot bant version only for sideboard options and cutting Rest in Peace for Tracker is utterly nonsense.
- I would run 2x of Damping Sphere in the sideboard because Gaddock Teeg and Stony Silence (to stop Oblivion Stone, Expedition Map, Chromatic Sphere and Chromatic Star???) are really not enough against tron.
- I would cut the third copy of Auriok Champion and Stony Silence and 2x of Tireless Tracker to run 2x of Rest in Peace and Damping Sphere.
- I would also cut Tajic, Legion's Edge for a third copy of Mayor of Avabruck and a fourth Phantasmal Image and I would use Militia Bugler rather than Venser, Shaper Savant.
Oh well, after last FNM I can only agree with you.
I gave a try to Thalia, Heretic Cathar and she promptly did nothing.
I lost 1-2 with 2 grixis shadows, won 2-0 with a mono red Arclight Phoenix and lost 0-2 with a mono G tron (I kept an horrible hand in game 2 with 5 lands, Gaddock and Aether Vial hoping to draw something decent with the 2 Horizon Canopy) and I feel Judith, the Scourge Diva could give me a great help.
I will give her a try for sure.
Next FNM I will try the Mayor of Avabruck option.
Good luck and let us know how your testing turns out.
She's good for sure and she's a bit faster than Militia Bugler, but why choose her over cards such as Tajic, Legion's Edge, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade or Thalia, Heretic Cathar?
Her +1/+0 effect is nice and it may be possible we will be able to deal 3/4 damage with her second ability, but I don't think she's a worthy addition to the main 60.
I understand your point of view, but If you cut all the Unclaimed Territory (or even only 2 of them) and also you don't play Aether Vial (I know it's a different deck, but bant spirits runs both Vial and CoCo with excellent results) you will really struggle trying to play Mantis Rider.
With all of the 8 gold lands you may have some little trouble to play CoCo or Rest in Peace and Stony Silence (the only two worthy addiction to the sideboard).
Instead of having a hard time playing Mantis Rider or non-creature spells (CoCO, RIP and Stony Silence) you should try playing Benalish Marshal and go full bant mode with also Horizon Canopy.
Something like this:
- 4x Champion of the Parish
- 4x Thalia's Liuetenant
- 4x Noble Hierarch
- 4x Reflector Mage
- 4x Meddling Mage
- 3x Mayor of Avabruck
- 3x Benalish Marshal
- 4x Phantasmal Image
- 2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
- 4x Collected Company
- 3x Aether Vial (I would never cut them)
- 2x Path to Exile
- 1x Plains
- 1x Island
- 1x Forest
- 1x Temple Garden
- 1x Hallowed Fountain
- 1x Breeding Pool
- 3x Flooded Strand
- 3x Windswept Heath
- 4x Horizon Canopy
- 2x (only?) Cavern of Souls
- 1x Seachrome Coast
- 1x Razorverge Thicket
Hi!
If you only plan to change Kitesail Freebooter with Mayor of Avabruck there is no need to change the five color mana base.
If you're looking to build a CoCo version, with also (maybe) Path to Exile and be able to play cards such as Rest in Peace and Stony Silence in your sideboard I would try something like this for the mana base:
- 1x Plains
- 1x Island
- 1x Forest
- 1x Temple Garden
- 1x Hallowed Fountain
- 1x Breeding Pool (or a second copy of one of the above shocklands if the deck is heavy on white)
- 3x Flooded Strand
- 3x Windswept Heath
- 4x Cavern of Souls
- 4x Unlclaimed Territory
You really want to be able to play Mantis Rider as soon as you can and even 4x Caverns and 4x Territory may not be enough sometimes.
You won't have Horizon Canopy! and I think that is a big loss as it is (at least for me) the loss of the Freebooter.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben will be less useful because she will slow down your Collected Company and Path to Exiles.
As for the decklist I would try something like this:
- 4x Champion of the Parish
- 4x Thalia's Lieutenant
- 4x Noble Hierarch
- 4x Mantis Rider
- 4x Reflector Mage
- 4x Meddling Mage
- 3x Mayor of Avabruck
- 4x Phantasmal Image
- 4x Collected Company
- 3x Aether Vial
- 2x Path to Exile
Hi!
I personally play a full playset of Meddling Mage (if you know your opponent's deck is always useful and it's even more good played after a Kitesail Freebooter) in my main deck and only 2x of Milita Bugler (it's indeed a good card, but I often find myself boarding it out and uw/jeskai is not popular as it used to be) and zero Hostage Taker (I'm not a fan of this card).
My sideboard is:
- 2x Auriok Champion (good vs burn, dredge, hollow one, death's shadow, jund and any other red heavy deck)
- 2x Gaddock Teeg (for tron and uw/jeskai)
- 2x Knight of Autumn (it's much more versatile than it already seems)
- 2x Grafidgger's Cage (it's easy to play and you really want some form of graveyard hate)
- 2x Damping Sphere (again, it's easy to play. It can handle not only tron but also storm, other combo decks and it's able to slow down phoenix decks which tend to play multiple spells per turn)
- 2x Izzet Staticaster (although it is no longer common to face another human deck or "normal" affinity, infect and tokens deck. It's not useful against spirits and phoenix decks)
- 1x Kambal, Consul of Allocation (it may not be able to save our creatures from an Anger of the Gods, but i prefer it to Tajic, Legion's Edge)
- 1x Sin Collector (for uw/jeskai, but I'm thinking to test Plague Crafter)
- 1x Dismember (I prefer it to Hostage Taker for its instant speed and because is "easier" to cast)
Regarding spirits and phoenix match:
- Spirits: you may want to cut Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (although it can slow down their Path to Exile and Collected Company), but I suggest to keep Kitesail Freebooter in, at least because it has flying. Dismember (or Hostage Taker if you prefer it) and a full playset of Reflector Mage are crucial. I also often find myself copying one of their creatures with Phantasmal Image, if I don't have a Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant of Reflector Mage to copy. Eventually we want to be faster than them.
- Phoenix: it depends on which variant they play. If they also play Thing in the Ice and Crackling Drake, Reflector Mage is crucial. Grafdigger's Cage and Damping Sphere are both good options as Kambal, Consul of Allocation and Sin Collector. I find that phoenix decks are not very solid and there are some key cards (Manamorphose and Faithless Looting ie) that can be named with meddling mage to hurt them. Again, we want to be faster than them.
I hope I was helpful.