It feels like the horrible things you'll face in Oathbreaker at times aren't accounted for with your interaction here. Your only answer for these earlier decks like Huatli and Gideon (who can present easy T3-4 kills on one player) is Counterspell?
If you're playgroup is, like yourself, building Oathbreaker decks as if they were EDH decks then sure, this will do fine. However, one of the big appeals for Oathbreaker is how fast the format is, which in my experience has led to a LOT of aggro decks and things like Storm.
Dark Ritual for T1 Ashiok or just general ramp seems like a must too, even letting you get Web or Matrix out earlier.
Leovold was closest, but he was banned because of how easy it was to throw in a bunch of windfalls and lock people out of the game. Him being an infinite mana sink is not enough to get him banned. Most people do not play infinite mana combos. He is not being banned for 1 or 2 activations per turn.
The only risk is if everyone builds him with Static orb, Winter Orb and friends. If everyone is playing Urza stax then he will be banned.
I just have a hard time believing that this is what the majority of players will do.
This is the potential danger I would consider given how close that strays into Leovold territory. Leovold ate a ban due to how easy his asymmetrical lock could be before grinding the game to a halt, not necessarily based on winrate (something often missed on why cards hit the ban list). Urza could do the same, but from a different angle of attack; by locking out the ability to cast spells whilst furthering his own. Although it is nowhere near as drama inducing as Leovold + Teferi’s Puzzle Box, Urza + Static Orb is cheaper overall and still furthers an actual gameplan without relying on what comes to your recycled hand each turn.
I also don’t feel the Legendary Creature should hold any weight on the wellbeing of the format. The point raised about needing to stay on board is also irrelevant given how the same argument can be laid at the feet of Leovold and others on the ban list and how easily they can die to removal.
Usually there's a whole "wait until its played for a bit" period for cards, but the issues with Urza can be seen a mile away and honestly, most of said issues are just better executions of things that exist now.
1) He's both an enabler AND an outlet for what he enables.
Not only does Urza have the ability to turn utility artifacts and colorless ramp artifacts you were going to use anyway into untapped and likely cheaper Sky Diamonds, he also provides an outlet for generating the insane and/or infinite mana you are going to chase when building him. You can next to ignore the first ability of putting an artifact into play, but if that ends up being your only untapped artifact upon resolving Urza, thats still a Swan Song or other instant represented.
I've seen some comparisons to other outlets in blue, along with Thrasios and Tasigur. Neither of these cards enables itself however, or at least in Thrasios' case it does not provide untapped mana unassisted when using that activated ability. Whilst it is true that going mono blue restricts access to tutors and other effects, lets not be coy; that didn't exactly stop Teferi now did it? Speaking of...
2) He's a faster version of a problem deck that already exists.
Sure, you aren't including the Chain Veil in this list, but there will be a vast amount of crossover with a cheaper Commander and less moving parts to interrupt along the way. Teferi has been out long enough for players to find the intricacies and corner cases I'm sure they'll use to demonstrate how much better he is than Urza, but if its THIS easy to find the obvious plays with Urza, then just think of all the corner case cheap artifacts that'll emerge to deal with the problems this deck would face.
3) It doesn't take any effort at all to break him, short of actively not including the card type he works with.
Even if you were desperate to pursue the casual route, include no infinite combos, build mono blue artifact tokens in a way that leaves Sai crying in the bin of obsolete ideas, you still have an unbelievably easy way to generate advantage on board from a 4 mana commander. If you untap with Urza, that'll be a dinner bell at the casual table. I get the legacy behind this character, I get the appeal of powerful Magic, but this card looks like it packs way too many strikes by itself. Vannifar required a specific chain, utterly ruined if you drew into one part of it, but this guy does not have such a draw back.
Dropping the Chicken Little complex now, but those are the 3 key things I see being an issue to support a banning. I doubt he'll be banned day 1 or receive the emergency treatment Griselbrand did, but Urza is only going to get stronger as time goes on. The thing is, with a baseline THIS good, how long does that last?
Just to add some clarity on what constitutes as "strong/consistent enough to be potentially banned in Oathbreaker", here's the 4 things one of their RC members have said are on the watch list.
