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  • posted a message on Theros beyond death the basics (well confirmed real actually)
    I hope we are also getting regular Grecian landscape basic lands though


    One basic per type in a "large" set would be a bit sparse. Probably some normal landscapes and these in the uncommon slot like the Hour of Devastation full-arts.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on New info about ikoria


    What was that large power ranger talking "aboat"?
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Full textless Path revealed
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    Wait... are them from Kylem?

    That was one of my first thoughts on seeing them too. They certainly look like it, with the big arena wall around them.


    That was far too grammatical.
    <clears throat/>
    Yeahhuh. Them's from Kylem
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on 11/18/19 Big Bannings
    Quote from xaltair »
    Quote from milo_bloom »
    I feel like this is confirmation that the higher ups at WotC had no faith in this set's ability to sell based off of a combination of its themes, setting and lack of a Jacetice League member, so they relied on the tried and true method of adding a couple pushed cards to the set to ensure it sold well. Play Design had been doing such a great job, this is really the only reason I can think of for why this set has experienced so many problems.

    I mean everyone immediately knew Oko was going to be oppressively good. There is no way Play Design missed that, or let it slip through the cracks.


    I haven't been following the tournament play as well, but I understand the issue is using Oko to turn things into Elks? So Play Design tested the ability on their own creatures, but players use it how?


    He can turn the food token into an elk too, so he keeps making 3/3 creatures every other turn.
    Also he can exchange the food token for a small creature that the opponent has, so he controls the board by himself.
    Glad I don't have any since the price will go down to about $20-$25 now, same for once upon a time.
    I traded mine into the lgs last weekend for $17 which was a good move since now it'll be close to that price.


    Note also that he is creating permanents on your side and neutering the opponent's threats, and it is all plus actions for him.

    As Altair mentioned, there is no way that testing just missed how oppressive Oko was, and how good free spells are. Those two cards are featured on more marketing art than any others for the set. They're showcase parts of the product.

    It is past time to stop presuming mistakes. WotC intended for these pushed cards to drive sales, and then to ban them after they had done. It is time to presume this kind of bait-and-switch intent as their business model.



    Caveat emptor.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on 'Mystery Booster' product
    Quote from Lectrys »
    Quote from foam_dome »
    MaRo ponders..."can I poop in a mylar baggie and expect people to buy it? I think I can..."


    MaRo designs Standard sets, he doesn't sell anything

    I think you missed the point. As far as I can tell, the statement Elostirion(again) made indicates that s/he thinks MaRo is lying about the product's true name.


    @foam_dome: Only technically. MaRo is a salesperson first and a designer second. Just read anything he writes to see that. Or at least every part of MaRo that customers see is that way.

    @Lectrys You're closer, but not in the gold. This is my fault though. I think a lot more than I write usually, especially on message boards, because I'm trying not to be pedantic and boring but to quickly stab at the heart of the topic and get back to my work. I presume most people are happy to either get my message or let it blow by them with all the other stuff on the interwebs they dont already agree with. But if someone takes the interest to respond, especially with curiosity, then I'm happy to elaborate.

    We the Magic customers, are fairly notorious for studying MTG product releases. We're actually held up as the gold standard for other gaming genres as examples of informed customers, if you want to know. We reverse engineer printer collation logistics and distribution patterns and calculate ROI on an unopened pack of whatever the new set is before it hits the shelves to determine how much, if any, to buy of it. We're all kinds of awesome that way.

    Sometimes it sucks though, because that sucks the fun out of some things. Magic is a game which changes so frequently because at any given instant, it has a limited shelf life. Any given Standard metagame for example, has 1-3 top tier decks, and 5-7 decks which would be fun to play with and play against if you didnt know that everyone (or most everyone) was going to bring a top tier deck. The more analysis we do hastens the consolidation of the metagame away from containing 6-10 decks toward containing 1-3 decks. Its gotten so bad that the first tournament in the Standard which is only a week old skipped straight to the 1-3 stage, with 67% of the field being Golos, 20% being Oko (a meta-response to Golos) and about 10% everything else. Even pre-releases are massively meta'd, with most players knowing all the cards and the likely selection sets for a 'good' sealed pool or expectations for draft.

    Our type of awesome can suck some of the fun away.

    Now we have a product that we get to know nothing about. It could seem to be a nice counter/response to this trend. Curate a tournament environment that WotC believes will be viable, but the players dont get to hyperanalyze. It could allow more of the metagaming to take place alongside the actual gaming. It could lower the barrier to fun by taking away the requirement to study hard, and spend money in just the right places before playing. Grumpy old farts like me chould love this.

    But details matter. Delivery matters. Did MaRo, consummate sales-pitch-artist that he is, take the time to say any of this? One sentence would be enough. No. What's the price of the product? Closer to a premium product than a commodity-draft product. That suggests to me that this is not a product intended to do the positive things I've written above. It suggests to me that this is yet another cash grab, and when the rest of marketing campaign for this product comes out, I'll think that its just as half-baked as most of the rest of what they've done since about 2004.

