I continue to think that Werewolves would be better in a turbo fog deck. There’s not enough good Werewolves to support a Vial deck in Modern. Been there, done that, didn’t work.
Howlpack Resurgence could replace Full Moon’s Rise in my above list, to have something more to do on turn 3 at instant speed. If we play Scorned Villager or Duskwatch Recruiter on turn 2 and pass the turn on T3, and they flip, we can cast the new Nightpack Ambusher during opponent’s turn (or Resurgence, or any Fog, etc.).
Werewolves need to survive to get to the long game, where they’ll get value each turn with Mayor, Ambusher and Huntmaster. Best way to do that is either turbo fog (a natural decision, considering Moonmist), or hand disruption (going Jund for Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek).
If we don’t do that, we’ll lose each and every game against Aggro and Combo, since both are faster than us.
Also, about Striking vs Eldrazi Tron... I guess the situation was not appropriate in your case, but I recall winning against that deck by grouping blockers with First Strike on 5/5 Smashers (3-5 Slivers needed, without Lords).
And I guess you didn’t have Diffusion/Mariner on the board to tax Ballista/Collar. Sometimes, slowing down opponent is just enough... particularly on the play if we can get to game 3 (which we should if winning game 1 is a constant).
For those of you who like numbers, I’ve run 100.000 simulations of two different decks, just to test keepable hands : my deck with 4 Virulents and 16 lands, and another with 2 Automaton and 2 Ziggurats instead. Surprisingly, the deck with 16 lands and more Weenies was more keepable than the one with 18 lands, and by a wide margin... 78% vs 63%, if I recall correctly.
I’ll post the numbers and methodology eventually, if anyone is interested. But basically, all one landers with Ziggurat and Vial, or two landers with double Ziggurats and Vial, are unkeepable most of the time. Ziggurat + Mutavault is keepable, but sometimes awkward if you don’t draw more land to activate the manland. Finally, because the deck with 4 Virulents has 50% more one-drops, it is a lot more appealing keeping a one-lander with or without Vial. As long as you can play a Sliver per turn for 2-3 turns, you should be fine until you topdeck 2nd Land. One-landers with a single one-drop are unkeepable, so a deck with 50% more one-drops is 50% more likely to have a keepable one-lander.
Finally, 3-drops Automatons are awkward to keep in multiples if you hit too few or too many lands. Not enough mana and you can’t cast it (one is fine to keep, but double Automatons is hard), and too many lands makes it easy to cast but not many other Slivers to support it (and quite slow, while I prefer to play 4-5 Slivers in the first 3 turns).
Conclusion : with such a wide margin (78% vs 63%), science tells me we’re better with 16 lands and 12 one-drops (and thus no CoCo).
Edit : Virulent makes it possible to continue our aggression while loading up on Diffusion and Mariner. Sometimes, after one such Disruptor has been played, we move on with our Lords, exposing ourselves to removals. But a swarm of Virulent and multiple Disruptors (with flying) is a lot more hard to deal with for opponent, and will get you a win as good as if you played a Lord (10 hits is enough, which can be achieved in 1-2 turns, depending on if Virulent is in multiples or not).
You have Virulent all wrong. Poisonous isn’t Infect. It’s a triggered ability that says « when this creature deals combat damage to opponent, he also gets a poison counter ». So normal damage IS NOT replaced by poison, which allows me to pursue the 2 game plans at the same time. If opponent deals with the immediate threat of Poisonous (it stacks in multiples), I can still threaten lethal next turn with all the damage dealt. It really acts as an extra Lord in the deck, and I really don’t think Sidewinder is a good replacement.
1-2 vs Mono Black Devotion
Game 1, easy win. Game 2, opponent disrupted my hand twice, robbing me of Galerider and Cloudshredder. When finally I could unload 3 Slivers on the battlefield, opponent casted Force of Despair for free, EOT. Then, opponent chained Nyktos into Nyktos, pooling insane amount of mana, to play Obliterator and Gary for lethal.
Game 3, I kept a hand with 3 lands, Vial and 3 creatures. But I didn’t played Magic at all. Hand disruption and removal took care of 2 of my 3 Slivers, and I topdecked 5 lands consecutively, from T2 to T6. The only non land card was Striking Sliver on T7. Two tokens from the Hive only helped delaying the inevitable. Really? 8 lands and 1 Vial out of 13 cards, and only 4 creatures in a deck that plays 40 and 16 lands? I was extremely pissed and frustrated going into the next matchup.
2-1 vs Goblins (Midrange version)
Game 1 on easy mode with Sinew and Leeching. Game 2 was over quickly after opponent played two Chainwhirlers, on turn 3 on 5 for maximum value each time (and I had no Lords).