1) Remaining fast mana rocks (Mox Diamond etc). This is to address the topic of consistency with their philosophy on fast mana, but also to close the gap between the "haves and have nots". Considering how easy Sol Ring is to access compared to a Mox Diamond for most players, I get the point here. Especially when one of the strongest archetypes is artifact storm with Saheeli or Tezzeret.
2) Mana Severance. If you've seen the Jace, Wielder of Mysteries + 58 Islands meme deck, you'll get why this is being considered. The deck isn't 100% overpowered, but it sets up an annoying dynamic of "kill this player before turn 6, now play the actual game." There are faster decks, there are stronger and more resilient decks, but there are no decks that come with the 100% certainty of winning of turn 6 without interaction.
3) The Elderspell. Although the pairing with new Bolas is very strong, this has been seen as an antithesis of the format. You're playing to use PWs as your commander with some cool synergies, this is bringing a full stop to that with the likelihood of a free ultimate out of it for 2 mana.
4) Narset, Parter of Veils. We're all familiar with this, but even the "fairer" decks that put something like a Force of Will in their signature slot still pack all the Windfall effects she abuses. Decks that sneak her into the 58 will also create a slog to overcome. Absolutely a chore to play against, even if it doesn't always win.
Other than that, there's a worrying tendency for players to just slap a board wipe in the command zone that is likely one sided (Sarkhan, Fireblood with Magmaquake, Ugin, the Ineffable with All Is Dust). Not sure what they could do to address that, it doesn't seem creative or interesting and creates a few stalls where no one plays anything once it is online.
They have also stated that "banned as Oathbreaker/Signature Spell" is very unlikely to be a thing vs an all out ban.
Since Genesis Wave is such a sweet card to pull off, but I wanted to be a little less obvious about it, here's an example of what I'm running. It won't stand up to the decks looking to break the format in half, but making your beefy rampers indestructible whilst drawing you cards feels like a dream.
Mox Opal, Mox Diamond and company are all unbanned (whilst the other fast mana is). Tezzeret can get thrown out pretty early on and just start refueling whilst draining the table for 5+ life a turn, pretty significant in a 20 life format. On top of that, Thoughtcast is refueling the hand consistently for 1 Blue on demand. If that still isn't enough for you, he's casting Karn/Ugin/Blightsteel and friends for near enough free. There's too many angles of attack, with the ability to just return anything you needed with Tezzeret too.
I don't see her eating a ban any more than Notion Thief would tbh, especially since she isn't available in the command zone.
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
Not interested in playing this variant, but I am surprised that you don't have Ashiok, Dream Render in the BaaC list or even on the watchlist. A three mana commander that can come out by turn 2 or 3 that kills all of your opponents' manafixing, ramp, tutors, and graveyard decks seems highly oppressive. If they don't draw their Terramorphic Expanse on turn one, they may not be able to play, and it isn't symmetrical - seems far worse than anything else on your watchlist.
Try turn 1 with a Dark Ritual. That's near enough a non-game for 4-5 and some 3 color builds. Doesn't combo in the zone with anything, but its in the colors to strongly tutor for a combo too.
It basically boiled down to the fact that there was no real upside beyond flavor and letting people play their favourite walkers as commanders. This was offset with a lot of downside, including the fact that we would have to ban at least six or more cards to implement this change without breaking the format. Additionally, planeswalker commanders slow down games a lot and allowing for blanket PW commanders would dilute a lot of the identity of the commander format.
I'd love to know what these 6 cards were. At a guess for some (and let me know if these are way off):
Considering how a whole category of cards deemed problematic falls down to "passing the Doubling Season test", I would have thought offing that would be the smartest route.
Insulting or not, the objective answer is "no". Not that they should feel the need to restate why so many of the CAG and RC have publicly suggested PWs as commanders was a bad idea, but maybe it should have been lengthier to address why for those who need it spelled out for them.
