As John Oliver recently pointed out (not that it's a novel concept), it's possible to be both of two things at once. Something can be ignorable and still have validity, especially if a) nothing new is being brought to the table, b) no solutions are being offered, and c) the object of the complaint is arguably subjective in nature. Seems perfectly logical to me.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Agree with point C.
Disagree with point A, but I'm not going to bother citing sources, so I'll concede arguendo there.
Point B is easily deniable. The proposed solution by the plurality of complainers is to slow down the production of products at least to the pace at which they can effectively balance/test/polish them. I don't think _anyone_ would disagree that they are publishing faster than they can polish.
Is the relationship between product scheduling and product quality causal, or correlational? If we were to offer a different type of solution, one that didn’t hinge on ‘wallet fatigue’ (the most common, and to my mind, unreasonable complaint), might it be possible to still release this many products and also have balance / polish?
—-
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Causality is difficult to demonstrate without a double-blind experiment. There is sufficient theoretical basis for presumed implied causality however. Even if it were only correlation, that implies another cause for both dependencies, i.e. something to fix.
2 cards banned in Standard between 2006 and 20016. 21 cards banned in Standard 2017 to 2020. And we're not done with 2020. That's an increase of 4100% I have a nice little graphic for that, but I grabbed it from a LGS's facebook so linkying it would be inappropriate.
I’m sure evolving ban / restriction philosophies have nothing to do with any of that. Is there another metric for “too many sets = bad” apart from rate of card suspension?
Sure, it would be possible to release sets faster and still have polish. The business answer to that is easy: throw more money at the problem. Larger staff, more training, better version control procedures, etc. Let me know when you see Hasbro double the size of the WotC team, wont you?
Sure! Let me know when you see Hasbro capitulate to the whims of some random forum-goers whining about wallet fatigue, will you?
—-
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Here I thought we were having fun and you go with this stuff? SMH.
Has this ever happened before with a Magic card art? Reusing the art on a different card is a bad idea, unless they have no intention of printing Lord of Extinction's Amonkhet version in paper.
Fun trivia time, yes it has! Snow-Covered Island was also reprinted in CSP with new art, just for bonus confusion. Kinda wish I knew what happened there.
All the Ice Age lands were reprinted. This is more of putting the new frame on them than anything else
So... if the object of the complaints makes the same mistakes repeatedly, and the complainers complain about it repeatedly, so that "you get it already", then that complaint becomes ignorable and invalid?
Just wanted to make sure I followed that illogic train...
As John Oliver recently pointed out (not that it's a novel concept), it's possible to be both of two things at once. Something can be ignorable and still have validity, especially if a) nothing new is being brought to the table, b) no solutions are being offered, and c) the object of the complaint is arguably subjective in nature. Seems perfectly logical to me.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Agree with point C.
Disagree with point A, but I'm not going to bother citing sources, so I'll concede arguendo there.
Point B is easily deniable. The proposed solution by the plurality of complainers is to slow down the production of products at least to the pace at which they can effectively balance/test/polish them. I don't think _anyone_ would disagree that they are publishing faster than they can polish.
Is the relationship between product scheduling and product quality causal, or correlational? If we were to offer a different type of solution, one that didn’t hinge on ‘wallet fatigue’ (the most common, and to my mind, unreasonable complaint), might it be possible to still release this many products and also have balance / polish?
—-
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Causality is difficult to demonstrate without a double-blind experiment. There is sufficient theoretical basis for presumed implied causality however. Even if it were only correlation, that implies another cause for both dependencies, i.e. something to fix.
2 cards banned in Standard between 2006 and 20016. 21 cards banned in Standard 2017 to 2020. And we're not done with 2020. That's an increase of 4100% I have a nice little graphic for that, but I grabbed it from a LGS's facebook so linkying it would be inappropriate.
Sure, it would be possible to release sets faster and still have polish. The business answer to that is easy: throw more money at the problem. Larger staff, more training, better version control procedures, etc. Let me know when you see Hasbro double the size of the WotC team, wont you?
So... if the object of the complaints makes the same mistakes repeatedly, and the complainers complain about it repeatedly, so that "you get it already", then that complaint becomes ignorable and invalid?
Just wanted to make sure I followed that illogic train...