Game 3 was a good game. I pressured him with 2 Virulent, and made a mistake by just attacking with 4/4 Mariner on board of 3 Goblins 1/1. I could also have attacked with Predatory (3/3) and Virulent (3/3), but I was afraid he would have gang blocked Predatory or Virulent. Had he done that, I could have threatened lethal next turn with Poison (still had another Virulent on board). Game got a bit longer because of that (Virulents got removed), but I eventually managed to win with Leeching and Cloudshredder.
1-2 vs Jund Death Shadow
Again, game 1 is easy win. I lost game 2 purely because of mana flood (again). And I was about to win game 3 (I had lethal next turn)... but I didn’t block the two 3/4 Goyfs that were attacking my 11 life. I was expecting Temur Battle Rage, but opponent couldn’t Bolt me for lethal, thanks to 2 Mariners. I didn’t know, but it seems Become Immense is a card this version plays (opponent never played it in games 1-2). Well, GG.
2-0 vs Faeries
As always, game 1 = easy victory. Game 2, I slowly built up my army (no Lords to make attacking possible against a deck that plays Flash creatures), and Sliver Hive got me 2 tokens while I was stalling (TY, Manaweft). Eventually, double Leeching with wide board did the job.
In the end :
I’ve lost to super-duper-extreme variance against Mono Black Devotion (still salty about topdecking 5 lands in 5 turns).
Gaddock Teeg is awesome... in a deck that can cast it on turn 2. Slivers can’t do that without a steep cost in our development.
Mulligans or mana short never was a problem in the 11 games played (in a deck with 16 lands).
I learned about Become Immense in the Jund Shadow Matchup.
Virulent Sliver is better on the play, when super agression is rewarded. I used to side out Leeching on game 2 in most matchups, but I probably would have been better every time with it, instead of Virulent. Maybe I could have won against Jund Shadow on game 2 or 3.
The main deck is perfect as it is. I wish hate cards (graveyard, Tron and creatures Combo) wouldn’t take that much slots in the SB, or I would have a transformational SB. On the draw, we have to play more defensive and reactive. Since we don’t have much tools to interact, I would load up on Syphon and Sentinel (we can attack if we have a cushion of life, or blockers), and Dregscape to get value back from the Slivers opponent removed or discarded post SB (face it, they’ll go heavy on removals and sweepers).
Thus, I think we should try to find SB cards that are universally good in all the problematic matchups. What about Sorcerous Spyglass? It can certainly help against Tron (naming Ballista, Karn, Ugin, O-Stone), Bridgevine (naming Carrion Feeder or Altar), UW Control (naming Jace or Teferi) and even creatures Combo like Copy Cat (name Saheeli), CoCo Vizier (naming Devoted Druid), Kiki-Jiki (name it), Elves (naming Ezuri), etc.
Anyone has a better idea? I really think Slivers should have a hyper aggressive main deck, and a transformational SB to change our play style for when we’re on the draw.
Your list looks a lot like mine... but why do you play that Forest? Fetching to Field of Ruin or Path to Exile is not as much important as overloading opponent’s ressources with threats, and getting the critical mass of Slivers to win. May I suggest you to try out my most recent list? That includes Virulent Sliver (not for Infect, but additional cheap body and removal magnet) and down to 16 lands (avoid 3cmc).
Gaddock Teeg against Tron would have prevented opponent from playing Karn and Skysovereign. You can use Vial, Mana Confluence (that I prefer over some Ziggurats) to cast it, or name its creature type with Cavern or Territory. Comes to worst, mana dorks will do the job (one of the reason they should stay).
Against Eldrazi Tron, I say it’s an even matchup, if you get Striking Sliver to stall. First Strike on a horde does that. To break the stall, mana dorks + Sliver Hive are amazing (again, keep them on your list). You’ll attack once, with lethal, while preventing opponent from attacking without sacrificing creatures to you better blockers.
I’m glad someone took the courage to try out a golden lands manabase, away from Sedge Sliver and CoCo.
Against Bridgevine, have you tried Yixlid Jailer and/or Grafdigger’s Cage? A lot cheaper than Surgical Extraction, and they usually do the job.
I tested this list a bit, and I was impressed with the two new techs : Virulent Sliver and down to 16 lands. BTW, Leeching Sliver is back in my deck. Now, before anyone tells my I’m crazy at 16 lands, please bear with me...