Another thing to consider is the vast difference in design between most PWs for standard sets when compared to the ones in C18. The mono colored PWs included only 3 instances of an emblem, but arguably Daretti has the only one that can close the game out the following turn. Teferi emblem is not what makes him the strongest PW commander for EDH, with Ob Nixilis being a bit hard to take seriously leading a deck too. By comparison the C18 Walkers have no emblems whatsoever, a clear move to prevent them having an oppressive effect no one can interact with. Their ultimates also require some setup rather than just being outright wins. There have been plenty of instances in game I've played with or against Saheeli and Windgrace where using their ult is not beneficial or lacking in sufficient targets. Estrid you could and probably should always ultimate. Aminatou is a similar case to Teferi, where her ultimate is rarely useful and nowhere close to what a solid build around her even wants.
Now for standard set PWs, just use Ob Nixilis Reignited or Jace, Unraveler of Secrets as examples for how dull the design for the vast majority of them were for years. Race to emblems that lock the game down without ANY way to remove them possible regardless of how obscure you like to get with your card choices for some other problem permanents, card advantage on a plus, removal on a minus. There isn't anything these types of PWs bring to the format outside of encouraging builds that slow the game to a crawl and rush their emblem, board wipe forever and wait for the concessions to roll in. Now with WAR releasing, some of these could have been a nice option, but something about siting across from either Narset or Karn just screams "boring lock down incoming". Again, as the player base has proven in the past, the less benign builds of the most broken of commanders are the most commonly played (see Leovald).
"Sideboards don't exist in commander, therefore the card does not function."
End of the conversation, there isn't a "no, but" required. Same as other cards that benefit from multiple copies such as Hedron Alignment. EDH players aren't that dim to argue with a rule that has been put in place once they are made aware of it.
And this continues to be the worst possible option. If you don't want people to use wishes, simply ban them. Having a dozen or so cards legal but with literally no functional game text is just bonkers. Who exactly is this rule for? Isn't this the literal exact reason ya'll made Rule 0 for in the first place?
Between new Karn and Mastermind's Acquisition, Wizards has shown they're open to printing more effects of this type into the game, so increasing the banlist every time one of these gets printed on day 1 is a far less elegant way than simply denying the function full stop.
Lazotep Reaver - Provides 2 bodies for 2 mana in black, rather than needing one to die like Doomed Dissenter does for example. I'm testing whether that upfront value is with decks that card about the amount of creatures sac'd to an effect (like the new Bontu) rather than providing a body post board wipe.
Lazotep Plating - This has been flying massively under the radar in testing. Situations where someone tries to remove a creature before combat with a player also having a Maze of Ith effect are pretty common across playgroups. Protecting all permanents also lets this one work for your lovely non-creature wincons.
Dreadhorde Invasion - Budget Bitterblossom for sacrificing at least one thing a turn to a Skullclamp for example, at worst gets bigger over time. If you already have is more expensive cousin, you won't need it though.
Any deck waning these kind of effects that also happens to have a zombie tribal theme will desire them even more so. These are just the 3 general use cards, some token zombie decks may want others.
If you're playgroup is, like yourself, building Oathbreaker decks as if they were EDH decks then sure, this will do fine. However, one of the big appeals for Oathbreaker is how fast the format is, which in my experience has led to a LOT of aggro decks and things like Storm.
Dark Ritual for T1 Ashiok or just general ramp seems like a must too, even letting you get Web or Matrix out earlier.
This is the potential danger I would consider given how close that strays into Leovold territory. Leovold ate a ban due to how easy his asymmetrical lock could be before grinding the game to a halt, not necessarily based on winrate (something often missed on why cards hit the ban list). Urza could do the same, but from a different angle of attack; by locking out the ability to cast spells whilst furthering his own. Although it is nowhere near as drama inducing as Leovold + Teferi’s Puzzle Box, Urza + Static Orb is cheaper overall and still furthers an actual gameplan without relying on what comes to your recycled hand each turn.
I also don’t feel the Legendary Creature should hold any weight on the wellbeing of the format. The point raised about needing to stay on board is also irrelevant given how the same argument can be laid at the feet of Leovold and others on the ban list and how easily they can die to removal.
Usually there's a whole "wait until its played for a bit" period for cards, but the issues with Urza can be seen a mile away and honestly, most of said issues are just better executions of things that exist now.
1) He's both an enabler AND an outlet for what he enables.
