I'm relatively new to EDH compared to most here, I've only been at this for 3 years where Kess (place held with Crosis for a few months) on release was my first deck. EDH was my window back into MtG after having left paper around Origins.
I learned very quickly that big money staples > thematic decks (especially with the mana base). This Kess deck was just Grixis control, using Crosis, Bolas and other relatively cheap beaters in the 99 to close games out. I still didn't have much in the way of a fleshed out mana base, since I bought precons only after a few games. From memory I think I had a Bloodstained Mire from my days playing Khans standard, a Temple of Epiphany and then guildgates with basics. Mana rocks consisted of Darksteel Ingot, a few Cluestones and a Worn Powerstone. As you'd expect from the first time running this pile sans Command Towers and Sol Rings, it did very little until one action would annoy the table (nature of control) and get me wiped out of the game in short order. But I was able to pick up on a few things that still speak to me now...
1) The guy running Uril, the Miststalker in my first game basically read: "You don't get to interact with me", which led to a very boring match being his first target. To this day I have no love for this Commander and will happily lose if it means countering every time he's cast. I play to have interactive back and forth games, not "can you answer this? Lose" which is no different to Sheldon's issues with the "feel bads" of infinite combo.
2) 2 players had Mana Crypts (1 had a Mana Vault) and fully fleshed out mana bases, but were running what I now know aren't "top tier" decks. They're just run to accelerate their game plan. one was the above mentioned Uril Voltron, the other was some Kruphix concoction I can't recall entirely, although I'm feeling "Big X Spells" came up a lot more than Eldrazi did. Kruphix was also running Oracle of Mul Daya too.
Now what was the overarching lesson for me from these 2 things? I needed to win faster. If I was going to be staring down lethal, unblockable commander damage or an overwhelming board state of enchantments Grixis has a sad time against, I needed a faster game plan. The issue was the cost some of these cards had, easy for older players long in the tooth who collected these in better times, but with a lot of the good ramp and win packages consisting of $20+ cards, this wasn't the "cheap, casual format" I was led to believe. So I took a different approach in looking at cheap, fast combos. 2 months and a few other precons experience later, I came very close to a full Kess Storm deck sans the mana base. The reaction of players at that LGS? "Get out of here with that tryharding pile". This shocked me a bit, surely these same players running one shot voltron decks or Craterhoof Behemoth wins wouldn't be that dim to not see how easily an Isochron Scepter win turn 8 achieved the same effect at the same speed? Fast forward to now and I still don't see Sheldon and others' arguments against infinite wincons as anything other than an old-guard grumbling that kids nowadays get bored of smacking plastic dinosaurs against each other for 2+ hours.
I haven't played more than 2 games using him myself, but I've done 12 games against Urza decks in the competitive scene now. Here's my updated takes:
1) He is absolutely faster than Teferi in both combo and lockdown, albeit slightly more vulnerable in being a creature to efficient removal. I didn't win either of my matches due to my inexperience with the deck, but of the 12 games 5 were easy wins and 4 were very centered around Urza about to go off first, even after repeated thrashings.
2) Urza feels very solved, despite not even being released yet. Maybe this is just the pattern we need to get used to with hype and brewing done so much earlier, but the most efficient cards perform exactly as expected. This seems to directly contrast with Niv Mizzet Reborn, who I've yet to see consistently put up the same results Tazri or Najeela has in 5 colour.
3) Due to the power level of most of these artifacts, killing Urza repeatedly is by no means a clean way to shut the deck down. Urza accelerates your game plan and provides a Thrasios-esque outlet, but ultimately you're still running Paradox Engine + Dramatic Scepter and a ton on mana rocks anyway to generate the mana needed to cast Urza and win. The quality of most of these artifacts tends to be higher overall than Arcum decks too, requiring less combo-specific chaff.
Not a large sample size obviously, but the fact he can hang with the big boys this easily speaks wonders for his power level. Whilst I'm still uncertain about how ban worthy he'll end up (that is more defined by casual play), I do find the dynamic he creates a tad dull in competitive. In those games I mentioned where Urza didn't win, but came very close, he required a great deal of interaction. Not only to stop combos, but because almost every artifact hitting play outside of rocks was going to hamper one of the other players, which sadly just let other combos win without opposition. Its like a faster, more consistent Brago stax deck in how it will affect the table, but Urza also doubles down on this by winning at the same time. To sum the experience of playing against this deck in one card on the ban list, its like Sylvan Primordial: Ramp yourself ahead whilst putting everyone else behind, now with added counterspell backup!
@Loki_Lulamen This card is a finisher for white decks needing to push through their damage. No one casting this overloaded and not winning that turn will feel good.
Since Genesis Wave is such a sweet card to pull off, but I wanted to be a little less obvious about it, here's an example of what I'm running. It won't stand up to the decks looking to break the format in half, but making your beefy rampers indestructible whilst drawing you cards feels like a dream.