Virulent Sliver makes turn 3 wins more feasible than before (twice, with Cloudshredder and another Sliver). But not only that, the deck is a lot more aggressive with such a low curve. More one-drops means that turn 1 is almost never a lost turn, and Vial on 1 (turn 2) is not wasted as often as before. It’s also easier to chain Slivers with Manaweft and Cloudshredder, or to play 2-3 Slivers per turn on just lands. Poisonous will rarely win a game, but Virulent adds an extra body for a very low cost. And this is what wins us games.
Sometimes, Virulent will take the role of a mini-Lord with this text box : « Opponents can’t gain life, and their life total is set to 10. Each Sliver now only deals 1 damage per Virulent Sliver on the battlefield, regardless of power. » Getting to 10 isn’t that hard with such a wide board. For now, I love it.
I added back the 4 Leeching Sliver, so my list now has 16 Lords (Sinew, Predatory, Leeching and Virulent).
Playing only 16 lands (all of which can cast Vial on turn 1, no Ziggurat) seems feasible with such a low curve. Compared to 18 lands and 8 one-drops :
Odds of 1+ land in 7 cards : down to 90% (was 93%).
Odds of 2+ land in 7 cards : down to 61% (was 69%).
Odds of 1+ one-drop (excluding Vial) in 7 cards : up to 81% (was 65%).
Odds of 2+ one-drop (excluding Vial) in 7 cards : up to 43% (was 23%).
Odds of 1+ land in the next top 2 cards if I keep a one-lander : 49%.
Odds of 1+ land in the next top 3 cards if I keep a one-lander : 64%.
London Mulligan will favor such an aggressive deck list, to sculpt a keepable opening hand of 6 cards. Speaking of which, depending if you’re on the play or draw, it may be a good idea to simply focus on keeping hands that can play a spell per turn for 2-3 rounds.
It may now be easier to overload Control and Midrange’s removals (more cards, casted earlier and faster).
Edit : Gut Shot replaces Dismember in the SB. It can kill creatures-based Combo decks just as well, without having to take a break in our development.
I'm going to stick with my CoCo version of Slivers along with Blasphemous Act - Spiteful Sliver "combo", even without Blasphemous Act, the ability of Spiteful stacks if we have multiple of them in the battlefield.
I think that Horizon lands can help a bit drawing an extra card (mostly a creature) to add a bit more pressure to the opponent. With mana generator slivers, it should not punish us that much, as we can generate tons of it.
Have you done the maths of your manabase while building it? Deck building and playing Magic is *all* about statistics and probabilities. Good decks are reliable, and will do their thing with a high measure of consistency, and on time. Read Frank Karsten’s article if you haven’t done so, yet. Skip the explanations, and go directly to « The Numbers ».
Including your 4 Manaweft (that count as half a colored source each, because removals and hand disruption), you only have 6 sources of G and 5 sources of R to cast CoCo and BlAc, out of 22 sources of mana (20 lands + 4 x 0.5 for Manaweft). These numbers are insanely low, and the odds of success are abysmal :
54% chance of having 4 sources of mana by turn 4 (ex: 3 lands + manaweft).
Multiply by 68% : chance of having at least one source of G by turn 4.
Result is 37% of both having 4 sources of mana by turn 4, at least one of which is G.
Same logic for R : odds are 33%.
You many think 35% are good odds of winning the lottery, be my guest, and go for it. But if you play with these odds in any events (not kitchen table), you’ll soon realize that your opponents’ decks are WAAAAYYYY more consistent than yours. Good deck building aims at 90% odds, what is considered a good measure of « consistency ». Over 20 games (5 rounds + top 8), yours will fail to do it’s thing, on time (curve is so important in Magic), more than half the time (13 games). The better decks will only fail twice (2 games out of 20)... which is ***550%*** less than your 13 failures (the spread between 2 and 13 is +11, or 550%).
You should build a manabase that supports at least 11 sources of G and R. See Frank’s first Chart, 60 cards by Turn 4 = 11 sources. Each land counts for 1 source, and each mana dork counts for half a source. If you keep the dorks at 4, it means you need 5 more sources that can produce pure green mana, and 6 more that can tap for red. Maybe you can work a miracle, but I doubt any deck could support that without forcing you away for one or two colors (Naya, probably).
FYI, CoCo Vizier decks usually play 21 lands (17-19 tap for G) and with 8 mana dorks (so 25 sources, at least 21 can pool green mana). Such decks avoid 5 colors, and will only splash the 4th color if need be. CoCo Vizier is dedicated in it’s mission to not fail at casting CoCo as soon as turn 3, no later than turn 4. Your manabase looks like it will only reliably cast CoCo after turn 10 (unless you’re lucky).