As John Oliver recently pointed out (not that it's a novel concept), it's possible to be both of two things at once. Something can be ignorable and still have validity, especially if a) nothing new is being brought to the table, b) no solutions are being offered, and c) the object of the complaint is arguably subjective in nature. Seems perfectly logical to me.
---
#BLM
#DefundThePolice
Agree with point C.
Disagree with point A, but I'm not going to bother citing sources, so I'll concede arguendo there.
Point B is easily deniable. The proposed solution by the plurality of complainers is to slow down the production of products at least to the pace at which they can effectively balance/test/polish them. I don't think _anyone_ would disagree that they are publishing faster than they can polish.
Talk about wallet fatigue, product fatigue, and the never-ending hype train all you want.
If Gavin previews a fetch reprint, I’ll lead the parade through the streets.
Even if the fetchlands were the only things in the common slot, people here would still complain about how much of a rip-off the product is. These forums are a paradoxical mix of broke Commander players and friends of mtgfinance. There is no winning.
sadly that is correct
no matter how good reprints/cards and the set is this is exactly what will happen heck I even know they were complaining it was too weak before dominaria revist but you can't win now they complaining they are too powerful
also, I should point out and apologizes and no offense to some but I'm certain that some of the users complaining is intentional just for attention or/and to rile up people
you guys really do try to go a long way toward discrediting and ignoring any dissent when it comes to products.
its okay to be critical of these products, in fact a lot of the time its the only thing we really can do about them.
there have been plenty of sets that felt balanced. that felt like we were getting interesting, or powerful cards, in a decent mix with less interesting and less powerful cards. those sets felt fair and they felt like they were worth our time as well as our money. its easy to take complaints over a pushed card, or complaints over extremely weak cards and label it as the fault of the entire set. what's actually being criticized is the design, and in most case it isn't the person criticizing the design of a card that's criticizing the entire set but the people who see that complaint and throw up their hands saying no one will ever be happy. totally ignoring what people are actually unhappy about to fit their own narrative.
this set isn't even out yet. there are no spoilers yet. a few of you have already created this narrative that people are unhappy with the entire set for power reasons and reprints.
you've ignored what the complaint really is.
it has nothing to do with the power or lack of power with the set. it has nothing to do with the reprints here. we have no idea what those are. no one has said anything about those aspects of the set other than the few of you who are griping that people won't ever be happy.
the complaints levied so far are solely oriented around wallet fatigue and product bombardment. that's it. that's the complaint people have right now.
that's a legitimate concern. those voices should not be silenced by putting their criticisms under something they aren't even complaining about that you've instead manufactured yourself in this false narrative.
step back and think about the community you're creating because those kinds of attitudes go along way toward making actual discussion meaningless for many, and that in turn does make people walk away.
Criticism becomes pretty easy to ignore when it eventually turns from constructive to repetitive. It serves no one's best interest to to be a broken record on the subject, especially if it's coming from the same people every time. Trust me, we get it already.
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#BLM
#DefundThePolice
So... if the object of the complaints makes the same mistakes repeatedly, and the complainers complain about it repeatedly, so that "you get it already", then that complaint becomes ignorable and invalid?
Just wanted to make sure I followed that illogic train...
so basically what everyone wants is Secret Lair: Amonkhet Additions?
That Thoughtseize is really cool looking.
We want them printed. No one wants secret lairs. Unless they’re fairly and reasonable priced then miss me with that
Actually going off subject a little
There hasn’t been anymore secret lairs since summer drops did you guys won on telling them to stop those?
They just dont want to get too far ahead of their supply chain. They stacking up short-term liabilities for themselves by selling something and not delivering it. Accounting and legal departments hate do deal with those, so they're clearing the COVID-delay pipe a bit before starting up again.
If I am reading this right, it is number 262 out of 280. Does that check out? I'd expect there to be a fair number of lands in the set, but there should be 15 basics after this, leaving room for only 3 more lands that come after "Crawling."
There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface
Consuming, confusing
This lack of self control I fear is never ending
Controlling
I can't seem
To find myself again
My walls are closing in
(Without a sense of confidence I'm convinced
That there's just too much pressure to take)
I've felt this way before
So insecure
Crawling in my skin
These wounds, they will not heal
Fear is how I fall
Confusing what is real
I don't understand why they bring back only a subset of cards. The Amonkhet cards were in the beta. The code is still there. (I mean, even if it isn't or the code architecture has changed since. As soon as you program in the block mechanics, which they do, then the rest is a nobrainer...)