Insulting or not, the objective answer is "no". Not that they should feel the need to restate why so many of the CAG and RC have publicly suggested PWs as commanders was a bad idea, but maybe it should have been lengthier to address why for those who need it spelled out for them.
Another thing to consider is the vast difference in design between most PWs for standard sets when compared to the ones in C18. The mono colored PWs included only 3 instances of an emblem, but arguably Daretti has the only one that can close the game out the following turn. Teferi emblem is not what makes him the strongest PW commander for EDH, with Ob Nixilis being a bit hard to take seriously leading a deck too. By comparison the C18 Walkers have no emblems whatsoever, a clear move to prevent them having an oppressive effect no one can interact with. Their ultimates also require some setup rather than just being outright wins. There have been plenty of instances in game I've played with or against Saheeli and Windgrace where using their ult is not beneficial or lacking in sufficient targets. Estrid you could and probably should always ultimate. Aminatou is a similar case to Teferi, where her ultimate is rarely useful and nowhere close to what a solid build around her even wants.
Now for standard set PWs, just use Ob Nixilis Reignited or Jace, Unraveler of Secrets as examples for how dull the design for the vast majority of them were for years. Race to emblems that lock the game down without ANY way to remove them possible regardless of how obscure you like to get with your card choices for some other problem permanents, card advantage on a plus, removal on a minus. There isn't anything these types of PWs bring to the format outside of encouraging builds that slow the game to a crawl and rush their emblem, board wipe forever and wait for the concessions to roll in. Now with WAR releasing, some of these could have been a nice option, but something about siting across from either Narset or Karn just screams "boring lock down incoming". Again, as the player base has proven in the past, the less benign builds of the most broken of commanders are the most commonly played (see Leovald).
"Sideboards don't exist in commander, therefore the card does not function."
End of the conversation, there isn't a "no, but" required. Same as other cards that benefit from multiple copies such as Hedron Alignment. EDH players aren't that dim to argue with a rule that has been put in place once they are made aware of it.
And this continues to be the worst possible option. If you don't want people to use wishes, simply ban them. Having a dozen or so cards legal but with literally no functional game text is just bonkers. Who exactly is this rule for? Isn't this the literal exact reason ya'll made Rule 0 for in the first place?
Between new Karn and Mastermind's Acquisition, Wizards has shown they're open to printing more effects of this type into the game, so increasing the banlist every time one of these gets printed on day 1 is a far less elegant way than simply denying the function full stop.
The other major discussion, driven by War of the Spark, was regarding planeswalkers as commanders. We will not be changing the definition of what can be a commander to allow all planeswalkers into the command zone. The RC and CAG were also unanimous on this point.
Finally. Let this point of contention die a death.
2
I learned very quickly that big money staples > thematic decks (especially with the mana base). This Kess deck was just Grixis control, using Crosis, Bolas and other relatively cheap beaters in the 99 to close games out. I still didn't have much in the way of a fleshed out mana base, since I bought precons only after a few games. From memory I think I had a Bloodstained Mire from my days playing Khans standard, a Temple of Epiphany and then guildgates with basics. Mana rocks consisted of Darksteel Ingot, a few Cluestones and a Worn Powerstone. As you'd expect from the first time running this pile sans Command Towers and Sol Rings, it did very little until one action would annoy the table (nature of control) and get me wiped out of the game in short order. But I was able to pick up on a few things that still speak to me now...
1) The guy running Uril, the Miststalker in my first game basically read: "You don't get to interact with me", which led to a very boring match being his first target. To this day I have no love for this Commander and will happily lose if it means countering every time he's cast. I play to have interactive back and forth games, not "can you answer this? Lose" which is no different to Sheldon's issues with the "feel bads" of infinite combo.
2) 2 players had Mana Crypts (1 had a Mana Vault) and fully fleshed out mana bases, but were running what I now know aren't "top tier" decks. They're just run to accelerate their game plan. one was the above mentioned Uril Voltron, the other was some Kruphix concoction I can't recall entirely, although I'm feeling "Big X Spells" came up a lot more than Eldrazi did. Kruphix was also running Oracle of Mul Daya too.
Now what was the overarching lesson for me from these 2 things? I needed to win faster. If I was going to be staring down lethal, unblockable commander damage or an overwhelming board state of enchantments Grixis has a sad time against, I needed a faster game plan. The issue was the cost some of these cards had, easy for older players long in the tooth who collected these in better times, but with a lot of the good ramp and win packages consisting of $20+ cards, this wasn't the "cheap, casual format" I was led to believe. So I took a different approach in looking at cheap, fast combos. 2 months and a few other precons experience later, I came very close to a full Kess Storm deck sans the mana base. The reaction of players at that LGS? "Get out of here with that tryharding pile". This shocked me a bit, surely these same players running one shot voltron decks or Craterhoof Behemoth wins wouldn't be that dim to not see how easily an Isochron Scepter win turn 8 achieved the same effect at the same speed? Fast forward to now and I still don't see Sheldon and others' arguments against infinite wincons as anything other than an old-guard grumbling that kids nowadays get bored of smacking plastic dinosaurs against each other for 2+ hours.