I preferred 2 Mana Confluence over Ziggurat. This halves the odds of unkeepable one-landers with Aether Vial (or with Ziggurats only), and makes it easier to activate Silver Hive. Tapping for mana costs 1 life, but I think we’ll lose less games with it, if only to avoid Mulligans. And with less than 1 card in 3 being a land, for each Ziggurat that we draw, we need on average 3 more cards to find a land that can at least tap for colorless. In many cases, this is 6+ turns, which is enough to lose. This change feels positive.
I, however, screwed up on my flex spots and SB, losing 0-2 vs Esper Control (featuring Monastery Mentor), and 0-2 vs Saheeli Felidar Combo. It had all started so well against a Naya Control deck (Nahiri + Emrakul), winning 2-0. What went wrong?
I think I was really unlucky both matchups, being on the draw in both cases and having to Mulligan down to 6 for barely hands.
Turn 2 Diffusion + another one turn 3 was a great way to protect the tribe vs removals against Naya. But I never saw them vs Esper Mentor and Saheeli Felidar. It may be super important to have one in the opening hand in these kind of matchups. Note to self : Mulligan if need be, it’s as important as graveyard hate vs Dredge and Phoenix.
Path to Exile, Settle the Wreckage, Terminus and Anger of the Gods : they all don’t care about Athreos (but it easily deals 9-12 damage in other kind of Midrange/Control decks).
Whithout Leeching, fast wins on game 1 was a lot harder.
Sentinel is very conditional : meh alone (but 2/2 is nice), better with Manaweft and Striking Slivers (we should otherwise almost never block, because we need a critical mass next turn).
Lifelink is generally more useful and less conditional than Vigilance (evasion helps to effectively drain life, but we have 8 Slivers for that). It gives a great buffer to soak damage while staying aggressive.
Plague Engineer, naming Cat, was only good delaying the Felidar combo half a turn. Path or Bolt on it, then opponent proceeded as normal.
Deputy of Detention is a very bad way of dealing with the Felidar Combo. Not fast enough.
Next steps : revamped flex slots, with 3-4 Leeching and 2-3 Syphon/Automaton (probably Automaton, to win faster), and review SB.
Jailer/Cage and Teeg/Ouphe are all awesome against Bridgevine and Tron. Jailer is also randomly good against Ux Control (Snap and Teferi’s flashback), Arclight Phoenix, Classic Dredge, Hollow One, etc. Cage prevents CoCo and Neoform can’t Combo with this on the board. Teeg is good vs sweepers, Cryptic Command, PWs, Entreat the Angels, CoCo, etc. And Ouphe isn’t pointless vs Affinity and artifacts based Combo decks, like Paradoxial Urza. These 8 cards HAVE to stay.
There’s 7 slots left in the SB, but so much to do. Here’s a quick list of the matchups that require help from SB :
Midrange with recurring removals (that can overload us with flashback, Grim Lavamancer or Molten Vortex).
Prison decks, with Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon.
Frankly, I’m almost tempted to put Meddling Mage (or something that does the same) in the SB, to deal with both Creatures Combo and Prison decks. But the manabase is probably not very friendly to Mage. Thus, I doubt that we can divert our attention to all these 3 archetypes. We should focus on 2, and hope to have good post SB games against them. I would thus ignore Prison, because if feels natural losing to it, no matter what (Blood Moon turn 1? GG).
Instant speed removals can deal with Creatures Combo, and other Aggro decks. That’s something to look at. And Athreos + Frenetic Sliver is a nice combo that can disrupt removals and sweepers that send our creatures anywhere but the GY. I know Frenetic’s ability is random. But against Control, it’s pseudo card advantage, the equivalent of flipping the top deck of a 30 Creatures deck and casting it for free every time opponent tries something nasty. Maybe even without Athreos... I don’t know.
Right. Last list had 2 Leeching and 2 Automaton. I think I may have said somewhere that Automaton was replaced with full playset of Leeching. Because it only costs 2 and is easier to manage with Vial.
I really am thorned here. Leeching makes a lot of sense for a fast win on game 1. More than 3 Syphon and an extra Sentinel. There are hard matchups, however, where these are needed. And considering how some Midrange matchups are also a pain, I’m considering Athreos in the main deck...
In competitive Modern, the best you can hope for is to have as many favorable matchups as you can. Every decks have their nemesis to which they’ll lose most of the time. Humans are Tier 1, and they don’t run their manabase for the occasional SB cards they might need. Dismember, Yixlid Jailer, Grafdigger’s Cage, Ravenous Trap... they can all do what you say, and are castable on a golden manabase.
That way, I get better games against Creatures Combo decks, as gaining life and keeping blockers can win such games.
