8 one-drops is a must, and maximum evasion is a must. If one flyer gets removed, another one will keep our attackers in the air. I like 8 one-drops + Vial to have the best curve, and greater odds of playing something on turn 1. Also, I don’t like wasting Vial with 1 counter on turn 2 if we run too few one-drops. And, if you land a 3rd land on turn 3, you can play two Slivers to go wide next turn. Finally, with Manaweft and Cloudshredder, one-drops can fill the board super quickly.
All these things considered, I choose to have these 8 one-drops to be 4 Galerider and 4 Striking (because First Strike is super good at instant speed to screw combat math, while Flanking is not).
But lists that play CoCo usually can’t afford so many one-drops, and will keep the count down to 4, all Galeriders, always. Because redundancy.
I did some testings yesterday, with my above list :
2-0 vs GW Midrange
2-0 vs Rakdos Midrange
2-1 vs Eldrazi Tron
2-0 vs Eldrazi Tron (rematch)
2-0 vs Sultai Control-hish
1-2 vs Hollow One / Cascade Living End (WTF?)
0-2 vs Rakdos Goblins
2-1 vs Elves
0-2 vs Elves (different opponent)
Conclusion : my list is very good against Control and Midrange, but not good against hyper aggressive decks like Goblins and Elves.
On the metagame clock, my deck is probably on two axis : Aggro-Control (because of some protection vs removals and counterspells) and Combo (because a flurry of spells win the game on the spot). This naturally gives my deck a bad matchup against Aggro. In my experience, Humans were also fragile to such very wide and explosive decks, like Elves.
These decks are not very common in the Modern metagame, but I would like to slightly tweak my deck (main or SB) to have a better chance against them. I’m not even sure Syphon Sliver in the main deck would do the job (Darkheart would guarantee I lose, so no-no). There isn’t much we can do against decks that can win on turn 3, except if it’s Combo-based and the Combo targets us (Mariner). Maybe Damping Sphere? But I fear it’s too slow vs Elves or Goblins. It’s only good on the play, on turn 2, and it will still put me behind on board.
Maybe I’ll just have to accept that my deck is generally good, but terrible in Go-Wide-Aggro matchups. I suppose that’s how Modern is...
I’ve been asked in private my opinion of Sliver Hivelord and Legion, but I will answer here...
I think they’re too slow. But sometimes Legion can be good, to go very big.
It’s very hard to tap 5 lands in a deck that wants to play as few as possible. To pool the mana required by these cards, we have to play 6-8 mana dorks. Adding two 5-colors-Lords to the deck takes as much as 10 slots in a deck (+4 lands, to go 22 ; +4 mana dorks ; +2 Legion), and 8 of which are pretty bad draw most of the time. Unless you’re very dedicated and play 4 Legion? In which case, I guess you can cast it on turn 3 if you untap with 3 lands, a one-drop and a mana dork. But that would not be lethal if you don’t play another Sliver on turn 4, to attack for 21. Still, just a turn 4 kill, that costs 500$ for 4 cards. I wouldn’t go there, since it’s quite easier to have a turn 4 kill in a deck that will be more constant than this.
It's maybe true but consider that with a blood moon in play you find hard times casting any spell.
I was using automaton too in my previous list but i figured out that sedge can easily be a 3/3 lord for 3 wich gives regen to the team.
Thake a look at meryn' video here.. this list is incredibly powerful https://youtu.be/eMYpkrrX48E
I carefully watched the whole video. And it convinced me that it’s not a manabase I want to play. It may be slightly better vs Blood Moon, as it plays 2 more dorks than I do, plus a Forest and a Swamp. But otherwise, many times in the 14 games, the lands restricted the plays.
Game 2, if not for Vial, 3 out 5 cards in hand would have been uncastable. Opponent conceded on turn 3, just because.
Game 3, no swamp on turn 3 for Sedge Sliver. Not even on turn 4. Meryn won that game just because of mana flood (unusual to cast CoCo on turn 4 with 20 lands).
I will accept a slightly worse matchup against Blood Moon (I still have playset of Vial and Manaweft) for a more consistent deck the rest of the time (16 Golden lands). Gee, Meryn’s deck only has 7 sources of red *and* white to cast Cloudshredder on turn 2! Sedge Sliver on turn 3 is also a challenge. The deck heavily relies too heavily on Vial and mana dorks to cast these (and Sinew + Galerider), or an answered prayer through CoCo. It certainly defies all logic behind the science of mana maths. I believe in maths, not luck. And, BTW, Blood Moon does screw up Sedge Sliver, unless you had that single Basic Swamp in play already (which may be a bad card most of the time). So a non-golden manabase may not be much more resilient to Blood Moon.
