Serra is a 4 drop so it would be T4 (or even T3 because of Noble) anthem, then the next turn worship.
The best card we could get is probably Sulfuric Vortex but doubtful that they would print it. Fireblast, and Price are super strong too but, Sulfuric Vortex answers almost all the problem cards we deal with (Leyline and life gain).
Sorry yes you're right. I did mean turn 5 ultimate in my post and not anthem. I'm imagining a deck running both Serra and worship and then hiding behind indestructible creatures and fogs. Wincon is your opponent flipping the table.
Sulfuric vortex would be spicy to get. I'm excited to see what's coming.
I cannot express in words how much I hate the concept of emblems because they cannot be interacted with in any way at all. That kind of stuff just shouldn't exist.
I agree with you 100%. There still hasn't been a rule or card that allows any kind of interactions with emblems. I have a hunch that even if they made a card to interact with emblems it probably will be too narrow to be played anyways.
I think Serra is super strong though because she anthems then she ults the next turn. Bump in the Night got a raise in importance just from her being announced. Wanderer already kind of makes that deck somewhat annoying to play against. I could also see them switch a couple of cards to add Judges Familiar to the deck to help support her.
Turn 5 anthem is tough. Let's hope we get toys that equally scare people. I'm really hoping we get Price of Progress
What do you guys think will happen to modern Burn if this new mulligan rule will be accepted? People can mulligan to leyline with almost 98% change to have it in opener.
Maybe go naya again with more creatures?
For Mythic Championship II in London, we're going to be trying out a new mulligan rule that we have been playtesting internally for some time. We believe the new rule smooths out opening hand decisions even more, though it certainly has some implications for formats like Modern.
The rule we'll be testing in London is as such: When you mulligan for the Nth time, you draw seven cards, then put N cards on the bottom of your library in any order.
So, for example, let's say you're taking your second mulligan of a game, what we often call a mulligan to five. You would draw seven cards, select two, and place those two on the bottom of your library in any order. Then you would decide whether to keep or mulligan again.
Burn, being low-variance, is definitely among the decks that benefit least from this proposed rule. However, Burn still has plenty of creatures and access to enchantment hate if necessary. I think graveyard-based decks are much more likely to get hated out by Leylines than Burn.
I think there's two sides to this coin. First is positive in that our decks are really redundant and streamlined. A pseudo scry 7 and taking our choice of n-x spells for our game plan is pretty rewarding for us. In this sense, it allows us to cherry pick our tempo.
The flip side is it does the same for all other decks and absolutely puts us behind the eight ball with chalice and leylines. Unless these cards pop up in multiple main decks then we should be ok. Red already had the best answers for artifact hate.
Degenerate combos will move us to black to thought seize and inquisition of kozilek to rip hands apart. More leylines enchantments push us to splash more green and white. The point being, I think burn has lots of flexibility and our side boards will adjust accordingly if this new rule sticks. By no means am I saying it's easy though.
I agree this is definitely a two edged sword for a lot of decks, graveyard strategies included.
So I've been struggling lately with which version of Burn to run - Rakdos or Boros. Each is good and bad in their own way and top 8's seem to be divided almost 50/50. I made a short list for myself regarding the pros for each version. Please add to or remove and debate my thoughts. I'm curious if we can collectively start adding to it so we have a really good understanding of what each list provides us.
Rakdos
Pro
Lower CMC – faster
Access to hand disruption (Thoughtseize) for problematic combo decks ex) Ad Nauseum
Versatile Sideboard in Rakdos Charm
Rain of Gore is permanent anti lifegain TerminateDreadbore hits Planewalkers
Turn 0 graveyard hate leyline of the void (I concede Boros could also run this but not cast it later)
Boros
Pro
Boros Charm deals 4 damage and saves creaturespermanents
Lightning Helix life gain
Path to Exile is 1 mana exile (faster than Terminate)
More resilient to Chalice 1
More resilient options for the mirror (Helix is instant and targets creatures compared to Sovereign's Bite, Can run Kor Firewalker)
If you can't decide, there's always Mardu!