Collector Ouphe has replaced Harmonic Sliver in the SB. With Syphon now in the main deck, I’ve replaced it with 2 Leeching for a more aggressive game 2 or 3 while on the play. But I’m seriously considering Plage Engineer instead, to fight Elves, Goblins and Humans. Naming Human, it can also be good against CoCo Combo, to kill Vizier and totally prevent the combo.
I’ve found out that Temur Midrange/Control, with Bloodmoon or Molten Vortex [along with Loam) is a pretty hard matchup. I don’t know what card would help there. I didn’t draw Athreos both games, but I think it would have been good... other ideas?
It shuts down Expedition Map, Chromatic Star/Sphere, Walking Ballista and Oblivion Stone. That’s a lot of application for one card, and you’re not just spot removing a single artifact.
Damping Sphere is the right card vs Amulet Titan. Knight of Autumn can destroy an Amulet *if* you play Hierarch on turn 1 or you’re on the play, *and* opponent doesn’t play a 2nd Amulet. Otherwise, it is too slow to break the Combo. Cross your fingers, and hope for Meddling Mage to do the job for you.
Howlpack Resurgence could replace Full Moon’s Rise in my above list, to have something more to do on turn 3 at instant speed. If we play Scorned Villager or Duskwatch Recruiter on turn 2 and pass the turn on T3, and they flip, we can cast the new Nightpack Ambusher during opponent’s turn (or Resurgence, or any Fog, etc.).
Werewolves need to survive to get to the long game, where they’ll get value each turn with Mayor, Ambusher and Huntmaster. Best way to do that is either turbo fog (a natural decision, considering Moonmist), or hand disruption (going Jund for Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek).
If we don’t do that, we’ll lose each and every game against Aggro and Combo, since both are faster than us.
And I guess you didn’t have Diffusion/Mariner on the board to tax Ballista/Collar. Sometimes, slowing down opponent is just enough... particularly on the play if we can get to game 3 (which we should if winning game 1 is a constant).
For those of you who like numbers, I’ve run 100.000 simulations of two different decks, just to test keepable hands : my deck with 4 Virulents and 16 lands, and another with 2 Automaton and 2 Ziggurats instead. Surprisingly, the deck with 16 lands and more Weenies was more keepable than the one with 18 lands, and by a wide margin... 78% vs 63%, if I recall correctly.
I’ll post the numbers and methodology eventually, if anyone is interested. But basically, all one landers with Ziggurat and Vial, or two landers with double Ziggurats and Vial, are unkeepable most of the time. Ziggurat + Mutavault is keepable, but sometimes awkward if you don’t draw more land to activate the manland. Finally, because the deck with 4 Virulents has 50% more one-drops, it is a lot more appealing keeping a one-lander with or without Vial. As long as you can play a Sliver per turn for 2-3 turns, you should be fine until you topdeck 2nd Land. One-landers with a single one-drop are unkeepable, so a deck with 50% more one-drops is 50% more likely to have a keepable one-lander.
Finally, 3-drops Automatons are awkward to keep in multiples if you hit too few or too many lands. Not enough mana and you can’t cast it (one is fine to keep, but double Automatons is hard), and too many lands makes it easy to cast but not many other Slivers to support it (and quite slow, while I prefer to play 4-5 Slivers in the first 3 turns).
Conclusion : with such a wide margin (78% vs 63%), science tells me we’re better with 16 lands and 12 one-drops (and thus no CoCo).
Edit : Virulent makes it possible to continue our aggression while loading up on Diffusion and Mariner. Sometimes, after one such Disruptor has been played, we move on with our Lords, exposing ourselves to removals. But a swarm of Virulent and multiple Disruptors (with flying) is a lot more hard to deal with for opponent, and will get you a win as good as if you played a Lord (10 hits is enough, which can be achieved in 1-2 turns, depending on if Virulent is in multiples or not).
I played my above list tonight.
1-2 vs Mono Black Devotion
Game 1, easy win. Game 2, opponent disrupted my hand twice, robbing me of Galerider and Cloudshredder. When finally I could unload 3 Slivers on the battlefield, opponent casted Force of Despair for free, EOT. Then, opponent chained Nyktos into Nyktos, pooling insane amount of mana, to play Obliterator and Gary for lethal.
Game 3, I kept a hand with 3 lands, Vial and 3 creatures. But I didn’t played Magic at all. Hand disruption and removal took care of 2 of my 3 Slivers, and I topdecked 5 lands consecutively, from T2 to T6. The only non land card was Striking Sliver on T7. Two tokens from the Hive only helped delaying the inevitable. Really? 8 lands and 1 Vial out of 13 cards, and only 4 creatures in a deck that plays 40 and 16 lands? I was extremely pissed and frustrated going into the next matchup.
