MTG Salvation

Thanks Iso for the tutorial.

Thor, you're not looking for insight, you're looking to make me wrong, and make you right.

That's OK, it's your prerogative; and because I perceive any further conversation to be counterproductive... I will walk away. I know when to walk away.

Would telling you it was hyperbole have made you de-tunnel? Because someone else did say it. It was obvious to them.

Would you have thought me to be town suddenly, if I said it was hyperbole? Like whoa everybody, nobody lynch Kami ever she's obv town hyperboling all over me? Yay Thor/Kami townblock? You don't know that because you never paid any attention to all my other posts. Maybe they were bleeding town, maybe they were oozing scum. You had no idea, because you totally ignored all my other input outside of that one post.

Do people behave the same when you (1) annoy them and they're trying to ignore you or (2) are having positive interactions with you? Is that something you'd be willing to take into consideration when judging people's alignments based on the interactions you have with them?

When other players told you that you were tunneling, did you de-tunnel?

When other players told you it was obvious hyperbole, did you de-tunnel?

When I told you that you were tunneling, did you de-tunnel?

When other players told you that your beef with me was borne of wounded pride and a personal slight, and didn't care one bit about it, did you de-tunnel?

When you were never nightkilled, did it occur to you that your tunnel might have been helpful to the scum, and did you de-tunnel?

There was nothing, nothing to get you out of that tunnel over a single post on page 2, that lasted an entire game.

As a townie, did you think that your tunnel could look town to me?

As a townie, did you think I have left you alive had I been scum? Never mind the WIFOM; do you think I would have left you alive?

Quote from Rhand »

Ehm ISO means isolate someone's posts, right?
You can totally do that on this forum.

Easily and elegantly?

@ Thor

You keep forgetting that we played this game without an iso function... clearly that effects every MS'er play. I had to play very much "in the moment" and I didn't look back the way I usually do.

I never answered your question - because it was such obvious hyperbole that I thought your persistence about something this painfully evident meant that you were scum. I tend not to argue with scum. That's my unspoken motto. Don't argue with scum. It was also my Achilles' heel with DCIII. Plus I knew there was no argument (especially: "it was hyperbole!") that would convince you. Someone else chimed in and called it hyperbole on my behalf (Azrael of all people, if memory serves). Be honest. Would you have let go if I told you it was hyperbole? I would wager that you wouldn't have budged an inch.

I did bring up your tunneling issues, I was hoping to get help in reading other players from you, bounce back opinions with you... it's a good thing to do regardless of how you feel about a player's alignment. I got nothing from you. You were always right back to that one post that defined the game for you.

There are some players that WIFOM themselves "yes s/he looks town but COULD BE FAKING!!!!" - when in fact that level of emotion is quite hard to fake. My assumption is that when people fake, there is a lot less effort. Tammy was writing a lot of words for someone that's faking. She could write one post and lurk. But no. So she was NOT faking. Quantity is important here. Everything CAN be faked. But faking takes more effort and tires or bores the faker faster than the sincere person.

If you create reactions, and your judgment is going to be marred by "reactions are easy to fake" then don't bother creating reactions, it's not your thing. You just upset people for no game pay off - you tend not to know when/how to back down, when you crossed that line when it becomes personal because it's not longer about reading people's alignment... when you decided it could all be faked anyway. When you call someone for faking emotions, and 6 players chime in that Tammy is totes town for said emotions... consider that your skills at reading emotions are not good, and defer to the other players... back away, and concentrate on what you do best, which is picking up logical fallacies, and try to examine all players evenly and fairly for this.

I doubt you'll take advice from me, but I think your downfall is your complete inability to change your mind in the face of new evidence. I was trying to point out to you that you should be looking at other things in the game, but you pretty much refused to. The game was reduced to a single post: DGB said she could read me and that was a lie. Other than that one post, there was virtually no game worthy of notice, and I posted nothing else, either. Nothing counted but that one post.

With Tammy, it's failure to know it's time to disengage. It's fine to create reactions; you did just that. But her reaction was that of frustrated town. Once you make this judgement, you can say: OK you're town never mind. Or if after she reacts, you still can't read her... there is no point getting her to continue with that same reaction, except deeper and more extreme. You have to let go. There was nothing to be gained by making Tammy even more miserable. Why persist?

From my end I tend to see this inflexibility as something much more likely to be born of following a strict scum agenda, than from a townie who fumbles in the dark not knowing who his team mates are. Even as I was partly reading you as town in the end (look! I can change my mind and nothing bad happened!), your inability to consider other possibilities dragged you back into a scum read.

Hoopla

http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=10193

Quote from Azrael »

Ok, so who should we contact over on MS to start laying the groundwork for the eventual follow-up series?

The game is over, you can stop tunneling.

Quote from Rhand »

Hm, that Zen case was really scum-driven.
Did you ever read my analysis of it?

It could have gone either way. Zen was barely playing, he read me wrong right out of the gate (I also had to deal with persistent wrong reads from Thor & Iso), and I thought he was a good lynch myself as a townie.

All the MTGS players that were not bus'ing, LOL.

IMHO, Azrael's was perhaps the best scum performance I've ever seen.

When I'm scum I just troll... I should learn from the master.

Azrael is still town, LOL.

Cyan & Azrael played good games from my perspective. I don't mind losing to them.

Quote from DCIII »

Kami - why didn't you read my case? I really do feel like thats the best way to try to catch someone.

I knew you were scum and I knew you'd fake-convince your buddies no matter what I said. After LanguidJaguar's fateful vote, there was nothing I could do. And I knew that Thor wouldn't budge, so that put me in the hole quite a bit.

Quote from LanguidJaguar »

Quote from Kami of Lunacy »

What's sad is that you placed a vote that put me in hammering range and you didn't stick around to check the vote movements.

I did stick around, last night, this morning, and noon. But when you didn't mention my vote, at all, I felt like you didn't care about it, so I stopped.

I was very very confused by your vote, that I interpreted as a possible scum move from a town read. I just - I just didn't know what to think.

I actually thought he was town but it was really hard for me to reconcile his game-long persecution of me, and complete lack of looking at any other player, with a town agenda.

Say what you will... I looked at other players plenty.

We suffered a lot from too many replacements.

The scum replacement... well that's much easier because they know where they're going without reading the game, as shown by DCIII's entry into it.