Lol maybe. Truth is I just don't know. That's why I'm throwing the topic out there
So I've been struggling lately with which version of Burn to run - Rakdos or Boros. Each is good and bad in their own way and top 8's seem to be divided almost 50/50. I made a short list for myself regarding the pros for each version. Please add to or remove and debate my thoughts. I'm curious if we can collectively start adding to it so we have a really good understanding of what each list provides us.
Rakdos
Pro
Lower CMC – faster
Access to hand disruption (Thoughtseize) for problematic combo decks ex) Ad Nauseum
Versatile Sideboard in Rakdos Charm
Rain of Gore is permanent anti lifegain
Terminate hits Planewalkers
Turn 0 graveyard hate leyline of the void (I concede Boros could also run this but not cast it later)
Boros
Pro
Boros Charm deals 4 damage and saves creatures
Lightning Helix life gain
Path to Exile is 1 mana exile (faster than Terminate)
More resilient to Chalice 1
More resilient options for the mirror (Helix is instant and targets creatures compared to Sovereign's Bite, Can run Kor Firewalker)
I would agree Cindervines isn't what we want right now. If KCI was still around, then I'd probably give a different answer. I think Cindervines is too slow for affinity who's already dumped their entire hand by turn 3. I'd rather instant speed removal for their artifacts for 2cmc and not having to hold up mana starting turn 3. Our other matches where Cindervines is good - Lantern, UW Control, Storm are matches where we are already favoured. I feel like it's a win more card right now. For other matches where it could be helpful (Phoenix, Hollow One style looting decks), I think they're faster and ramp big faster than the card would likely help us. I think in those matches, we're chump blocking or using spot removal instead of pinging for 1 damage. At least that's what my gut says. That being said, I have purchased my playset for the next time infinite mana loop combos become popular.
So any mono red lists out there? I'm interested to see if anyone is revisiting thunderous wrath or thinking about it now in a mono red or possibly rakdos list. We have enough bolts that I could see running magma jet with t. wrath.
I think we're so close to mono red that I can taste it. That being said, I don't think Thunderous Wrath is the droid we're looking for. It's an amazing top deck but, it's dead in our opening hand and on the first draw because we need a land in play. On average our games go 4 to 5 rounds? I think it's more likely the card is in our hand or first draw then the last 3-4 draws making it unplayable. Enabling with magma jet could work but it's a 2cmc 2 damage card and also likely not where we want to be if it does not trigger the miracle.
Hey everyone. I've been jamming a few testing sessions with my playgroup and running against the gauntlet. Sadly I didn't think to track data so this is all memory and feeling but... I tried running 4 x Skewer the Critics and removed the same number of Lightning Helix from my main. Only 4 x Boros Charm was my white splash. I always triggered Skewer spectacle (usually through creature damage, eidolon, rift bolt, and lavamancer) and generally found the results to be more explosive in finishing the game more consistently on turn 4 compared to running Helix. I still ran 3 x Skullcrack in the main and found this very useful when testing game 1 vs Tron, Rock, Abzan, Griselbrand/Through the Breach (I realize this isn't big in the meta but mentioning nonetheless), and the Burn mirror. The only match I found I really missed Helix was vs Infect - not for life gain but for not having hoops to trigger spectacle when I needed to target a creature now. Obviously your meta will dictate which cards could/should be removed in place of skewer and my comments could always come back to bite me in future games where I want Helix, but I can honestly say I didn't mind dropping the card.
Elcon - I also wanted to give props for the math/draw post a couple pages back. That was really insightful to read so thanks very much for that.
I used to play 4 Shard Volley with 19 lands for over a year and never once had an issue with it. I still play with 19 lands but have since removed Shard Volley from the deck. If you choose to run i, just remember, it's your finisher and should be the last spell you sequence. Otherwise you risk running short on mana for the next round if the spell is countered.
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
Light Up the Stage allows you to cast the cards until the end of your NEXT turn, so there's that.
