I do wonder if Mystical Tutor is a good include, offering a ton of flexibility around timing your responses as well as setting up mass reanimation. Once we go down that road, however, it's tough to argue against the other standalone tutors and then the deck loses some thematic relevance for speed/cEDH levels of interaction.
I've been weighing this add and think until my meta shifts crazily, i'll stick to Sidisi, Undeda Vizier being my only option on the tutor front.
3 mass reanimation spells seems like a good number. I'm trying out Rot Hulk as a sort of 4th, just because he looks cool and is another zombie himself (plus, reanimating him some other way--Havenghoul--is going to be a lot of value).
Rot Hulk is awesome, but it’s expensive price and cmc, so I just went for Bidding.
Going to pull Fleshbag Marauder to make room...edict effect is great but off theme for my focuses. Also a leftover from my old dimir build that could more reliably recast it every turn.
Not sure if you run Corpse Connoisseur but it's not a strict tutor, and Gravecrawler was my go-to target to Entomb with this every single time. It's a bit high on the curve, but then 4BB for 2 bodies isn't all that bad either, especially considering how gross Gravecrawler can be, and both can be recurred. Unearth is weird, but it's not awful either. I was actually a little bummed to be pulling Connoisseur out of my build, it was such a nice interaction.
I had Corpse Connoisseur in for awhile helping me bring out Wonder as well. Lost it because it's a pretty narrow tutor, high cmc as you well know, and I'm learning I don't necessarily want my opponents seeing me dump a Gravecrawler and turn their heat my way.
As for Corpse Knight , you're right about Vengeful Dead, it's just a shame it costs 4CMC for the same effect. Maybe I developed a premature attachment to Unsettled Mariner, but he actually is a real stopper for anyone trying to combo-off with an activated ability that targets (like Niv-Mizzet, Parun) if that's something you see in local metas.
I'm also picking up Patriarch's Bidding to bring my mass recursion total to 3 (y'all make it sound so juicy). Think that will ensure I see at least one graveyard dumper every game if Varina is active a few turns. I'm going to replace Victimize even though it's excellent since I like the balance of effects i'm currently at. Just keeps my lines of play simpler too. Less temptation to spring the coop too early.
I kind of want to just swap Corpse Knight for Vengeful Dead, but it works too well with Tombstone Stairwell...perhaps that just a one-off interaction that i shouldn't put so much weight on.
More likely just an addition since it adds another combo outlet for Gravecrawler, even though that's not the main win-con (no strict tutors in my build).
If Phyrexian Reclamation doesn't end up being the instant speed hand refiller that i hope it can be, this is the value swap. Don't really need slow recursion---always go forward until we dump them all out.
Normally this is just a great recursion spell, but with Varina’s ability it essentially reads “pay 2 life, pay 2 mana: draw a card” whenever she activates from attack triggers by stacking your hand with creatures you can repitch to the graveyard.
Will do——my understanding from long time friends is it’s proven to be invaluable in mono white, and they recommend it in any deck that can play it and uses creatures. Plus for 1CMC it can come down any turn almost as an ancillary cast with leftover mana turns 4-8.
I feel like it’d be a decent addition, provided you can make it work quickly. In my experience it lasts a turn or two tips before getting removed. Seems a nice way to follow up from Living Death or a mass reanimation spells of some other kind. From memory I believe the way to play it is to make sure the crusade trigger is last on the pile - that way every creature entering the battlefield gets the full run of counters.
You're very right about the delay! I forget that unless its late game it might not even make it around...that's why i removed some high CMC cards already so make sense to hold that philosophy.
Speaking of curve-dropping---i'm trying out Authority of the Consuls as more incidental life gain and a great light and early stax piece that interacts directly with opponent's tempo of dealing with combat.
Has anyone tried Cathar’s Crusade? Feels like it can really scale the anthems and might be good in addition to all the lords and maybe replace Liliana’s Mastery? Or take Sorin’s flex spot and choose anthems over lifegain tech.
So is anyone actually leaning out of tribal synergies in favor of these "better but off-theme" options? Consecrated Sphinx is fantastic but once you start considering that and others, the deck is simply much better suited to be a control build that makes zombies with Varina to activate her ability.
The opinions are a bit all over the place in this thread, so I wanted to ask in general if Varina pilots in general prefer the power of bombs like Rooftop Storm and Army of the Damned, or if keeping the overall CMC of the deck low is preferable. My build is roughly 3.25 right now, which feels pretty speedy, but there are probably some more ways to get it down unless it's clear the advantage of running high cost synergy cards is worth keeping it up.
Also for what it's worth, here's some thoughts on cards being discussed more. I don't get the chance to play too much so threads like this are so so helpful for me to keep my deck in fighting shape between matches:
Zombie Infestation - since Varina came out, and i've almost never been in a position to take advantage of it's effect---i'm always valuing my hand size and having more options when Varina triggers, especially when her activated ability is so similar.
