I'm relatively new to EDH compared to most here, I've only been at this for 3 years where Kess (place held with Crosis for a few months) on release was my first deck. EDH was my window back into MtG after having left paper around Origins.
I learned very quickly that big money staples > thematic decks (especially with the mana base). This Kess deck was just Grixis control, using Crosis, Bolas and other relatively cheap beaters in the 99 to close games out. I still didn't have much in the way of a fleshed out mana base, since I bought precons only after a few games. From memory I think I had a Bloodstained Mire from my days playing Khans standard, a Temple of Epiphany and then guildgates with basics. Mana rocks consisted of Darksteel Ingot, a few Cluestones and a Worn Powerstone. As you'd expect from the first time running this pile sans Command Towers and Sol Rings, it did very little until one action would annoy the table (nature of control) and get me wiped out of the game in short order. But I was able to pick up on a few things that still speak to me now...
1) The guy running Uril, the Miststalker in my first game basically read: "You don't get to interact with me", which led to a very boring match being his first target. To this day I have no love for this Commander and will happily lose if it means countering every time he's cast. I play to have interactive back and forth games, not "can you answer this? Lose" which is no different to Sheldon's issues with the "feel bads" of infinite combo.
2) 2 players had Mana Crypts (1 had a Mana Vault) and fully fleshed out mana bases, but were running what I now know aren't "top tier" decks. They're just run to accelerate their game plan. one was the above mentioned Uril Voltron, the other was some Kruphix concoction I can't recall entirely, although I'm feeling "Big X Spells" came up a lot more than Eldrazi did. Kruphix was also running Oracle of Mul Daya too.
Now what was the overarching lesson for me from these 2 things? I needed to win faster. If I was going to be staring down lethal, unblockable commander damage or an overwhelming board state of enchantments Grixis has a sad time against, I needed a faster game plan. The issue was the cost some of these cards had, easy for older players long in the tooth who collected these in better times, but with a lot of the good ramp and win packages consisting of $20+ cards, this wasn't the "cheap, casual format" I was led to believe. So I took a different approach in looking at cheap, fast combos. 2 months and a few other precons experience later, I came very close to a full Kess Storm deck sans the mana base. The reaction of players at that LGS? "Get out of here with that tryharding pile". This shocked me a bit, surely these same players running one shot voltron decks or Craterhoof Behemoth wins wouldn't be that dim to not see how easily an Isochron Scepter win turn 8 achieved the same effect at the same speed? Fast forward to now and I still don't see Sheldon and others' arguments against infinite wincons as anything other than an old-guard grumbling that kids nowadays get bored of smacking plastic dinosaurs against each other for 2+ hours.
So, this one feels a lot less chicken little than Urza did given the amount of 2 card combos that this can create. Sure, the Sign in Blood double ups are cute and ruthlessly good value, but turning Wall of Blood into a better Yawgmoth's Bargain off the top of my head seems like it could end up being a problem.
Now for context, I didn't play during Griz-Daddy's time in EDH so I don't know how consistently he was castable as a commander, but I would imagine his power in the 99 was the cause by being cheated into play. Vilis really doesn't require that much set up at all with a whole swathe of free life paying outlets, even gaining insane value from Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb and Mana Vault to hard cast him early if you're desperate. The hilarious auto-loss to Nekusar not withstanding, this card could easily be on a power level worth considering. This is without even just straight looking at how much more broken Necropotence or Glacial Chasm becomes with this.
not sure if u get to set up draws with the whisperer. its an activated ability and the 2 life is part of the cost. so once you pay, it triggers this demon, so u draw 2 before u surveil 2.
at least thats what i think. i might be wrong
You are correct, but what I meant was it sets up your NEXT draws, as in subsequent to the first activation.
Also, Mana Vault to cast Not-Griz Daddy early and get another card on each upkeep thereafter.
Given how easy it is to include ways to negate the downside of letting your opponent tutor in all formats, some of which already run cards to do so, I don't see this being cheap.
It never makes a lick of sense to me when people speculate random tribes for Commander products.