2
1) He is absolutely faster than Teferi in both combo and lockdown, albeit slightly more vulnerable in being a creature to efficient removal. I didn't win either of my matches due to my inexperience with the deck, but of the 12 games 5 were easy wins and 4 were very centered around Urza about to go off first, even after repeated thrashings.
2) Urza feels very solved, despite not even being released yet. Maybe this is just the pattern we need to get used to with hype and brewing done so much earlier, but the most efficient cards perform exactly as expected. This seems to directly contrast with Niv Mizzet Reborn, who I've yet to see consistently put up the same results Tazri or Najeela has in 5 colour.
3) Due to the power level of most of these artifacts, killing Urza repeatedly is by no means a clean way to shut the deck down. Urza accelerates your game plan and provides a Thrasios-esque outlet, but ultimately you're still running Paradox Engine + Dramatic Scepter and a ton on mana rocks anyway to generate the mana needed to cast Urza and win. The quality of most of these artifacts tends to be higher overall than Arcum decks too, requiring less combo-specific chaff.
Not a large sample size obviously, but the fact he can hang with the big boys this easily speaks wonders for his power level. Whilst I'm still uncertain about how ban worthy he'll end up (that is more defined by casual play), I do find the dynamic he creates a tad dull in competitive. In those games I mentioned where Urza didn't win, but came very close, he required a great deal of interaction. Not only to stop combos, but because almost every artifact hitting play outside of rocks was going to hamper one of the other players, which sadly just let other combos win without opposition. Its like a faster, more consistent Brago stax deck in how it will affect the table, but Urza also doubles down on this by winning at the same time. To sum the experience of playing against this deck in one card on the ban list, its like Sylvan Primordial: Ramp yourself ahead whilst putting everyone else behind, now with added counterspell backup!
1
1
1 Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter
1 Inspiring Call
Creature (25)
1x Arbor Elf
1x Armorcraft Judge
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Bane of Progress
1x Beast Whisperer
1x Boreal Druid
1x Champion of Lambholt
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Endless One
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Gyre Sage
1x Incubation Druid
1x Ivy Lane Denizen
1x Kalonian Hydra
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Marwyn, the Nurturer
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scrounging Bandar
1x Ugin's Conjurant
1x Verdurous Gearhulk
1x Walking Ballista
1x Beast Within
1x Benefactor's Draught
1x Nature's Claim
1x Solidarity of Heroes
Sorcery (2)
1x Genesis Wave
1x Shamanic Revelation
Artifact (1)
1x Paradox Engine
Enchantment (3)
1x Concordant Crossroads
1x Durable Handicraft
1x Song of the Dryads
Planeswalker (1)
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Land (22)
18x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1x Scavenger Grounds
1x Strip Mine
1
Another thing to consider is the vast difference in design between most PWs for standard sets when compared to the ones in C18. The mono colored PWs included only 3 instances of an emblem, but arguably Daretti has the only one that can close the game out the following turn. Teferi emblem is not what makes him the strongest PW commander for EDH, with Ob Nixilis being a bit hard to take seriously leading a deck too. By comparison the C18 Walkers have no emblems whatsoever, a clear move to prevent them having an oppressive effect no one can interact with. Their ultimates also require some setup rather than just being outright wins. There have been plenty of instances in game I've played with or against Saheeli and Windgrace where using their ult is not beneficial or lacking in sufficient targets. Estrid you could and probably should always ultimate. Aminatou is a similar case to Teferi, where her ultimate is rarely useful and nowhere close to what a solid build around her even wants.
Now for standard set PWs, just use Ob Nixilis Reignited or Jace, Unraveler of Secrets as examples for how dull the design for the vast majority of them were for years. Race to emblems that lock the game down without ANY way to remove them possible regardless of how obscure you like to get with your card choices for some other problem permanents, card advantage on a plus, removal on a minus. There isn't anything these types of PWs bring to the format outside of encouraging builds that slow the game to a crawl and rush their emblem, board wipe forever and wait for the concessions to roll in. Now with WAR releasing, some of these could have been a nice option, but something about siting across from either Narset or Karn just screams "boring lock down incoming". Again, as the player base has proven in the past, the less benign builds of the most broken of commanders are the most commonly played (see Leovald).
2
End of the conversation, there isn't a "no, but" required. Same as other cards that benefit from multiple copies such as Hedron Alignment. EDH players aren't that dim to argue with a rule that has been put in place once they are made aware of it.
5
Between new Karn and Mastermind's Acquisition, Wizards has shown they're open to printing more effects of this type into the game, so increasing the banlist every time one of these gets printed on day 1 is a far less elegant way than simply denying the function full stop.
1
Well its decided.
Nope.
4
Finally. Let this point of contention die a death.