I really don't understand this move of purposefully expluding cards you already have from the game. Arena was supposed to retroactively add more and more sets going backwards, over time...
At least that's what I hoped they'd do.
+1 for "expluding".
They're doing it for balance reasons. Which they suck at recently. So, they've got that goin' for them. Which is nice.
if they're going to keep improving threats, then they need to bring better answers or else we'll keep having extensive ban lists every time.
It looks like Wizard's recent design philosophy is to make bigger threats, so players simply compete on landing bigger threats, rather than using lower-costing answers to take care of those threats.
Wizards keeps citing their player satisfaction surveys where new players don't like their threats being countered or neutralized before they can use it. So, really good answers are unlikely to be made for Standard. The better creature removals recently seem to be in black. (Cast Down, Heartless Act)
They might scale back on the power creep for creatures, but removal will probably remain not as quick or efficient in Standard.
Which has been the biggest problem plaguing Standard for a long time now. The game is far healthier and more vibrant when threats and answers are roughly equal. When threats far outstrip answers, you are left with a shallow game of who can ramp and draw into their threat faster.
I don't know if Wizards will ever find the balance needed.
Make the answers too good, and nobody wants to play expensive threats. It really depends on how they design Standard. Players won't readily commit to a 6+ mana big monster only to have it taken down by 2-mana removal. It seems Wizards compensates for that scenario by adding ETB or on cast abilities to make those creatures worthwhile to play. Then, you end up with creatures that Mystic_X said previously are "use or lose" in Standard.
the solution would be increase interaction....
print more cards to protect the bombs... stuff like Mother of Runes, Lightning Greaves or similar that is able to protect creautes for a long time....
and better removal.... bring back Lightning Bolt, stop printing removal weaker than Murder, stop printing Cancel and bring back the real Mana Leak....
if you're going to print Uro and 3 mana Teferi, you need to make removal good enough to make the meta bearable.
This.
And ETB stuff is fine, it't the "when you cast" stuff that isn't. As in if you counterspell their hydroid krassis, they still get the cards and life. If you still think ETB is too good (maybe a particular ETB on a particular card, then delay it "at the first end step after this comes into play, if this is still in play do this".
This is also why Adventure needs to have become evergreen a year ago.. If you're deckbuilding and weighing packing more threats or more responses, then it's very nice to have both on one card. Only one half really needs to be worth playing, the other half exists if the situation calls for it. Completely increases interactivity- more back and forth and strategic choices.
Similarly, I'm tired of constantly being teased by the designers and manufacturer with cards which I suspected from the beginning were "too good to be true" (ie: deathrite shaman) but assume are thoroughly tested before they're sold, only to purchase or trade into foil playsets, and then watch their value disappear because the have-nots decide they no longer want such game pieces in the playing environment and complain about my game pieces which were rightfully presented as legitimate to use in sanctioned play and sold under that pretense to me and everyone else who wanted them.
Holy run on sentence, Batman! (I think I agree with you...but I'm only 89.2% sure...)
The most baffling thing about this is why ANYONE still plays Standard or Pioneer. People whine about Modern bans, and they do suck, and Wizards SHOULD be yelled at for some of them, but unless I am missing something, they have banned moe cards from STANDARD in the last 12 months than in any 12 month period in Modern with the exception of only the initial announcement of the format. The same goes for Pioneer, also excluding the initial announcement. Buying into the two most hyped and supported formats in the last year is just lighting money on fire in a way Modern has NEVER been.
i enjoy playing standard more than modern. i like the constant shift, the automatical force to rethink or change a deck. its a very dynamic format. and to be honest i really liked the old standard showdown booster, which were a really nice addon to these tournaments. sadly wizards even had to ruin those...
and standard usually is a more interactive format than modern or pioneer, where so many decks simply ignore the opponent and just focus on their combo / win con
i know people dont like change, i know standard in long term can be more expensive than modern (but hell, magic as a whole is), but it is my hobby and i am willing to pay for the fun. to me standard used to be a really good format (not just because it sells products for wizards)
This. And there are ten very large reasons not to play in Modern unless you're an old timer who has never sold their collection.
before dominaria revist you guys were complaining the sets were too weak but now you guys are complaining They too powerful what is happening here.