2-1 vs Goblins (Midrange version)
Game 1 on easy mode with Sinew and Leeching. Game 2 was over quickly after opponent played two Chainwhirlers, on turn 3 on 5 for maximum value each time (and I had no Lords).
Game 3 was a good game. I pressured him with 2 Virulent, and made a mistake by just attacking with 4/4 Mariner on board of 3 Goblins 1/1. I could also have attacked with Predatory (3/3) and Virulent (3/3), but I was afraid he would have gang blocked Predatory or Virulent. Had he done that, I could have threatened lethal next turn with Poison (still had another Virulent on board). Game got a bit longer because of that (Virulents got removed), but I eventually managed to win with Leeching and Cloudshredder.
1-2 vs Jund Death Shadow
Again, game 1 is easy win. I lost game 2 purely because of mana flood (again). And I was about to win game 3 (I had lethal next turn)... but I didn’t block the two 3/4 Goyfs that were attacking my 11 life. I was expecting Temur Battle Rage, but opponent couldn’t Bolt me for lethal, thanks to 2 Mariners. I didn’t know, but it seems Become Immense is a card this version plays (opponent never played it in games 1-2). Well, GG.
2-0 vs Faeries
As always, game 1 = easy victory. Game 2, I slowly built up my army (no Lords to make attacking possible against a deck that plays Flash creatures), and Sliver Hive got me 2 tokens while I was stalling (TY, Manaweft). Eventually, double Leeching with wide board did the job.
In the end :
- I’ve lost to super-duper-extreme variance against Mono Black Devotion (still salty about topdecking 5 lands in 5 turns).
- Gaddock Teeg is awesome... in a deck that can cast it on turn 2. Slivers can’t do that without a steep cost in our development.
- Mulligans or mana short never was a problem in the 11 games played (in a deck with 16 lands).
- I learned about Become Immense in the Jund Shadow Matchup.
- Virulent Sliver is better on the play, when super agression is rewarded. I used to side out Leeching on game 2 in most matchups, but I probably would have been better every time with it, instead of Virulent. Maybe I could have won against Jund Shadow on game 2 or 3.
The main deck is perfect as it is. I wish hate cards (graveyard, Tron and creatures Combo) wouldn’t take that much slots in the SB, or I would have a transformational SB. On the draw, we have to play more defensive and reactive. Since we don’t have much tools to interact, I would load up on Syphon and Sentinel (we can attack if we have a cushion of life, or blockers), and Dregscape to get value back from the Slivers opponent removed or discarded post SB (face it, they’ll go heavy on removals and sweepers).Thus, I think we should try to find SB cards that are universally good in all the problematic matchups. What about Sorcerous Spyglass? It can certainly help against Tron (naming Ballista, Karn, Ugin, O-Stone), Bridgevine (naming Carrion Feeder or Altar), UW Control (naming Jace or Teferi) and even creatures Combo like Copy Cat (name Saheeli), CoCo Vizier (naming Devoted Druid), Kiki-Jiki (name it), Elves (naming Ezuri), etc.
Anyone has a better idea? I really think Slivers should have a hyper aggressive main deck, and a transformational SB to change our play style for when we’re on the draw.
Your list looks a lot like mine... but why do you play that Forest? Fetching to Field of Ruin or Path to Exile is not as much important as overloading opponent’s ressources with threats, and getting the critical mass of Slivers to win. May I suggest you to try out my most recent list? That includes Virulent Sliver (not for Infect, but additional cheap body and removal magnet) and down to 16 lands (avoid 3cmc).
Gaddock Teeg against Tron would have prevented opponent from playing Karn and Skysovereign. You can use Vial, Mana Confluence (that I prefer over some Ziggurats) to cast it, or name its creature type with Cavern or Territory. Comes to worst, mana dorks will do the job (one of the reason they should stay).
Against Eldrazi Tron, I say it’s an even matchup, if you get Striking Sliver to stall. First Strike on a horde does that. To break the stall, mana dorks + Sliver Hive are amazing (again, keep them on your list). You’ll attack once, with lethal, while preventing opponent from attacking without sacrificing creatures to you better blockers.
I’m glad someone took the courage to try out a golden lands manabase, away from Sedge Sliver and CoCo.
Against Bridgevine, have you tried Yixlid Jailer and/or Grafdigger’s Cage? A lot cheaper than Surgical Extraction, and they usually do the job.