That said, wolves have been one of the really obvious plants for upcoming tribal support. IF Kaldheim is truly the long rumored location of our next standard set after Core 2020 however, I'd actually guess the support would go there, given how the wolf would be a nordic theme WotC likely calls upon (whilst also being distinct from Werewolves for Innistrad).
The cycle lands from Amonkhet along with BFZ blocks return to landfall did somewhat hint at Lord Windgrace last year, along with Kaladesh as a whole providing huge support AND a theme for Saheeli's deck.
I haven't played more than 2 games using him myself, but I've done 12 games against Urza decks in the competitive scene now. Here's my updated takes:
1) He is absolutely faster than Teferi in both combo and lockdown, albeit slightly more vulnerable in being a creature to efficient removal. I didn't win either of my matches due to my inexperience with the deck, but of the 12 games 5 were easy wins and 4 were very centered around Urza about to go off first, even after repeated thrashings.
2) Urza feels very solved, despite not even being released yet. Maybe this is just the pattern we need to get used to with hype and brewing done so much earlier, but the most efficient cards perform exactly as expected. This seems to directly contrast with Niv Mizzet Reborn, who I've yet to see consistently put up the same results Tazri or Najeela has in 5 colour.
3) Due to the power level of most of these artifacts, killing Urza repeatedly is by no means a clean way to shut the deck down. Urza accelerates your game plan and provides a Thrasios-esque outlet, but ultimately you're still running Paradox Engine + Dramatic Scepter and a ton on mana rocks anyway to generate the mana needed to cast Urza and win. The quality of most of these artifacts tends to be higher overall than Arcum decks too, requiring less combo-specific chaff.
Not a large sample size obviously, but the fact he can hang with the big boys this easily speaks wonders for his power level. Whilst I'm still uncertain about how ban worthy he'll end up (that is more defined by casual play), I do find the dynamic he creates a tad dull in competitive. In those games I mentioned where Urza didn't win, but came very close, he required a great deal of interaction. Not only to stop combos, but because almost every artifact hitting play outside of rocks was going to hamper one of the other players, which sadly just let other combos win without opposition. Its like a faster, more consistent Brago stax deck in how it will affect the table, but Urza also doubles down on this by winning at the same time. To sum the experience of playing against this deck in one card on the ban list, its like Sylvan Primordial: Ramp yourself ahead whilst putting everyone else behind, now with added counterspell backup!
Also that with him and other new artifact-centric cards, banning him is merely a band aid on a larger problem involving artifact-centric decks that currently exists.
I think this is more the point I would agree with. What Urza really does is demonstrate how this deck already exists in its horribly broken state, waiting for a commander to appear to fully utilize it (either by breaking its stax parity, massively accelerating its game plan, or in Urza's case both).
But there are too many high power artifacts that feed on each other's broken synergies to just outright ban them all. I tend to find these decks much of a muchness, regardless of who leads them, so that already drains much of the brewing appeal to me looking for optimal tech.
@Loki_Lulamen This card is a finisher for white decks needing to push through their damage. No one casting this overloaded and not winning that turn will feel good.
My exposure to the format is limited. In what way is it faster? A lot of the fast mana and such is banned, so I don't quite get how it can be that much faster than Commander. Please elaborate?
Sure.
20 life is an easy number to knock down with the same effective pool of EDH. Fast mana isn't all banned, just the key things as with the EDH ban list along with Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt. Mox Diamond and pals are still usable, which makes artifact storm decks like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer able to pull off early combo wins consistently (bonus points seeing as you don't even need to use their triggered effects to set off Saheeli's passive).
Huatli, Heart of the Sun can play Birds of Paradise or Arboreal Grazer turn one into something like Skinshifter or Indomitable Ancients a turn after. With Huatli on board you've spent only 3 or 4 turns amassing something like 13 damage. Your opponent either has blockers/removal, or dies to Tower Defense. If you're not worried about creature aggro, then Koth of the Hammer would be happy to introduce an easy to reach emblem that provides tough inevitability to overcome. Something that makes more sense in Oathbreaker than EDH for example, are effects that grant you hexproof, or prevent non combat damage. Decks like Koth and Ral, Storm Conduit don't tend to have outs to these effects, or other ways to win.