Are they actually the same people complaining in both circumstances or is it just whichever side is currently unhappy is the one talking? I believe I have consistently been arguing for somewhat lower power level, definitely fewer bombs and against planeswalkers for a while. I havent seen the same posters on both sides of any of those fences. If you have, please elucidate.
This is how a ban list should be used. Not just as an emergency fix for obviously broken formats but as a healthy booster for when formats stagnate or as basic quality of play improvements.
I disagree, new sets and rotation should be the only needed cure for stagnation. This was an obviously broken format and some of these bannings are a year overdue.
(Beat you to it, Mods!)
I was responding directly to the points you raised. Then you started shotgunning with facetious nonsequiturs and a strawman or two.
I had thought better of you.
Here I thought we were having fun and you go with this stuff? SMH.
All the Ice Age lands were reprinted. This is more of putting the new frame on them than anything else
Causality is difficult to demonstrate without a double-blind experiment. There is sufficient theoretical basis for presumed implied causality however. Even if it were only correlation, that implies another cause for both dependencies, i.e. something to fix.
2 cards banned in Standard between 2006 and 20016. 21 cards banned in Standard 2017 to 2020. And we're not done with 2020. That's an increase of 4100% I have a nice little graphic for that, but I grabbed it from a LGS's facebook so linkying it would be inappropriate.
Sure, it would be possible to release sets faster and still have polish. The business answer to that is easy: throw more money at the problem. Larger staff, more training, better version control procedures, etc. Let me know when you see Hasbro double the size of the WotC team, wont you?
Agree with point C.
Disagree with point A, but I'm not going to bother citing sources, so I'll concede arguendo there.
Point B is easily deniable. The proposed solution by the plurality of complainers is to slow down the production of products at least to the pace at which they can effectively balance/test/polish them. I don't think _anyone_ would disagree that they are publishing faster than they can polish.
So... if the object of the complaints makes the same mistakes repeatedly, and the complainers complain about it repeatedly, so that "you get it already", then that complaint becomes ignorable and invalid?
Just wanted to make sure I followed that illogic train...
They just dont want to get too far ahead of their supply chain. They stacking up short-term liabilities for themselves by selling something and not delivering it. Accounting and legal departments hate do deal with those, so they're clearing the COVID-delay pipe a bit before starting up again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd9OhYroLN0
There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface
Consuming, confusing
This lack of self control I fear is never ending
Controlling
I can't seem
To find myself again
My walls are closing in
(Without a sense of confidence I'm convinced
That there's just too much pressure to take)
I've felt this way before
So insecure
Crawling in my skin
These wounds, they will not heal
Fear is how I fall
Confusing what is real
(I think I'm still sleepy, sorry)
+1 for "expluding".
They're doing it for balance reasons. Which they suck at recently. So, they've got that goin' for them. Which is nice.
This.
And ETB stuff is fine, it't the "when you cast" stuff that isn't. As in if you counterspell their hydroid krassis, they still get the cards and life. If you still think ETB is too good (maybe a particular ETB on a particular card, then delay it "at the first end step after this comes into play, if this is still in play do this".
This is also why Adventure needs to have become evergreen a year ago.. If you're deckbuilding and weighing packing more threats or more responses, then it's very nice to have both on one card. Only one half really needs to be worth playing, the other half exists if the situation calls for it. Completely increases interactivity- more back and forth and strategic choices.
Holy run on sentence, Batman! (I think I agree with you...but I'm only 89.2% sure...)
I am the tentacle that flaps in the night!
This. And there are ten very large reasons not to play in Modern unless you're an old timer who has never sold their collection.
Are they actually the same people complaining in both circumstances or is it just whichever side is currently unhappy is the one talking? I believe I have consistently been arguing for somewhat lower power level, definitely fewer bombs and against planeswalkers for a while. I havent seen the same posters on both sides of any of those fences. If you have, please elucidate.
I disagree, new sets and rotation should be the only needed cure for stagnation. This was an obviously broken format and some of these bannings are a year overdue.