Also, with only 4 one-drops, turn 1 was often wasted. And if not because Vial was played, then Vial did nothing on turn 2 most of the time. Gee, starting on game 1, Meryn even stumbled with a hand of 3 drops. Still won that game on turn 6, but got lucky, according to comments. A faster list would have secured the win on turn 4, without giving so much chances for opponent to do their thing.
Meryn had an great run with Slivers, but the deck was forgiving, even with all the mistakes made. Gee, how many times a dork was played on turn 2 while any other Sliver would have been better (a lord or Cloudshredder for more damage, Diffusion for protection)? See game 7, 9 and 14. The dork can be played on turn 3 for the same effect, as it turns the turn 2 Sliver in a dork (and better with more one-drops).
Game 4, I like what Meryn did with Syphon Sliver. Life gained wouldn’t have protected the deck from being milled if Altar was in play, but opponent didn’t have it. Mental note : side in Syphon against Bridgevine. I’m not entirely convinced it’s worth it in the main deck, or if Striking does the job anyway, in preventing attacks (helps with Sentinel). But it’s worth considering it in my flex slots.
Finally, it’s great for Meryn that Storm conceded twice because the Combo failed. But main deck Mariner would have been GG for Slivers, and would have protected the Tribe many other times.
Overall, I am mostly agree with the thoughts of patbou_clone, and I will try this list for sure.
However, I will like to note that Dregscape Sliver has been really impressive for me, and a 2x or 3x maindeck. Being s 2/2 is very cool, even when we are on a race.
In a very linear Modern, Sentinel could be a little bit better (since it allows us to drop slivers without losing attackers), but Dregscape is also very contundent and another form of resiliency.
Just to make sure : when you tested Dregscape, was it in a deck with 4 Diffusion, 4 Mariner, 4 Cavern and 4 Vial? For me, in my testing with a deck sporting those cards, it was just a 2/2 vanilla (graveyard was empty most of the time, because spells not countered and creatures not removed). Given that Path to Exile, Settle the Wreckage, Karn, Ugin and the like all exile creatures, and how much graveyard hate there is in the current metagame (thanks to Arclight Phoenix and Bridgevine decks), it seems to me that Dregscape is better in theory than practice.
Combining Vigilance with Flying and First Strike means that we can aggressively attack and still have blockers to safely deal with opponent’s attackers without sacrificing them on a chump block. This, again, makes Dregscape worse for us, because we’re not feeding the graveyard with Slivers to Unearth.
Sincerely guys, I’m sorry if I appear to be stubborn on my position. I’m not, and can be persuaded to change my thinking. Remember, a few weeks ago, when I was primed with Athreos, Necrotic, Darkheart and Dregscape? I bought all these Slivers last week, and I most probably lost my money there, because they’ll sit in a box somewhere in my basement. They could have led to cute shenanigans, but that was all that they were. Extensive reflexions, play simulations and real life experience with similar decks led me to believe the path to glory with Slivers was different. Theory put in practice was very rewarding on the first night out with my brew, and this consolidated my position.
I’m certain the Slivers community would be better served if we can agree to a core list that is very competitive, with a few flex slots to personalize your deck if you want to. I thus encourage you all to sleeve up my suggested deck and trying out tonight. Or to at least run it in TopDecked’s simulator. I doubt you won’t be convinced.
patbou_clone thank yo for your work on good build with sideboard guide
But your stress on Humans makes me want to say: Slivers are not Humans
Same cards work a bit different, Ancient Ziggurat doesnt count for Sliver's Hive, we dont have etb effects (mostly), less things can be done with Vial narrowing to +1/+1 and first strike (because of that I always thought 3 and 0 are better Vial numbers than 4)
Both tribes have weak and strong sides, we should build accordingly and not try to replicate.
There are winning recipes in Magic. Humans have one. I think it’s pretty brilliant to crack down their code and see how this inspires us to create a competitive Slivers deck. It worked for me, and I cashed in with 3-0 (including a Bridgevine matchup).
I admit, however, that there are less tricks to instant speed Slivers than Humans. But other than Reflector Mage, Vial is pretty much an accelerator and mana fixer for Humans. There are some other plays with Vial in Humans, like Freebooter on draw step when opponent is empty handed, or Meddling Mage on a Miracle trigger. But these are very narrow.
We have a few others than just +1/+1 and first strike. Sometimes we’ll ambush a flying attacker. A Walking Ballista on 2 can be countered if it tries to remove a lord while opponent doesn’t have the mana to pay Diffusion or Mariner’s tax. Reflector Mage’s ETB ability can also be countered if we put our Disruptor in play while Mage is on the stack (before it’s ability triggers). Same goes for turn 3 Karn and Liliana.