I’ve run some tests, and I take back what I said about Virulent Sliver. Here’s the list that I’ll run tomorrow night at LGS :
4 Aether Vial
4 Striking Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Virulent Sliver
Disruptors (8)
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Unsettled Mariner
Accelerators (8)
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Leeching Sliver
Lands (16)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Mana Confluence
2 Mutavault
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Collector Ouphe
1 Frenetic Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Necrotic Sliver
2 Gut Shot
2 Plague Engineer
I tested this list a bit, and I was impressed with the two new techs : Virulent Sliver and down to 16 lands. BTW, Leeching Sliver is back in my deck. Now, before anyone tells my I’m crazy at 16 lands, please bear with me...
Virulent Sliver makes turn 3 wins more feasible than before (twice, with Cloudshredder and another Sliver). But not only that, the deck is a lot more aggressive with such a low curve. More one-drops means that turn 1 is almost never a lost turn, and Vial on 1 (turn 2) is not wasted as often as before. It’s also easier to chain Slivers with Manaweft and Cloudshredder, or to play 2-3 Slivers per turn on just lands. Poisonous will rarely win a game, but Virulent adds an extra body for a very low cost. And this is what wins us games.
Sometimes, Virulent will take the role of a mini-Lord with this text box : « Opponents can’t gain life, and their life total is set to 10. Each Sliver now only deals 1 damage per Virulent Sliver on the battlefield, regardless of power. » Getting to 10 isn’t that hard with such a wide board. For now, I love it.
I added back the 4 Leeching Sliver, so my list now has 16 Lords (Sinew, Predatory, Leeching and Virulent).
Playing only 16 lands (all of which can cast Vial on turn 1, no Ziggurat) seems feasible with such a low curve. Compared to 18 lands and 8 one-drops :
- Odds of 1+ land in 7 cards : down to 90% (was 93%).
- Odds of 2+ land in 7 cards : down to 61% (was 69%).
- Odds of 1+ one-drop (excluding Vial) in 7 cards : up to 81% (was 65%).
- Odds of 2+ one-drop (excluding Vial) in 7 cards : up to 43% (was 23%).
- Odds of 1+ land in the next top 2 cards if I keep a one-lander : 49%.
- Odds of 1+ land in the next top 3 cards if I keep a one-lander : 64%.
London Mulligan will favor such an aggressive deck list, to sculpt a keepable opening hand of 6 cards. Speaking of which, depending if you’re on the play or draw, it may be a good idea to simply focus on keeping hands that can play a spell per turn for 2-3 rounds.It may now be easier to overload Control and Midrange’s removals (more cards, casted earlier and faster).
Edit : Gut Shot replaces Dismember in the SB. It can kill creatures-based Combo decks just as well, without having to take a break in our development.
Have you done the maths of your manabase while building it? Deck building and playing Magic is *all* about statistics and probabilities. Good decks are reliable, and will do their thing with a high measure of consistency, and on time. Read Frank Karsten’s article if you haven’t done so, yet. Skip the explanations, and go directly to « The Numbers ».
Including your 4 Manaweft (that count as half a colored source each, because removals and hand disruption), you only have 6 sources of G and 5 sources of R to cast CoCo and BlAc, out of 22 sources of mana (20 lands + 4 x 0.5 for Manaweft). These numbers are insanely low, and the odds of success are abysmal :
- 54% chance of having 4 sources of mana by turn 4 (ex: 3 lands + manaweft).
- Multiply by 68% : chance of having at least one source of G by turn 4.
- Result is 37% of both having 4 sources of mana by turn 4, at least one of which is G.
- Same logic for R : odds are 33%.
You many think 35% are good odds of winning the lottery, be my guest, and go for it. But if you play with these odds in any events (not kitchen table), you’ll soon realize that your opponents’ decks are WAAAAYYYY more consistent than yours. Good deck building aims at 90% odds, what is considered a good measure of « consistency ». Over 20 games (5 rounds + top 8), yours will fail to do it’s thing, on time (curve is so important in Magic), more than half the time (13 games). The better decks will only fail twice (2 games out of 20)... which is ***550%*** less than your 13 failures (the spread between 2 and 13 is +11, or 550%).You should build a manabase that supports at least 11 sources of G and R. See Frank’s first Chart, 60 cards by Turn 4 = 11 sources. Each land counts for 1 source, and each mana dork counts for half a source. If you keep the dorks at 4, it means you need 5 more sources that can produce pure green mana, and 6 more that can tap for red. Maybe you can work a miracle, but I doubt any deck could support that without forcing you away for one or two colors (Naya, probably).
FYI, CoCo Vizier decks usually play 21 lands (17-19 tap for G) and with 8 mana dorks (so 25 sources, at least 21 can pool green mana). Such decks avoid 5 colors, and will only splash the 4th color if need be. CoCo Vizier is dedicated in it’s mission to not fail at casting CoCo as soon as turn 3, no later than turn 4. Your manabase looks like it will only reliably cast CoCo after turn 10 (unless you’re lucky).