That's a fantastic point that I totally overlooked SnowCrow. I'd like to change my opinion and say yes, it's definitely worth considering and testing LUtS (although I still don't like Faithless Looting in Burn - I'd rather just draw the needed spell). Reading below and looking at CatParty's comments about the deck thinning, I can certainly get behind that. So the ultimate question becomes, how many do we want to run? If we run 8 spectacle cards (4 Skewer, 4 Stage), what are the chances of top decking this and requiring 3 CMC?
I used to play 4 Shard Volley with 19 lands for over a year and never once had an issue with it. I still play with 19 lands but have since removed Shard Volley from the deck. If you choose to run i, just remember, it's your finisher and should be the last spell you sequence. Otherwise you risk running short on mana for the next round if the spell is countered.
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
Hey folks. I'm curious where our decisions rested with cinder vines vs destructive revelry? Forgetting the argument for a sec about should we splash green, let's assume we do. You know... For science
DRev is faster, instant speed, costs less. More applicable to fast matchups.
Cinder Vines is good vs KCI, and longer matches - crazily enough mini eidolon 5-8 vs UW control.
I think DRev is still the better call but let's debate
I want to focus on Collision // Colossus and your general comment on pump spells for a sec. Pump spell are not burn spell and have unfortunately no place in burn unless some burn effect is attached to it (See Atarka's command). We need way more creature than 12/14 creatures for a pump spell to be even decent, let alone in burn. The potential +4 damage on a creature swing is unfortunately offset by it's dependence on the presence of said creature which makes the card worhtless by itself, unlike AC that can still do 3 damage on its own with the potential for more. And there's also removal to account for.
We could get the creature count up, but then we become more akin to a zoo deck, and it's not really the place to talk about this. (don't think zoo want that either, which would mean an even bigger no in burn.) Pump spell has always been more of a thing for infect. The explosive potential is there, but removal is a little too prevalent, and we just don't run enough creature to make pump spells worthwhile in burn.
EDIT: Oh, and while we're at it, if you run white mana, you run Boros Charm. No questions.
I can agree with all points you're making. I should point out that I do not see pump spells as an optimal build for us. I'm begrudgingly accepting of the fact that we are no longer the fast deck on the block and more often than not lately are playing a control game and waiting for our moment to squeak in that last bit of damage. The suggestion was most certainly a grasp for that speedy explosiveness but you're right, with so much removal and so little creatures in our deck, it's dangerous.
This is awesome discussion everyone. After some soul searching, I agree with Elconquistator that we need a version of flame rift to make mono red viable.
That 2cmc 4 damage is important. Petition to make Price of Progress Modern legal right? Catparty, I did see that post about Gut Shot a few pages back but agree with MisterMuffin21 it's still 1 or 2 damage a card.
MisterMuffin21, interesting to go Gruul, but what about this counter Proposal? **Everyone please excuse the text paste, I'm new and don't know how to update my deck with hyperlinks.
Atarka's Command is a skullcrack and pseudo Boros Charm in 1 assuming a single creature hits. Add the new Collision//Colossus. The Collision half is rarely relevant, but would see use versus flyers. The Colossus part is instant speed and pumps attack and defense with trample. Ghor-Clan Rampager pumps defense more but it's an activated ability that does not trigger Swiftspear prowess (this card turns swifty into 6/4 trample turn 3). I think this might actually make us more explosive than the Rakdos alternative with Bump. Maybe Mutagenic Growth is also an option here but for less damage.
Keeping 2 Sacred Foundry in the main let's us access white in the board. Some of us are already running 1 or 2 Stomping Ground in Boros for access to Revelry. I play lots of Merfolk in my meta and can't stand Spreading Seas shutting my sideboard off with only 1 fetch splash so that's a call for you in your local.
This is probably crazy, but...
Is it possible that a Mardu version of the deck at 19 lands wants a 1 of Mana Confluence in place of a shockland? I haven't built a 3 color mana base for this deck ever. Just thinking that a mana confluence would allow us to keep more 1 and 2 land hands without the need to mulligan. Assuming we are using the shockland untapped, that is equal to 2 turns of use vs. mana confluence. If it's only a 1 of, we can save it for our last land in hand when need be. It could help in some fringe situations where you need to cast 2 bump in the nights in the same turn, or boros charm plus path to exile.