In the end, I don’t see why we wouldn’t play full playset of Vial in Slivers. It worked for me. It should work for you too.
Im not a fan of playing 18 lands in Slivers. Humans have 1cmc mana dork, Slivers dont. Mana flood hurts Humans, Slivers have Sliver Hiver.
At 18 lands if you dont have Vial in opening hand there is a good chance you will lose in tempo horribly playing 0-1 creatures a turn.
Sliver Hive is plan B. It’s there. I want to play Manaweft because of it. But if you want to increase the land count to reliably activate, that’s a losing line. With as much as 30 lands (yes THIRTY, not a typo), 4 of which being Ziggurat, the odds of hitting 6 lands in 12 cards (6 turns, on the play) are only 42% (again, hypergeometric maths). That’s amazingly low, and you’re dead already if you flooded that much with Slivers.
18 lands is more than enough for plan A. Occasionally, the board will stall and you’ll break it by adding tokens every turn if you have Manaweft. That’s the best you can hope from Sliver Hive. Don’t expect to win with it against Control.
Slivers lack Humans' disruption so imho we should play more aggressively (with Diffusion and Manaweft being not great.
Manaweft can do more than a random Hive’s activation. It has the same boost effect than Vial for an alpha strike on turn 4... Even with seemingly bad starts (Mulligan down to 6, and open with Striking and Diffusion, instead of Galerider and Lord, thus skipping attack on turn 2) :
T1 Striking (always played before Galerider)
T2 Diffusion (always before any others ; block with 2 power and first strike if need be).
T3 Manaweft + Cloudshredder + any Lord (attack for 2 with Lord).
T4 any lord (attack for 18 with everything).
Note that in the above scenario, Diffusion protected the tribe (enabling the rest), tapped for mana to go wide and attacked for 3. That’s a lot for a single card.
Humans do have wins on turn 4, but they are more fragile to removals because these require they don’t play their disruption on turn 2. Also, these wins are concentrated on a fewer number of attackers, that are more easily removed or chump blocked.
Im not saying you have some clear mistakes or there are some rules in building Slivers (unlike you who says there are 52 locked slots))) but you are too much on 'if pros build Humans like this, it should be good in Slivers'
And a bit too high on Slivers with statements like "Diffusion Sliver is actually better than Kitesail Freebooter". Freebooter can discard Karn or Ugin, 2 for 1 a removal, evasive threat that can fly above 5/5 Angler or Tarmo to kill a Walker.
Freeboters never ever 2 for 1 a removal. A removal gets spent to deal with Freebooter (1 for 1) and opponent gets their other removal back. Diffusion will prevent a turn 3 Karn from targeting a Sliver (that’s enough to win, most of the time) and can fly with a much bigger body than a Freebooter. It can also prevent a Ballista from doing it’s thing, etc.
It’s different than Freebooter, and not necessarily strictly better. But, based from experience and results, it’s an amazing Sliver to repel removals. This, in itself, means it is a great enabler for the rest of our strategy.
I want to mention Slivers (and fast Slivers in particular) are most afraid of Wrath effects and 8 Diffusions dont help here.
True. But no other Slivers will help in that field, except maybe Sedge Sliver if you really want a crappy manabase, or Dregscape Sliver if you want to play a card that is not good most of the time. Except against sweepers, we shouldn’t have much Slivers in our graveyard, thanks to Cavern and Vial (that prevent counterspells) and Diffusion and Mariner (that prevent removals). And Slivers don’t ever chump block, except as a very last resort to avoid losing when already down to low life (good manabase help in that department). We take damage, surf the wave and enjoy that our little 1/1 finally attacks as a 4/4 Flying later in the game.
Slivers manage sweepers like any other Aggro decks do : kill opponent before the sweeper hit the board (turn 4 wins on the play do that just fine, except against Anger of the Gods, but it’s not Modern’s staple sweeper), or steadily beat with no more than 2 creatures until you can go alpha with haste.
Im long player of Leeching Sliver. While its cool, it deals damage before opponent can block, opponent can misplay against it, I always treated Adaptive Automaton as a better creature which we should play full playset before adding Leeching Sliver. Maybe with 8 flying slivers its drawbacks (no additional toughness) are less important, while drawbacks of Adaptive Automaton stay the same: 3cmc, not a sliver on the stack, Artifact.
Actually, I was about to post that Automaton are removed from the deck, to go with a full playset of Leeching. Keeping Vial on 2 is important, as is playing 2 Slivers per turns on T3 and T4. Leeching is way better than Automaton if you have these focus in mind. And it cannot be countered, thanks to Cavern.