4 Aether Vial
4 Striking Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
Disruptors (8)
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Unsettled Mariner
Accelerators (8)
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
Lords (8)
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Sentinel Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Athreos, God of Passage
Lands (18)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Mana Confluence
2 Mutavault
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Collector Ouphe
3 Deputy of Detention
1 Plague Engineer
3 Damping Sphere
I preferred 2 Mana Confluence over Ziggurat. This halves the odds of unkeepable one-landers with Aether Vial (or with Ziggurats only), and makes it easier to activate Silver Hive. Tapping for mana costs 1 life, but I think we’ll lose less games with it, if only to avoid Mulligans. And with less than 1 card in 3 being a land, for each Ziggurat that we draw, we need on average 3 more cards to find a land that can at least tap for colorless. In many cases, this is 6+ turns, which is enough to lose. This change feels positive.
I, however, screwed up on my flex spots and SB, losing 0-2 vs Esper Control (featuring Monastery Mentor), and 0-2 vs Saheeli Felidar Combo. It had all started so well against a Naya Control deck (Nahiri + Emrakul), winning 2-0. What went wrong?
Next steps : revamped flex slots, with 3-4 Leeching and 2-3 Syphon/Automaton (probably Automaton, to win faster), and review SB.
Jailer/Cage and Teeg/Ouphe are all awesome against Bridgevine and Tron. Jailer is also randomly good against Ux Control (Snap and Teferi’s flashback), Arclight Phoenix, Classic Dredge, Hollow One, etc. Cage prevents CoCo and Neoform can’t Combo with this on the board. Teeg is good vs sweepers, Cryptic Command, PWs, Entreat the Angels, CoCo, etc. And Ouphe isn’t pointless vs Affinity and artifacts based Combo decks, like Paradoxial Urza. These 8 cards HAVE to stay.
There’s 7 slots left in the SB, but so much to do. Here’s a quick list of the matchups that require help from SB :
- Creatures Combo : Felidar, Vizier, Elves, Goblins.
- Midrange with recurring removals (that can overload us with flashback, Grim Lavamancer or Molten Vortex).
- Prison decks, with Chalice, Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon.
Frankly, I’m almost tempted to put Meddling Mage (or something that does the same) in the SB, to deal with both Creatures Combo and Prison decks. But the manabase is probably not very friendly to Mage. Thus, I doubt that we can divert our attention to all these 3 archetypes. We should focus on 2, and hope to have good post SB games against them. I would thus ignore Prison, because if feels natural losing to it, no matter what (Blood Moon turn 1? GG).Instant speed removals can deal with Creatures Combo, and other Aggro decks. That’s something to look at. And Athreos + Frenetic Sliver is a nice combo that can disrupt removals and sweepers that send our creatures anywhere but the GY. I know Frenetic’s ability is random. But against Control, it’s pseudo card advantage, the equivalent of flipping the top deck of a 30 Creatures deck and casting it for free every time opponent tries something nasty. Maybe even without Athreos... I don’t know.
I really am thorned here. Leeching makes a lot of sense for a fast win on game 1. More than 3 Syphon and an extra Sentinel. There are hard matchups, however, where these are needed. And considering how some Midrange matchups are also a pain, I’m considering Athreos in the main deck...
These flex slots really are giving me a headache.
-4 Leeching
+1 Sentinel (now 3)
+3 Syphon (from 0)
That way, I get better games against Creatures Combo decks, as gaining life and keeping blockers can win such games.
Collector Ouphe has replaced Harmonic Sliver in the SB. With Syphon now in the main deck, I’ve replaced it with 2 Leeching for a more aggressive game 2 or 3 while on the play. But I’m seriously considering Plage Engineer instead, to fight Elves, Goblins and Humans. Naming Human, it can also be good against CoCo Combo, to kill Vizier and totally prevent the combo.
I’ve found out that Temur Midrange/Control, with Bloodmoon or Molten Vortex [along with Loam) is a pretty hard matchup. I don’t know what card would help there. I didn’t draw Athreos both games, but I think it would have been good... other ideas?
It shuts down Expedition Map, Chromatic Star/Sphere, Walking Ballista and Oblivion Stone. That’s a lot of application for one card, and you’re not just spot removing a single artifact.
Damping Sphere is the right card vs Amulet Titan. Knight of Autumn can destroy an Amulet *if* you play Hierarch on turn 1 or you’re on the play, *and* opponent doesn’t play a 2nd Amulet. Otherwise, it is too slow to break the Combo. Cross your fingers, and hope for Meddling Mage to do the job for you.