I'm sure there are some math wizards out there who could help figure out if this helps with our mulligans and gameplay. Haven't tested this. Considering the deck should become faster with the addition of Skewer the Critics, could this land be more helpful and less painful than it looks?
I don't think I'd run it personally. Without the ability to fetch it when you need it and having to pay mana when you don't need it makes it unreliable in my opinion.
Is b. Charm rly worth it? Like... I'd rather run helix personally just on 2 reasons. If you hit an opponent, it's a 6 pt life swing, albeit the fetch shock comes out even, and it allows you to hit a creature which charm doesn't and there's fringe times I see the use of the other modes on charm.
The 4 point damage from Charm is really important in a lot of matches with opponent sitting at 7. That's why I was originally asking about Exquisite Firecraft as a mono red replacement option. I also think it's really important to note as well that the indestructible mode on Charm is an important loss if we remove the card. I've won several matches (most notably against Storm) where my opponent life totals were low and bolts were being thrown at Eidolon. Keeping him alive and preventing looting and/or copying shenanigans can be a deciding factor in a game. This is assuming we stay Rw of course because I do think Rb is a solid list of spells.
Sorry yes you're right. I did mean turn 5 ultimate in my post and not anthem. I'm imagining a deck running both Serra and worship and then hiding behind indestructible creatures and fogs. Wincon is your opponent flipping the table.
Sulfuric vortex would be spicy to get. I'm excited to see what's coming.
Turn 5 anthem is tough. Let's hope we get toys that equally scare people. I'm really hoping we get Price of Progress
I think there's two sides to this coin. First is positive in that our decks are really redundant and streamlined. A pseudo scry 7 and taking our choice of n-x spells for our game plan is pretty rewarding for us. In this sense, it allows us to cherry pick our tempo.
The flip side is it does the same for all other decks and absolutely puts us behind the eight ball with chalice and leylines. Unless these cards pop up in multiple main decks then we should be ok. Red already had the best answers for artifact hate.
Degenerate combos will move us to black to thought seize and inquisition of kozilek to rip hands apart. More leylines enchantments push us to splash more green and white. The point being, I think burn has lots of flexibility and our side boards will adjust accordingly if this new rule sticks. By no means am I saying it's easy though.
I agree this is definitely a two edged sword for a lot of decks, graveyard strategies included.
Lol maybe. Truth is I just don't know. That's why I'm throwing the topic out there
Rakdos
Pro
Lower CMC – faster
Access to hand disruption (Thoughtseize) for problematic combo decks ex) Ad Nauseum
Versatile Sideboard in Rakdos Charm
Rain of Gore is permanent anti lifegain
Terminate hits Planewalkers
Turn 0 graveyard hate leyline of the void (I concede Boros could also run this but not cast it later)
Boros
Pro
Boros Charm deals 4 damage and saves creatures
Lightning Helix life gain
Path to Exile is 1 mana exile (faster than Terminate)
More resilient to Chalice 1
More resilient options for the mirror (Helix is instant and targets creatures compared to Sovereign's Bite, Can run Kor Firewalker)
I think we're so close to mono red that I can taste it. That being said, I don't think Thunderous Wrath is the droid we're looking for. It's an amazing top deck but, it's dead in our opening hand and on the first draw because we need a land in play. On average our games go 4 to 5 rounds? I think it's more likely the card is in our hand or first draw then the last 3-4 draws making it unplayable. Enabling with magma jet could work but it's a 2cmc 2 damage card and also likely not where we want to be if it does not trigger the miracle.
Elcon - I also wanted to give props for the math/draw post a couple pages back. That was really insightful to read so thanks very much for that.
That's a fantastic point that I totally overlooked SnowCrow. I'd like to change my opinion and say yes, it's definitely worth considering and testing LUtS (although I still don't like Faithless Looting in Burn - I'd rather just draw the needed spell). Reading below and looking at CatParty's comments about the deck thinning, I can certainly get behind that. So the ultimate question becomes, how many do we want to run? If we run 8 spectacle cards (4 Skewer, 4 Stage), what are the chances of top decking this and requiring 3 CMC?