Suggestions :
May I suggest you to try out my list at your LGS, and then share your experience with us?
Also, it’s very useful to test a deck’s behavior with a simulator. There’s one in Topdecked MTG (an app), and it’s super good. You can even test out a manabase for Sedge Sliver. Do 100 five turns simulations, and calculate the number of times manabase would have screwed you. Do the same with my version of the deck, and compare.
with 16 golden golden lands thats why you dont play sedge sliver?? no swamp?
do you find having only 8 lords not enough for power?
you sure you dont want to sneak sedge sliver and give up 4 golden lands for shockland or swamp worth it? or fetchland and shock or urborg?
My deck has 12 lords, with Adaptive Automaton and Leeching Sliver. That’s more than enough, and there are no needs to screw the manabase to make room for Sedge Sliver. Hit the wrong lands, and it’s only 2/2 vanilla for 3, which is terrible. If you remove 4 golden lands for Shocklands, the odds of having a Swamp on the battlefield on turn 3 are less than 50% (and a meager 56% by turn 5). Sedge Sliver is unreliable, unless you invest in an unreliable manabase. You’ll fix Sedge, but will create a lot of problems for the whole tribe (color screwed Slivers are sad Slivers).
Edit : I suggest you to use a hyper geometric calculator for doing your deck maths. You’ll find one in my signature. That’s how I figured out the above mentioned odds. It is particularly useful when building a manabase, to determine how many lands to play to be on curve, and how many color sources to play to fix your needs. Pretty sure that you’ll have a hard time coming up with a manabase that can support Sedge and all your other needs. And if you do, and come up with high odds (more than 90%, which is what pro players aim at), it will still be less than 100%. While your deck might stumble on mana, and be hurt by it, mine will never ever fail (except for Ziggurat vs Vial and Hive).
CoCo is definitely out of the question if we want to play Huntmaster and the new Ambusher. And I doubt we want to play Vial and a Tribal deck only. Werewolves have no disruption at all, unlike Humans. Thus, we will want to play the deck Midrange style, with as much Instants as possible, and some dorks.
Maybe something with 20 creatures : Villager and Recruiter as dorks ; Mayor, Huntmaster and Ambusher as lords.
As for the Instants, we need spells that will let us survive the long game, so we can eventually take over with our horde. Considering we already play Moonmist, why don’t we turbo fog style?
There’s a total of 20 spells at instant speed (considering Ambusher), whish should help our transformation. Maybe with such a deck we can survive the early game and swarm over the opponent with huge wolves and werewolves?
Full Moon’s Rise is not an instant, but I figured a cheap enchantment that is good both against Aggro (Trample) and Control (Regenerate) is something we should not let go.
Maybe we should skip Scorned Villager and play Lightning Bolt instead, to get some interactions. It’s not a super good mana dork. I would keep Recruiter, however, for the cost reduction when it flips, and the day side mana sink.
2GG Creature - Wolf (4/4)
Flash
Other Wolves and werewolves you control get +1/+1.
At the beginning of your end step, if you didn't cast a spell this turn, create a 2/2 green Wolf creature token.
A 4/4 Lord with Flash for 4, that spawns a 3/3 every turn (thanks to the anthem)... can that make Werewolves playable in Modern? The tribe desperately need good accelerators to make it work. I guess that, with Duskwatch Recruiter, if we pass the turn to let it flip, we can cast this for 3... We can even play low lands and Scorned Villager to cast Ambusher on turn 3 while missing a land drop...
It’s a very Midrange card, that can win over a game by its own.
An Ally deck recently got to Top 8 in Modern. Check it out...
Seems to me that Rally the Ancestors would have been a better card than Return to the Ranks. Maybe something to explore? I would try to avoid black in that brew, and focus on Bant. There are certainly green cards that can help fill the graveyard to help the combo.
What I don't like about Ancient Ziggurat is the impossibility to cast Aether Vial. Many times with 1 land and 1/2 vials the hand is a keep, but if that land is Ziggurat, you are mostly dead.
It is like when I played only 2 Reflecting Pool and my only two lands in hand where those two. And happened more than once that. I know, the odds are low for both scenarios, but very plausible.
That's why I stopped playing them both, Ancient and Pool.
Humans is one of the best deck in Modern, and nowhere close to get a ban. It plays 4 Ancient Ziggurat and 4 Aether Vial. Pro players around the world play that combination of cards, knowing well that ***** happens sometimes. But it doesn’t happen often enough to be a real problem. What a real problem can be is to stumble on your lands and get mana screwed. Games are lost because of that. Not because you had to Mulligan down to 6 once every 20 games (even these are winnable, like when I kept a one-lander with Mutavault and Aether Vial).