    So with your telepathic powers in play, the statement that Elostirion(again) made indicates that he is merely bu++hur+ that a product he could have really enjoyed, which might have shown that WotC noticed and seeks to mitigate a drain on the fun is instead, not that thing. Smile
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on 'Mystery Booster' product
    Quote from DJK3654 »
    https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/188350074633/is-mystery-boosters-actually-named-mystery
    It’s actually called “Mystery Booster”.

    That puts an end to any speculation this is actually going to be Conspiracy 3 or anything like that.


    MaRo ponders..."can I poop in a mylar baggie and expect people to buy it? I think I can..."
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from Xeruh »
    1. Pop culture isn't about right or wrong. If pop culture thinks that kraken are a Greek thing then pop culture thinks they're a Greek thing. The point is not that pop culture is right about how similar Greece and Rome are, but that they consider them to be, at best, two sides of the same coin. Not something as different as... I don't know, Greek and Norse mythology or the like.

    2. Because planes in Magic are now being built primarily around pop culture I don't think that the pop culture take of Rome has enough to stand on its own legs. This, again, is because in pop culture the two overlap very heavily, and the areas they don't overlap are not enough, again in my opinion, to make an interesting set.

    3. Ravnica is not a set inspired by Rome. You could argue it is a set that looks like Rome and that is much more subjective, but it is not a top down Rome set, there isn't any room for debate on that matter unless you are going to cite Maro saying otherwise. The story for it goes that they started with mechanics, ten two color pairs, and then the Creative team came back with the idea of Guilds and went from there.

    4. Regardless of how similar you thin Ravnica is to a top down Rome set, the question is not whether you think it is. You are far, far, far, far from general pop culture understanding of Rome, you're not even in the ballpark. So the important question then is does the layperson, the not a student of Classics, think Ravnica is a top down Rome set. And I would be willing to say with confidence that the majority would not think it is. If you have to point to specific things and say "these are things of Rome", then you've failed at the pop culture aspect. You don't need to point at mummies in Amonkhet for people to get it's Egyptian.

    5. I didn't once say that mythology was needed for a Rome set. What I said is that outside of mythology the only things of note from a pop culture standpoint are gladiators and empires. Your examples only emphasize that point, not detract from it.

    6. None of this is to say that WotC can't do a Rome set. But as I said I don't think that it stands on its own, as a whole plane ala Theros, very well from a pop culture standpoint. Because again, the pop culture understanding is fairly shallow and Wizards doesn't want to do anything too deep.

    7. If Maro does not say that Ravnica is inspired by Rome then it's not, barring someone from Creative (or higher than Maro I suppose) contradicting him. We can explicitly say that Ravnica is not a top down Rome set though, so regardless of how much of a duck you think it is Ravnica is not a duck. It's also pretty disingenuous to call it a duck when it's more a series of traits that ducks have that other animals can have as well.



    You're arguing against things which are pretty far afield from what your rhetorical "opponents" were actually saying. He didnt say Ravnica was an intentionally designed top down Rome emulation. He said that if you were to do such a thing, it wouldnt look very different from Ravnica.

    I on the other hand, didnt say what qualifies or does not qualify as pop culture. I argued (very briefly) that it is a depressing target for modern storytellers and content creators to shoot at. From a marketing standpoint, they're undeniably right to do so. It is still a sad statement about we, the fanbase.

    The one thing from this list that I will continue to oppose is number seven. Just because MaRo says something doesnt mean it is true. Even if he is telling you WotC policy or history, or even what he had for breakfast on a given day. He is a salesman before anything else. He will, can, has, and maybe even should say anything to sell his product, without regard to actual facts. You would be a fool to trust him.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from Flamebuster »
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Perhaps this time around people can refrain from using the incorrect term "Greco-Roman" to describe a plane that is expressly not influenced by Rome.


    It won't happen until we get a real roman plane (like the home of Licia, sanguine tribune)


    I still think that decision not to have it be Greek and Rome is kind of silly. While I can see a Rome world being different from Greek world I feel they'd simply overlap a bit too much without some other major draw.


    Please no more this.

    MaRo (and most other content creators) are already presuming that most of their audiences are idiots. Please dont encourage them.

    Greece and Rome are nothing alike, except one day a bunch of militant rapists decided that they might need some cultural values if their cartel was going to last more than a generation or three after achieving a comfortable amount of assets, so they went and conquered a country which had some and took that too.

    You sure about that? Throne of Eldraine was created after Lorwyn was disliked as it remained too true to the source material and not as trope-y as players would have liked or known about. The player base proved their idiocy than anything else. MaRo et al were just responding in kind.

    'buster


    Please justify this. Precisely what source material do you declare was used for Lorwyn?

    (just because MaRo was quoted on something, and MTG wiki repeats it without justification doesnt make it true.)

    There have been more lies told about that set then many others I remember. Dont just keep repeating them please.


    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from Xeruh »
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Perhaps this time around people can refrain from using the incorrect term "Greco-Roman" to describe a plane that is expressly not influenced by Rome.


    It won't happen until we get a real roman plane (like the home of Licia, sanguine tribune)


    I still think that decision not to have it be Greek and Rome is kind of silly. While I can see a Rome world being different from Greek world I feel they'd simply overlap a bit too much without some other major draw.