I'm not a fan personally of Light Up the Stage in Burn. We absolutely should be using it as a 1 CMC spell and want to sequence the Spectacle spells earlier but this presents a couple problems. If you flip a land or Rift Bolt, you can't cast them. If you cast LUtS on turn 2 (with 2 mana on board and 1 tapped to cast LUtS), then you only have 1 mana left and you can't cast Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Searing Blood, or any other 2 CMC spells. Lastly, aving 8 spectacle cards in the deck requiring damage first or costing 3 as a top deck could be tricky for us. I really like Skewer the Critics though as it has less chance to go sideways.
In regards to Light Up the Stage and Faithless Looting, I also wouldn't want to play them. They're awesome in other decks, don't get me wrong, But I'd rather top deck a burn spell rather than a card that loots and still requires enough mana to cast what I loot for.
DRev is faster, instant speed, costs less. More applicable to fast matchups.
Cinder Vines is good vs KCI, and longer matches - crazily enough mini eidolon 5-8 vs UW control.
I think DRev is still the better call but let's debate
I can agree with all points you're making. I should point out that I do not see pump spells as an optimal build for us. I'm begrudgingly accepting of the fact that we are no longer the fast deck on the block and more often than not lately are playing a control game and waiting for our moment to squeak in that last bit of damage. The suggestion was most certainly a grasp for that speedy explosiveness but you're right, with so much removal and so little creatures in our deck, it's dangerous.
That 2cmc 4 damage is important. Petition to make Price of Progress Modern legal right? Catparty, I did see that post about Gut Shot a few pages back but agree with MisterMuffin21 it's still 1 or 2 damage a card.
MisterMuffin21, interesting to go Gruul, but what about this counter Proposal? **Everyone please excuse the text paste, I'm new and don't know how to update my deck with hyperlinks.
Main Board (60)
Creature
(10) 4 Goblin Guide 2 Grim Lavamancer 4 Monastery Swiftspear Enchantment (4) 4 Eidolon of the Great Revel Basic Land (19) 2 Arid Mesa 4 Bloodstained Mire 5 Mountain 2 Sacred Foundry 2 Stomping Ground 4 Wooded Foothills Instant (15) 4 Atarka's Command 4 Lightning Strike 4 Searing Blaze 3 Collision // Colossus Sorcery (12) 4 Lava Spike 4 Rift Bolt 4 Skewer the Critics
Sideboard (15)
Enchantment (6) 3 Rest in Peace 3 Satyr Firedancer Instant (7) 2 Path to Exile 2 Deflecting Palm 3 Destructive Revelry Sorcery (2) 2 Exquisite Firecraft
Atarka's Command is a skullcrack and pseudo Boros Charm in 1 assuming a single creature hits. Add the new Collision//Colossus. The Collision half is rarely relevant, but would see use versus flyers. The Colossus part is instant speed and pumps attack and defense with trample. Ghor-Clan Rampager pumps defense more but it's an activated ability that does not trigger Swiftspear prowess (this card turns swifty into 6/4 trample turn 3). I think this might actually make us more explosive than the Rakdos alternative with Bump. Maybe Mutagenic Growth is also an option here but for less damage.
Keeping 2 Sacred Foundry in the main let's us access white in the board. Some of us are already running 1 or 2 Stomping Ground in Boros for access to Revelry. I play lots of Merfolk in my meta and can't stand Spreading Seas shutting my sideboard off with only 1 fetch splash so that's a call for you in your local.
I don't think I'd run it personally. Without the ability to fetch it when you need it and having to pay mana when you don't need it makes it unreliable in my opinion.
The 4 point damage from Charm is really important in a lot of matches with opponent sitting at 7. That's why I was originally asking about Exquisite Firecraft as a mono red replacement option. I also think it's really important to note as well that the indestructible mode on Charm is an important loss if we remove the card. I've won several matches (most notably against Storm) where my opponent life totals were low and bolts were being thrown at Eidolon. Keeping him alive and preventing looting and/or copying shenanigans can be a deciding factor in a game. This is assuming we stay Rw of course because I do think Rb is a solid list of spells.