Humans are no better than Slivers. If 4 Ziggurats is good for them, you have to accept the small risk that comes with it. You’ll cash in dividends while doing so, I’m sure of that.
You can play Manaweft on turn 2, and follow up on turn 3 with Cloudshredder and dump your hand on the battlefield with all the hasted dorks (helpful with Vial).
I just want to add a precision to what I said earlier (quote above)...
By all means, first play Diffusion or Mariner on turn 2 to protect your board, then play Manaweft on turn 3. It will have the same acceleration effect, but with the bonus of more resilient Slivers. If you played Vial on turn 1, then you can activate it with 2 counters on turn 3, and put Cloudshredder on the battlefield. You can then tap the team for 3 mana to empty your hand (you can pool for 1 or 2 more mana if you managed to put a one-drop in play with Vial on turn 1 and/or if you land dropped on turn 3). It’s not that hard then to play a lord and a second Disruptor, and completely freak out opponent.
Yixlid Jailer vs Dredge and Bridgevine. Ravenous Trap may be better against Bridgevine (but not against classic Dredge), but I won’t invest 10$ in a narrow SB card that hates a deck that is about to get banned. And we can still win against a resolved Hogaak, even if it attacks once or twice (based on a true story).
Grafdigger’s Cage vs Dredge, Bridgevine and CoCo Combo. Enough said.
Gut Shot vs Humans, CoCo Combo and Mardu Pyromancer. Maybe even against Bridgevine? Killing a Carrion Feeder on turn 2 while it’s ability is on the stack and before any cards are put into the graveyard may slow down the deck and even avoid a Bridge trigger. If you’re really into it, you can also kill your own Sliver to exile Bridge from below.
Syphon Sliver vs Humans, Phoenix and Burn. I know I once said Darkheart Sliver was better, but for the moment, after seeing the deck in action yesterday, I think the life gained from Syphon would be better (and keeping a strong board presence is required in these matchups).
Athreos, God of Passage vs any sweepers or heavy removals decks (UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, The Rock, etc.). Dregscape Sliver once filled that role, and Frenetic Sliver or Sliver Hivelord can both do the job. But Dregscape is very mana intensive, Frenetic is unreliable and Hivelord is too slow, if at all castable. Athreos can play into our aggressive strategy if opponent chooses to pay the tax, and/or mitigate the card disadvantage when our Slivers are bounced in our hand (which is the most likely outcome, because boards are usually wiped when life is pretty low), so we can continue applying pressure. Athreos can be played with Vial or cast with Ziggurat, any mana dorks, or Cavern/Territory if you name God instead of sliver.
Harmonic Sliver vs Tron, Affinity, 8-Rack, and any deck that plays Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, Blood Moon, etc.
Damping Sphere vs Tron, Eldrazi, Phoenix, Storm, Ad Nauseum (?), etc.
I removed Spiteful Sliver from the SB. It seemed to me that it was mostly a cute card, and in the few cases where we win with it, we could probably win anyway with better and less conditional cards. Blasphemous Act Combo is extremely damaging to our manabase, and there are better and more fun ways to win with Slivers. This one is just awkward and not very consistent (cast Act and wipe your own board with no effect if opponent removes Spiteful at instant speed).
Big question now : what to side out in these matchups? Maybe Manaweft in matchups where the long game is opponents’ turf (Control, Tron), because we’re not likely to activate the Hive? Maybe just concentrate on our flex spots? Like Humans, it’s very hard to side cards out, because there is a very rigid core deck to Slivers. Are there really cards in our rigid slots that are not good in all matchups? I’m at a loss there for now, and spent... ideas are welcome.
If I get it right, you’ve filled the 6 flex spots with 4 Blur Sliver and 2 Fiery Islet, replaced 4 Manaweft Sliver with 4 Dismember, and 2 Ancient Ziggurat with 2 Fiery Islet to complete the set.
I don’t think it’s the right call, IMHO. Don’t fall in the trap of wanting to play Fiery Islet in the deck just because you’ve bought the full playset. I admit it’s a very fine land to start with, given Galerider and Striking Slivers. And it can help cast both Mariner and Cloudshredder... if your second land is not Mutavault or another Fiery Islet. In which case, every other Slivers are dead cards in your hand, except Diffusion. That scenario happens time to time with Humans (I know, I’ve been there), where your turn 2 Meddling Mage or Freebooter can’t be cast because your lands and double Horizon Canopy.