Archfiend of Ifnir - as stated, asymmetric boardwipes are insanely valuable.
Binding Mummy - think i saw someone here discount it, but that's a mistake...it can be really useful and is frequently undertargeted.
Tombstone Stairwell - need to be more strategic when this is deployed...haven't seen it's true power yet and hope to get it online in my favor soon.
Liliana, Untouched by Death - w/o Rooftop Storm i don't think it's great for a midrange tribal build. Maybe the other Lily's have better use but haven't tried yet
Havengul Lich - this one darts in and out of my build depending on how I feel about single vs. mass reanimation focus. Like mentioned, it's expensive at 5CMC and unless i'm specifically working to gut my opponent's graveyard for value I worry it's more often just a 4/4. Kept it in more a long time for flavor reasons (Lich clan anyone?) but removed it and Gisa and Geralf to focus spending my mana on interaction and new creatures, saving everything in my graveyard for the big plays.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - counter to the above, maybe something like this is good to have for select instances of one-off recursion. Waiting for more opinions on how well it continues to run, but having a pseudo Whip of Erebos with loyalty-costed reanimation seems toolboxy enough even without the flavor.
Anointed Procession - when balancing tribal vs token build, its tough to decide on this, but overall I think it's still worth slotting since even tribal has a ton of incidental token dropping (Oketra, Diregraf, Varina, Noosegraf, etc.)
Smothering Tithe - even without wheels, it's worth it simply to draw out opponent removal or have them suffer the ramp consequences. If another player wheels well then it's payday.
Undead Augur - going to replace a low CMC zombie ASAP for more (scary) draw potential. Midnight Reaper stays in too.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - I have no traditional tutors in the deck, but having one stapled to one creature can be incredibly helpful so I think it stays just for that. Deathtouch is cool.
The WAR Zombie token enablers are awesome, but other than Gleaming Overseer which comes down before Varina sometimes and makes 2 bodies, I can't imagine any of them replacing other utility slots in a tribal build. Again, token builds may feel differently.
I can definitely see why you'd cut those. They're both pretty thirsty cards in their own ways, and if they're your combo line you really need to build around speeding into them to optimise how that looks. That being said, they both have some degree of intrinsic value in themselves, although Lili is definitely more so - she's removal, graveyard filler, reanimation enabler. Rooftop Storm is definitely the combo enabler here, and if it's proving too tough to make that work I could see it going. That being said there's plenty of combos you could work into the list that wouldn't require Rooftop Storm. We can go over some of these if you like.
By the time I have Rooftop Storm in hand, i'm usually happy with my board-state and am working toward a mass reanimation. Liliana is capable of doing work on her own, but I don't really want to be milling as much as cycling (in case I lose important response spells) and she is ideally ult'd the turn she drops with rooftop on the field to play all my yard zombies for free. I think I may lose them both for Mystic Remora and another reanimation play (maybe Command the Dreadhorde or Finale of Eternity from WAR? Don't want to spend too much more and would love other cheap choices for resolving a zombie tribal plan) and keep dropping my deck's CMC.
Mind sharing some of those other combos? I try to keep them to a minimum since again, not running tutors...but Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar are great with zombistocrat package, or paired with God-Eternal Oketra.
I've been weighing this add and think until my meta shifts crazily, i'll stick to Sidisi, Undeda Vizier being my only option on the tutor front.
Rot Hulk is awesome, but it’s expensive price and cmc, so I just went for Bidding.
Going to pull Fleshbag Marauder to make room...edict effect is great but off theme for my focuses. Also a leftover from my old dimir build that could more reliably recast it every turn.
I had Corpse Connoisseur in for awhile helping me bring out Wonder as well. Lost it because it's a pretty narrow tutor, high cmc as you well know, and I'm learning I don't necessarily want my opponents seeing me dump a Gravecrawler and turn their heat my way.
As for Corpse Knight , you're right about Vengeful Dead, it's just a shame it costs 4CMC for the same effect. Maybe I developed a premature attachment to Unsettled Mariner, but he actually is a real stopper for anyone trying to combo-off with an activated ability that targets (like Niv-Mizzet, Parun) if that's something you see in local metas.
I'm also picking up Patriarch's Bidding to bring my mass recursion total to 3 (y'all make it sound so juicy). Think that will ensure I see at least one graveyard dumper every game if Varina is active a few turns. I'm going to replace Victimize even though it's excellent since I like the balance of effects i'm currently at. Just keeps my lines of play simpler too. Less temptation to spring the coop too early.
More likely just an addition since it adds another combo outlet for Gravecrawler, even though that's not the main win-con (no strict tutors in my build).