Not only does Urza have the ability to turn utility artifacts and colorless ramp artifacts you were going to use anyway into untapped and likely cheaper Sky Diamonds, he also provides an outlet for generating the insane and/or infinite mana you are going to chase when building him. You can next to ignore the first ability of putting an artifact into play, but if that ends up being your only untapped artifact upon resolving Urza, thats still a Swan Song or other instant represented.
I've seen some comparisons to other outlets in blue, along with Thrasios and Tasigur. Neither of these cards enables itself however, or at least in Thrasios' case it does not provide untapped mana unassisted when using that activated ability. Whilst it is true that going mono blue restricts access to tutors and other effects, lets not be coy; that didn't exactly stop Teferi now did it? Speaking of...
2) He's a faster version of a problem deck that already exists.
Sure, you aren't including the Chain Veil in this list, but there will be a vast amount of crossover with a cheaper Commander and less moving parts to interrupt along the way. Teferi has been out long enough for players to find the intricacies and corner cases I'm sure they'll use to demonstrate how much better he is than Urza, but if its THIS easy to find the obvious plays with Urza, then just think of all the corner case cheap artifacts that'll emerge to deal with the problems this deck would face.
3) It doesn't take any effort at all to break him, short of actively not including the card type he works with.
Even if you were desperate to pursue the casual route, include no infinite combos, build mono blue artifact tokens in a way that leaves Sai crying in the bin of obsolete ideas, you still have an unbelievably easy way to generate advantage on board from a 4 mana commander. If you untap with Urza, that'll be a dinner bell at the casual table. I get the legacy behind this character, I get the appeal of powerful Magic, but this card looks like it packs way too many strikes by itself. Vannifar required a specific chain, utterly ruined if you drew into one part of it, but this guy does not have such a draw back.
Dropping the Chicken Little complex now, but those are the 3 key things I see being an issue to support a banning. I doubt he'll be banned day 1 or receive the emergency treatment Griselbrand did, but Urza is only going to get stronger as time goes on. The thing is, with a baseline THIS good, how long does that last?
1) Remaining fast mana rocks (Mox Diamond etc). This is to address the topic of consistency with their philosophy on fast mana, but also to close the gap between the "haves and have nots". Considering how easy Sol Ring is to access compared to a Mox Diamond for most players, I get the point here. Especially when one of the strongest archetypes is artifact storm with Saheeli or Tezzeret.
2) Mana Severance. If you've seen the Jace, Wielder of Mysteries + 58 Islands meme deck, you'll get why this is being considered. The deck isn't 100% overpowered, but it sets up an annoying dynamic of "kill this player before turn 6, now play the actual game." There are faster decks, there are stronger and more resilient decks, but there are no decks that come with the 100% certainty of winning of turn 6 without interaction.
3) The Elderspell. Although the pairing with new Bolas is very strong, this has been seen as an antithesis of the format. You're playing to use PWs as your commander with some cool synergies, this is bringing a full stop to that with the likelihood of a free ultimate out of it for 2 mana.
4) Narset, Parter of Veils. We're all familiar with this, but even the "fairer" decks that put something like a Force of Will in their signature slot still pack all the Windfall effects she abuses. Decks that sneak her into the 58 will also create a slog to overcome. Absolutely a chore to play against, even if it doesn't always win.
Other than that, there's a worrying tendency for players to just slap a board wipe in the command zone that is likely one sided (Sarkhan, Fireblood with Magmaquake, Ugin, the Ineffable with All Is Dust). Not sure what they could do to address that, it doesn't seem creative or interesting and creates a few stalls where no one plays anything once it is online.
They have also stated that "banned as Oathbreaker/Signature Spell" is very unlikely to be a thing vs an all out ban.