Run 4 Fiery Islet along with 2 Mutavault, and that’s 6 lands that can totally screw you. You can reduce the odds by a lot if you just stick with the Mutavault (2) and Ziggurat (playset). And you won’t need to cycle your lands so much if you play with just 18 lands instead of 20.
I can tell you that I *REALLY* liked the manabase with 16 golden lands. The ability to cast everything without worries is priceless. Also, the 4 Ziggurat will help if you side in cards that are non-Slivers (like Collector Ouphe or Yixlid Jailer).
Another drawback to Fiery Islet is how it’s a nonbo with Sliver Hive. Start cycling you land to draw a random card (37% chance it will be land or vial ; 40% if you play 20 lands instead of 18), and you’ll be short to activate the Hive to produce a token. That token is known quantity, and *REPEATABLE*. It can be huge, with flying and haste, not just 1/1 vanilla.
The Sliver Hive is the main reason I decided to play with 4 mana dorks (and these dorks are the reason I play with Sentinel). Without them, you need 6 non-Ziggurat lands, which is near impossible. The acceleration is not useless. You can play Manaweft on turn 2, and follow up on turn 3 with Cloudshredder and dump your hand on the battlefield with all the hasted dorks (helpful with Vial).
Dismember is SB for me. In many matchups, it will be a dead card on game 1. And those that matter, that play lots of creatures, trading a card and 4 life to remove a threat is just feeding opponent’s aggressive strategy. Better to have a more aggressive and linear game 1, and surgically side in some important cards for game 2 (and 3, if necessary). Dismember is only good, I think, against creature-based Combo decks (CoCo Vizier, Storm’s Baral, Felidar/Saheeli, etc.), or when you can 2 for 1 a Spell Queller or prevent a Reclamation Angel’s ambush. Thus, SB material. Remember that for every Dismember you play main deck, that’s one less Sliver to play to achieve the critical mass we need to win (like Burn). Can you imagine drawing 2 and paying 8 life to destroy some aggressive creatures? You may as well concede the game, and you would have been better building a board of First Strike blockers to stall opponent (Manaweft can do that REALLY well). Again, Dismember is pure SB material, I’m certain of that.
Blur Sliver, however, intrigues me. It may be what we need sometimes. But if we have a board already, will it matter much if we add a 2/2 haste to it? Or will it matter more if we pump the said board with Adaptive Automaton? Or if we play Leeching Sliver to give some reach and extra damage? Which one gives the most damage output? I guess it depends on the situation. But I think that most of the time, you’ll be better with Leeching or Automaton. Don’t forget that Slivers are generally quite small to start with (1/1), and they need lords to be relevant threats. Also, 3 lords effect will put our Slivers out of range for Bolt and Anger of the Gods.
TLDR : I like that your ideas had created this discussion, but for the moment, I think we should stick to these concepts : 1) we want 16 golden lands, 2) we need Manaweft to make Sliver Hive’s activation possible, 3) Dismember is SB material and we’re better with more Slivers and 4) Automaton and Leeching are better than Blur Sliver for us, given the rest of our deck.
About the matchups (I’ll make it short, a bit tired here) :
2-0 vs BW Tokens :
I kept a one lander with 2 Vials. Never saw a second land, but it wasn’t necessary.
Game 2, opponent mulliganed down to 5. It was an easy win.
We played a third game, just for fun. His deck did its thing then, but mine was still better.
2-1 vs Bant Snow Control :
Spell Queller is really irritating, because it bypasses Cavern of Souls, and because we need 2 lords to outgrow it. I managed to win game 3 with wise plays, but I should probably have sided in Dismember, to deal with Queller and Restoration Angel.
2-1 vs Bridgevine :
Game 1, opponent got 4 Bridge in his graveyard on turn 2. He got 4 tokens, tapped some and exiled cards in his graveyard to cast Hogaak and added Vengevine to the party. End of my turn 2, he sacrificed a creature at instant speed to add 4 more 2/2 tokens. He untapped on turn 3 with 28 power on the battlefield. Sure.
Game 2, I sided in Grafdigger’s Cage and 2 Yixlid Jailer. I had none in my opening hand, and figured I would lose the game if I didn’t have a hate card. I mulliganed to 6, and got Jailer. But it was a one lander with Mutavault and Aether Vial. Well, better than nothing. I luckily topdecked an Ancient Ziggurat (and I forgot to Scry 1) on turn 2 to play Jailer right away instead of having to wait until turn 3, and it helped. Still, opponent was able to hard cast Hogaak from his hand on turn 3 (Jailer doesn’t prevent Delve). I carefully took damage on two passes, eventually blocking a Carrion with a 3/3 Sliver token (avoiding defeat and preserving my board), and topdecked a Cloudshredder. I activated Mutavault, and attacked with everything for 18 damage (he was at 17).