If Phyrexian Reclamation doesn't end up being the instant speed hand refiller that i hope it can be, this is the value swap. Don't really need slow recursion---always go forward until we dump them all out.
Normally this is just a great recursion spell, but with Varina’s ability it essentially reads “pay 2 life, pay 2 mana: draw a card” whenever she activates from attack triggers by stacking your hand with creatures you can repitch to the graveyard.
Is there room for something like this?
What’s the split y’all are finding between high cost synergies and just getting to play at a higher rate?
Also unsettled mariner did stop a whole wheel of damage from a niv-mizzet so it’s earning its keep hahaha
I’ll keep you posted!
You're very right about the delay! I forget that unless its late game it might not even make it around...that's why i removed some high CMC cards already so make sense to hold that philosophy.
Speaking of curve-dropping---i'm trying out Authority of the Consuls as more incidental life gain and a great light and early stax piece that interacts directly with opponent's tempo of dealing with combat.
https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/171/564/636947830813160880.png
So is anyone actually leaning out of tribal synergies in favor of these "better but off-theme" options? Consecrated Sphinx is fantastic but once you start considering that and others, the deck is simply much better suited to be a control build that makes zombies with Varina to activate her ability.
The opinions are a bit all over the place in this thread, so I wanted to ask in general if Varina pilots in general prefer the power of bombs like Rooftop Storm and Army of the Damned, or if keeping the overall CMC of the deck low is preferable. My build is roughly 3.25 right now, which feels pretty speedy, but there are probably some more ways to get it down unless it's clear the advantage of running high cost synergy cards is worth keeping it up.
Also for what it's worth, here's some thoughts on cards being discussed more. I don't get the chance to play too much so threads like this are so so helpful for me to keep my deck in fighting shape between matches:
Zombie Infestation - since Varina came out, and i've almost never been in a position to take advantage of it's effect---i'm always valuing my hand size and having more options when Varina triggers, especially when her activated ability is so similar.
God-Eternal Oketra - auto-include
Archfiend of Ifnir - as stated, asymmetric boardwipes are insanely valuable.
Binding Mummy - think i saw someone here discount it, but that's a mistake...it can be really useful and is frequently undertargeted.
Tombstone Stairwell - need to be more strategic when this is deployed...haven't seen it's true power yet and hope to get it online in my favor soon.
Liliana, Untouched by Death - w/o Rooftop Storm i don't think it's great for a midrange tribal build. Maybe the other Lily's have better use but haven't tried yet
Havengul Lich - this one darts in and out of my build depending on how I feel about single vs. mass reanimation focus. Like mentioned, it's expensive at 5CMC and unless i'm specifically working to gut my opponent's graveyard for value I worry it's more often just a 4/4. Kept it in more a long time for flavor reasons (Lich clan anyone?) but removed it and Gisa and Geralf to focus spending my mana on interaction and new creatures, saving everything in my graveyard for the big plays.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord - counter to the above, maybe something like this is good to have for select instances of one-off recursion. Waiting for more opinions on how well it continues to run, but having a pseudo Whip of Erebos with loyalty-costed reanimation seems toolboxy enough even without the flavor.
Anointed Procession - when balancing tribal vs token build, its tough to decide on this, but overall I think it's still worth slotting since even tribal has a ton of incidental token dropping (Oketra, Diregraf, Varina, Noosegraf, etc.)
Smothering Tithe - even without wheels, it's worth it simply to draw out opponent removal or have them suffer the ramp consequences. If another player wheels well then it's payday.
Undead Augur - going to replace a low CMC zombie ASAP for more (scary) draw potential. Midnight Reaper stays in too.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier - I have no traditional tutors in the deck, but having one stapled to one creature can be incredibly helpful so I think it stays just for that. Deathtouch is cool.
The WAR Zombie token enablers are awesome, but other than Gleaming Overseer which comes down before Varina sometimes and makes 2 bodies, I can't imagine any of them replacing other utility slots in a tribal build. Again, token builds may feel differently.
By the time I have Rooftop Storm in hand, i'm usually happy with my board-state and am working toward a mass reanimation. Liliana is capable of doing work on her own, but I don't really want to be milling as much as cycling (in case I lose important response spells) and she is ideally ult'd the turn she drops with rooftop on the field to play all my yard zombies for free. I think I may lose them both for Mystic Remora and another reanimation play (maybe Command the Dreadhorde or Finale of Eternity from WAR? Don't want to spend too much more and would love other cheap choices for resolving a zombie tribal plan) and keep dropping my deck's CMC.
Mind sharing some of those other combos? I try to keep them to a minimum since again, not running tutors...but Gravecrawler + Phyrexian Altar are great with zombistocrat package, or paired with God-Eternal Oketra.