Gideon led decks will also often dump down a T1-2 aggro creature, T3 Gideon and follow it with Armageddon before knocking down whoever is likely to recover fastest first. If all you do in that time is set up a slower game plan, you will lose.
The speed of Oathbreaker is its biggest appeal to me, due to the refreshing rate compared to EDH. I still love me some durdly Vial Smasher plays, but that sort of deck would get massacred in this format.
I learned very quickly that big money staples > thematic decks (especially with the mana base). This Kess deck was just Grixis control, using Crosis, Bolas and other relatively cheap beaters in the 99 to close games out. I still didn't have much in the way of a fleshed out mana base, since I bought precons only after a few games. From memory I think I had a Bloodstained Mire from my days playing Khans standard, a Temple of Epiphany and then guildgates with basics. Mana rocks consisted of Darksteel Ingot, a few Cluestones and a Worn Powerstone. As you'd expect from the first time running this pile sans Command Towers and Sol Rings, it did very little until one action would annoy the table (nature of control) and get me wiped out of the game in short order. But I was able to pick up on a few things that still speak to me now...
1) The guy running Uril, the Miststalker in my first game basically read: "You don't get to interact with me", which led to a very boring match being his first target. To this day I have no love for this Commander and will happily lose if it means countering every time he's cast. I play to have interactive back and forth games, not "can you answer this? Lose" which is no different to Sheldon's issues with the "feel bads" of infinite combo.
2) 2 players had Mana Crypts (1 had a Mana Vault) and fully fleshed out mana bases, but were running what I now know aren't "top tier" decks. They're just run to accelerate their game plan. one was the above mentioned Uril Voltron, the other was some Kruphix concoction I can't recall entirely, although I'm feeling "Big X Spells" came up a lot more than Eldrazi did. Kruphix was also running Oracle of Mul Daya too.
Now what was the overarching lesson for me from these 2 things? I needed to win faster. If I was going to be staring down lethal, unblockable commander damage or an overwhelming board state of enchantments Grixis has a sad time against, I needed a faster game plan. The issue was the cost some of these cards had, easy for older players long in the tooth who collected these in better times, but with a lot of the good ramp and win packages consisting of $20+ cards, this wasn't the "cheap, casual format" I was led to believe. So I took a different approach in looking at cheap, fast combos. 2 months and a few other precons experience later, I came very close to a full Kess Storm deck sans the mana base. The reaction of players at that LGS? "Get out of here with that tryharding pile". This shocked me a bit, surely these same players running one shot voltron decks or Craterhoof Behemoth wins wouldn't be that dim to not see how easily an Isochron Scepter win turn 8 achieved the same effect at the same speed? Fast forward to now and I still don't see Sheldon and others' arguments against infinite wincons as anything other than an old-guard grumbling that kids nowadays get bored of smacking plastic dinosaurs against each other for 2+ hours.
T1 - Glistener Elf
T2 - Sigarda's Aid + This, gg?
Yeah this won't end up being silly with the London mull.
So, this one feels a lot less chicken little than Urza did given the amount of 2 card combos that this can create. Sure, the Sign in Blood double ups are cute and ruthlessly good value, but turning Wall of Blood into a better Yawgmoth's Bargain off the top of my head seems like it could end up being a problem.
Now for context, I didn't play during Griz-Daddy's time in EDH so I don't know how consistently he was castable as a commander, but I would imagine his power in the 99 was the cause by being cheated into play. Vilis really doesn't require that much set up at all with a whole swathe of free life paying outlets, even gaining insane value from Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb and Mana Vault to hard cast him early if you're desperate. The hilarious auto-loss to Nekusar not withstanding, this card could easily be on a power level worth considering. This is without even just straight looking at how much more broken Necropotence or Glacial Chasm becomes with this.
How are we feeling on this one?
You are correct, but what I meant was it sets up your NEXT draws, as in subsequent to the first activation.
Also, Mana Vault to cast Not-Griz Daddy early and get another card on each upkeep thereafter.
Doom Whisperer now sets up your next draws.
Snuff Out kills a creature and draws me 4 cards FOR FREE!
Ancient Tomb now becomes the most busted land ever.
And oh how I wish I had a Mana Crypt to fail flips on...
Or Ojutaigam after an attack.