Game 3, I had Grafdigger’s Cage in my opening hand. Opponent still managed to cast Hogaak eventually (Bridge still triggers with Cage), but my wide board of flyers did the job.
I got lucky against Bridgevine, but it was self made luck. I had the right deck, and took the right decisions as to what cards to put in my SB, when to Mulligan, and how to block and solve the puzzle to win. In the end, pretty happy!
Problem with my other account (@patbou) after I reseted my password on Twitch. Something to do with sync and third party... I thus created this clone account, but I’m the same guy.
I cashed in with Slivers at my LGS last night, ending up 1st out of 23 players :
I actually scored 3-0, because the store’s owner never let us play a 4th round at FNM-style events (weekends tournaments and PPTQ are different). Nonetheless, at the end of these 3 rounds, out of the 3 players who were at 3-0, I was ranked first thanks to the tie breakers.
The deck list is the result of very thorough thinking. And although I would change a few things, I wouldn’t change much. You see, I also play Humans in Modern, and I tried to somehow replicate the elements of their success in a Slivers deck :
Vial + 8 one-drops, so that I would reliably curve out on the first 3 turns. Dream scenario is T1 Vial, T2 two-drop + one-drop, T3 2x two-drops + one-drop.
8 disruptive elements. Unsettled Mariner is a pseudo Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, while Diffusion Sliver is actually better than Kitesail Freebooter. The later won’t survive a hand with two removals, but our Sliver can do that. And because Mariner and Diffusion stack together and in multiples, we can often lock the opponent from interacting with our board.
8 creatures that have/grant evasion. Cloudshredder Sliver is better than Mantis Rider, period. And if it gets removed, Galerider Sliver offers redundancy. I don’t count Freebooter in the evasive package of Humans (1/2 is not relevant). People believe Reflector Mage is disruption for Humans, but what it really does is clear the floor of blocker for 2 turns, allowing the rest of the tribe to attack more freely. This is evasion, IMHO, and both our flying Slivers do this job better than Mage (and no need to remove a threat if you can win before it’s a problem).
8 creatures that can grow, or grow the team. We’ll never get a Sliver as fat as an unchecked Champion of the Parish or Thalia’s Lieutenant (pretty easy to chump block), but our lords can grow the whole team (even the ones that will ETB later), which makes good blocks a lot more difficult (and easier to threaten lethal).
4 mana dorks that can do more. Noble Hierarch is not only good at accelerating Humans, it also grants some protection to Blood Moon (along with Vial). Our mana dorks do the same for us. And although they can’t accelerate us starting turn 2, they can allow us to unload our hand on turn 3 and go very wide and big and evasive for our alpha strike. While Exalt makes Hierarch relevant in other fields, it only pumps but a single attacker, which again makes blocking Humans easier. I’ll be happy with my Manaweft as a 3/3 Flying Haste attacker, alongside 3 other Slivers with the same stats.
Very reliable manabase that includes some manasink. I won’t miss Horizon Canopy in Slivers if for the same cost of 1 I can guarantee a 2/2 Mutavault (4/4 Flying Haste?) with no risk of hitting a land or a Vial. Sliver Hive is very expansive to activate, but it only takes 3 lands and 3 Slivers to repeatedly activate it (if one is a Manaweft). In the end, we’re trading 4 lands that « cycle » for 6 certain and repeatable manasinks.
So if we all agree that Humans is a damn good deck, and we want Slivers to be better (they can, according to above logic), we also have to agree on some « locked » slots, with little room for personalization (Humans’ flex spot). It’s sad, but it means that any decks that won’t sport these will always be a lesser version of Slivers. Our locked slots should be 4 of each :
Total of 52 cards, including 16 lands. We *have* to add 2 Mutavault to get the proper amount of mana. We should be fine with 18. Humans play 19 lands, but their list has 7 to 10 creatures at 3 CMC. All ours cost 1 or 2 so far, which makes Aether Vial easier to manage.
This only leaves 6 slots open for creativity, IMHO, and to make up for the lack of a Meddling Mage effect (if we can’t prevent opponent from doing their thing, maybe we can win faster?) :
I think 2 Sentinel Slivers could be good. Vigilance is sometimes relevant, particularly on defense with Striking Sliver or to attack and activate Sliver Hive with Manaweft Sliver. The 2/2 body is very relevant. With the help of a lord, it was the only Sliver yesterday that could attack with no fear into Spell Queller, and I’m glad I had it with 2 lords or Restoration Angel would have locked me out of possible attacks.