1 Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter
1 Inspiring Call
Creature (25)
1x Arbor Elf
1x Armorcraft Judge
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Bane of Progress
1x Beast Whisperer
1x Boreal Druid
1x Champion of Lambholt
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Endless One
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Gyre Sage
1x Incubation Druid
1x Ivy Lane Denizen
1x Kalonian Hydra
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Marwyn, the Nurturer
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scrounging Bandar
1x Ugin's Conjurant
1x Verdurous Gearhulk
1x Walking Ballista
1x Beast Within
1x Benefactor's Draught
1x Nature's Claim
1x Solidarity of Heroes
Sorcery (2)
1x Genesis Wave
1x Shamanic Revelation
Artifact (1)
1x Paradox Engine
Enchantment (3)
1x Concordant Crossroads
1x Durable Handicraft
1x Song of the Dryads
Planeswalker (1)
1x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
Land (22)
18x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1x Scavenger Grounds
1x Strip Mine
Mox Opal, Mox Diamond and company are all unbanned (whilst the other fast mana is). Tezzeret can get thrown out pretty early on and just start refueling whilst draining the table for 5+ life a turn, pretty significant in a 20 life format. On top of that, Thoughtcast is refueling the hand consistently for 1 Blue on demand. If that still isn't enough for you, he's casting Karn/Ugin/Blightsteel and friends for near enough free. There's too many angles of attack, with the ability to just return anything you needed with Tezzeret too.
More enjoyable things I've faced have been like Nissa, Who Shakes the World with Genesis Wave, or Arlinn Kord and Moonmist making Werewolf tribal actually seem playable.
In the Oathbreaker variant however, she absolutely should be considered for a ban. Constant access to her + Windfall or Time Twister has been a pain even when focused.
Try turn 1 with a Dark Ritual. That's near enough a non-game for 4-5 and some 3 color builds. Doesn't combo in the zone with anything, but its in the colors to strongly tutor for a combo too.
I'd love to know what these 6 cards were. At a guess for some (and let me know if these are way off):
Considering how a whole category of cards deemed problematic falls down to "passing the Doubling Season test", I would have thought offing that would be the smartest route.
Another thing to consider is the vast difference in design between most PWs for standard sets when compared to the ones in C18. The mono colored PWs included only 3 instances of an emblem, but arguably Daretti has the only one that can close the game out the following turn. Teferi emblem is not what makes him the strongest PW commander for EDH, with Ob Nixilis being a bit hard to take seriously leading a deck too. By comparison the C18 Walkers have no emblems whatsoever, a clear move to prevent them having an oppressive effect no one can interact with. Their ultimates also require some setup rather than just being outright wins. There have been plenty of instances in game I've played with or against Saheeli and Windgrace where using their ult is not beneficial or lacking in sufficient targets. Estrid you could and probably should always ultimate. Aminatou is a similar case to Teferi, where her ultimate is rarely useful and nowhere close to what a solid build around her even wants.
Now for standard set PWs, just use Ob Nixilis Reignited or Jace, Unraveler of Secrets as examples for how dull the design for the vast majority of them were for years. Race to emblems that lock the game down without ANY way to remove them possible regardless of how obscure you like to get with your card choices for some other problem permanents, card advantage on a plus, removal on a minus. There isn't anything these types of PWs bring to the format outside of encouraging builds that slow the game to a crawl and rush their emblem, board wipe forever and wait for the concessions to roll in. Now with WAR releasing, some of these could have been a nice option, but something about siting across from either Narset or Karn just screams "boring lock down incoming". Again, as the player base has proven in the past, the less benign builds of the most broken of commanders are the most commonly played (see Leovald).
End of the conversation, there isn't a "no, but" required. Same as other cards that benefit from multiple copies such as Hedron Alignment. EDH players aren't that dim to argue with a rule that has been put in place once they are made aware of it.
Between new Karn and Mastermind's Acquisition, Wizards has shown they're open to printing more effects of this type into the game, so increasing the banlist every time one of these gets printed on day 1 is a far less elegant way than simply denying the function full stop.
Lazotep Plating - This has been flying massively under the radar in testing. Situations where someone tries to remove a creature before combat with a player also having a Maze of Ith effect are pretty common across playgroups. Protecting all permanents also lets this one work for your lovely non-creature wincons.
Dreadhorde Invasion - Budget Bitterblossom for sacrificing at least one thing a turn to a Skullclamp for example, at worst gets bigger over time. If you already have is more expensive cousin, you won't need it though.
Any deck waning these kind of effects that also happens to have a zombie tribal theme will desire them even more so. These are just the 3 general use cards, some token zombie decks may want others.
Well its decided.
Nope.