    Please no more this.

    MaRo (and most other content creators) are already presuming that most of their audiences are idiots. Please dont encourage them.

    Greece and Rome are nothing alike, except one day a bunch of militant rapists decided that they might need some cultural values if their cartel was going to last more than a generation or three after achieving a comfortable amount of assets, so they went and conquered a country which had some and took that too.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Theros: Beyond Death Elspeth
    Quote from RSSR »
    You think Theros: Beyond Death is the name for this set?


    Sure. That lets the abbreviation be "TBD". bunny
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] - Deluxe Edition



    (P.S. I haven't played constructed paper magic since 2008. I have bought zero cards (not including fewer than 3 sealed tournaments per year) for over a decade because of WotC crap. Someone said something about holding a company's disagreeable behavior against them. That person was right, just a little misguided about what action to apply.)


    You just defeated your own argument. Extreme greed in the pursuit of short-term profits at the expense of the goodwill and trust of their own consumers is a terrible business model and is entirely indefensible no matter what angle you take. If you think it's just a nice thing for the people who want exclusive stuff it's indefensible because the price is absurdly inflated for literally no good reason aside from unadulterated greed. If you think businesses have no responsibilities aside from making profit then it's indefensible because it leads to failure.


    Um, yeah, a few things. When someone makes a multi-point statement, responding to only one of those points is generally a weak move. First, you give the impression that you could not respond to any of the others. Which means therefore, that you have to be very sure you nail the one point you make, because you've put all your rhetorical eggs into that basket.

    In this case, in order for me to have defeated my own argument, you would have to show evidence for WotC learning their lesson from me (or even people like me) having shut off my former revenue stream to them. You would have to show that their earnings dropped in response, and that they changed their behavior accordingly.

    That hasn't happened. If my Hasbro earnings report is to be believed, WotC has grown in profitability since I stopped supporting them. Not just WotC, not really any gaming company which has taken similar actions (prioritizing short term profits at the expense of long-term player stability) has suffered, and you'd be hard pressed to find any company at all which has suffered for similar actions (the half dozen or so global examples over the last century or so can be found in business-college textbooks, because that's how rare they are).

    Customer goodwill just isn't worth much long-term. We as a consumer base are diffuse, fickle yet forgiving enough that we just suck at sending corporations messages like this. Trusting us to keep paying them little bits of money over the long term just isn't as attractive to companies as getting large cash right now- come whatever may later.

    And again...that's our fault collectively. We've shown them the way they get to make the most money. Not their fault if they listen.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] - Deluxe Edition
    Quote from user-11102155 »
    guys, stop complaining please.


    You know what you wrote makes me want to start complaining instead of stop

    Complain if you like, but he's right. This is all our (customer pool at large) fault.

    The entry barrier to our fun is increasing, limiting who can have fun with us. But this is just a continuation of existing trends.

    And actually, charging large dollars for functionally identical game pieces is so much better than chase-mythics and tournament-staple buy-a-boxen. So while WotC are undeniably wh0res, you can't really blame them for it. Blame the johns.


    So the business making the decision to price-gouge it’s customers bears no responsibility? It’s all on us, even though no one here has expressed any interest and even social media seems to be 100% against this product? Why shouldn’t we hold WotC’s lack of morals or respect for their customers against them?


    Yes. Full stop.

    1) You don't have to buy this stuff....even if you play Magic. Even if you play Magic at the most competitive, highest level. There is no functional difference between this fluff and the regular versions of the cards. You can still play Magic exactly as effectively as before.

    2) If it makes you happy to play Magic with different-looking, strategically identical cards....that's all on you. Decide how much it is worth to you do to that, and if it is worth more than the price, buy. If not, quitcher bitchin'.

    3) This of course leaves aside the fact that you do not have to play paper Magic, or constructed Magic, or even Magic at all. If a corporation which has the legal obligation to be wh0res with respect to money, and without respect of much of anything else, upsets you, then don't do business with them. Posting on a message board is just not on their radar.

    4) Your reporting of "100% against this product" is ridiculous. It will sell, therefore some people aren't against it. It will sell out, just like the other similar products before it. That is the evidence that I use to call your statement ridiculous, as a matter of fact, not of online-flame-opinion..

    (P.S. I haven't played constructed paper magic since 2008. I have bought zero cards (not including fewer than 3 sealed tournaments per year) for over a decade because of WotC crap. Someone said something about holding a company's disagreeable behavior against them. That person was right, just a little misguided about what action to apply.)
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on [ELD] - Deluxe Edition
    Quote from user-11102155 »
    guys, stop complaining please.


    You know what you wrote makes me want to start complaining instead of stop

    Complain if you like, but he's right. This is all our (customer pool at large) fault.

    The entry barrier to our fun is increasing, limiting who can have fun with us. But this is just a continuation of existing trends.

    And actually, charging large dollars for functionally identical game pieces is so much better than chase-mythics and tournament-staple buy-a-boxen. So while WotC are undeniably wh0res, you can't really blame them for it. Blame the johns.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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