Its a different NGA. Some Japanese site.
That said, wolves have been one of the really obvious plants for upcoming tribal support. IF Kaldheim is truly the long rumored location of our next standard set after Core 2020 however, I'd actually guess the support would go there, given how the wolf would be a nordic theme WotC likely calls upon (whilst also being distinct from Werewolves for Innistrad).
The cycle lands from Amonkhet along with BFZ blocks return to landfall did somewhat hint at Lord Windgrace last year, along with Kaladesh as a whole providing huge support AND a theme for Saheeli's deck.
1) He is absolutely faster than Teferi in both combo and lockdown, albeit slightly more vulnerable in being a creature to efficient removal. I didn't win either of my matches due to my inexperience with the deck, but of the 12 games 5 were easy wins and 4 were very centered around Urza about to go off first, even after repeated thrashings.
2) Urza feels very solved, despite not even being released yet. Maybe this is just the pattern we need to get used to with hype and brewing done so much earlier, but the most efficient cards perform exactly as expected. This seems to directly contrast with Niv Mizzet Reborn, who I've yet to see consistently put up the same results Tazri or Najeela has in 5 colour.
3) Due to the power level of most of these artifacts, killing Urza repeatedly is by no means a clean way to shut the deck down. Urza accelerates your game plan and provides a Thrasios-esque outlet, but ultimately you're still running Paradox Engine + Dramatic Scepter and a ton on mana rocks anyway to generate the mana needed to cast Urza and win. The quality of most of these artifacts tends to be higher overall than Arcum decks too, requiring less combo-specific chaff.
Not a large sample size obviously, but the fact he can hang with the big boys this easily speaks wonders for his power level. Whilst I'm still uncertain about how ban worthy he'll end up (that is more defined by casual play), I do find the dynamic he creates a tad dull in competitive. In those games I mentioned where Urza didn't win, but came very close, he required a great deal of interaction. Not only to stop combos, but because almost every artifact hitting play outside of rocks was going to hamper one of the other players, which sadly just let other combos win without opposition. Its like a faster, more consistent Brago stax deck in how it will affect the table, but Urza also doubles down on this by winning at the same time. To sum the experience of playing against this deck in one card on the ban list, its like Sylvan Primordial: Ramp yourself ahead whilst putting everyone else behind, now with added counterspell backup!
I think this is more the point I would agree with. What Urza really does is demonstrate how this deck already exists in its horribly broken state, waiting for a commander to appear to fully utilize it (either by breaking its stax parity, massively accelerating its game plan, or in Urza's case both).
But there are too many high power artifacts that feed on each other's broken synergies to just outright ban them all. I tend to find these decks much of a muchness, regardless of who leads them, so that already drains much of the brewing appeal to me looking for optimal tech.
Sure.
20 life is an easy number to knock down with the same effective pool of EDH. Fast mana isn't all banned, just the key things as with the EDH ban list along with Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Mana Crypt. Mox Diamond and pals are still usable, which makes artifact storm decks like Saheeli, Sublime Artificer able to pull off early combo wins consistently (bonus points seeing as you don't even need to use their triggered effects to set off Saheeli's passive).
Huatli, Heart of the Sun can play Birds of Paradise or Arboreal Grazer turn one into something like Skinshifter or Indomitable Ancients a turn after. With Huatli on board you've spent only 3 or 4 turns amassing something like 13 damage. Your opponent either has blockers/removal, or dies to Tower Defense. If you're not worried about creature aggro, then Koth of the Hammer would be happy to introduce an easy to reach emblem that provides tough inevitability to overcome. Something that makes more sense in Oathbreaker than EDH for example, are effects that grant you hexproof, or prevent non combat damage. Decks like Koth and Ral, Storm Conduit don't tend to have outs to these effects, or other ways to win.
Gideon led decks will also often dump down a T1-2 aggro creature, T3 Gideon and follow it with Armageddon before knocking down whoever is likely to recover fastest first. If all you do in that time is set up a slower game plan, you will lose.
The speed of Oathbreaker is its biggest appeal to me, due to the refreshing rate compared to EDH. I still love me some durdly Vial Smasher plays, but that sort of deck would get massacred in this format.