The other 4 slots could be some amount of Leeching Slivers and/or Adaptive Automaton. Leeching doesn’t boost power and toughness, but gives some reach and you get some guaranteed damage that can’t be blocked. In multiples, and with a wide board, they can win the game on their own. Automaton makes combat math favorable to you, but it costs 3 (awkward with Vial if all the rest cost 2) and it can be countered, unless you named Construct with Cavern.
Other cards could be good, too. But if you look at the rational of the above arguments, I doubt there are much other Slivers you will want to play in the main deck. That is, if you’re interested in building a competitive deck, like I am. Goal is to win game 1 all the time with a deck that is explosive, evasive and hard to interact with. That leaves us 2 games to win another one with the help of the SB.
If anyone has better ideas for these flex spots, by all means, share them with us. I don’t pretend to hold the truth on the subject of Slivers, so I’m ready to learn. I’m known as the Tribal Master in my gaming community (quasi-undefeated with Werewolves in old Innistrad Standard ; 1st at Sunday Super Series in GP Toronto with Ally Company ; surprising brew with Allies in Modern ; famous Humans in Modern ; and 3-0 with a brand new brew of Slivers in Modern), but I probably have a few more secrets to learn from the collective brain of the fans.
A note about Sidewinder Sliver : I played it in my main deck, but will switch it to full playset of Striking Sliver for the future. Flanking is hard to manage right, and easy to get around for the opponent. It is also *impossible* to trick opponent with it (playing it with Vial at instant speed after blockers are declared won’t trigger it). First Strike can be a nice ambush (T2 lord + instant speed Striking = 4 power with First Strike to block with) and make blocking very easy (gang up and enjoy).
Also, you can see that I only played 3 Sinew Sliver in my list. The only reason why is because it is sold out everywhere in my region. I’ll have to order it from elsewhere.
All these things considered, I choose to have these 8 one-drops to be 4 Galerider and 4 Striking (because First Strike is super good at instant speed to screw combat math, while Flanking is not).
But lists that play CoCo usually can’t afford so many one-drops, and will keep the count down to 4, all Galeriders, always. Because redundancy.
I did some testings yesterday, with my above list :
2-0 vs GW Midrange
2-0 vs Rakdos Midrange
2-1 vs Eldrazi Tron
2-0 vs Eldrazi Tron (rematch)
2-0 vs Sultai Control-hish
1-2 vs Hollow One / Cascade Living End (WTF?)
0-2 vs Rakdos Goblins
2-1 vs Elves
0-2 vs Elves (different opponent)
Conclusion : my list is very good against Control and Midrange, but not good against hyper aggressive decks like Goblins and Elves.
On the metagame clock, my deck is probably on two axis : Aggro-Control (because of some protection vs removals and counterspells) and Combo (because a flurry of spells win the game on the spot). This naturally gives my deck a bad matchup against Aggro. In my experience, Humans were also fragile to such very wide and explosive decks, like Elves.
These decks are not very common in the Modern metagame, but I would like to slightly tweak my deck (main or SB) to have a better chance against them. I’m not even sure Syphon Sliver in the main deck would do the job (Darkheart would guarantee I lose, so no-no). There isn’t much we can do against decks that can win on turn 3, except if it’s Combo-based and the Combo targets us (Mariner). Maybe Damping Sphere? But I fear it’s too slow vs Elves or Goblins. It’s only good on the play, on turn 2, and it will still put me behind on board.
Maybe I’ll just have to accept that my deck is generally good, but terrible in Go-Wide-Aggro matchups. I suppose that’s how Modern is...
I’ve been asked in private my opinion of Sliver Hivelord and Legion, but I will answer here...
I think they’re too slow. But sometimes Legion can be good, to go very big.
It’s very hard to tap 5 lands in a deck that wants to play as few as possible. To pool the mana required by these cards, we have to play 6-8 mana dorks. Adding two 5-colors-Lords to the deck takes as much as 10 slots in a deck (+4 lands, to go 22 ; +4 mana dorks ; +2 Legion), and 8 of which are pretty bad draw most of the time. Unless you’re very dedicated and play 4 Legion? In which case, I guess you can cast it on turn 3 if you untap with 3 lands, a one-drop and a mana dork. But that would not be lethal if you don’t play another Sliver on turn 4, to attack for 21. Still, just a turn 4 kill, that costs 500$ for 4 cards. I wouldn’t go there, since it’s quite easier to have a turn 4 kill in a deck that will be more constant than this.
- Game 2, if not for Vial, 3 out 5 cards in hand would have been uncastable. Opponent conceded on turn 3, just because.
- Game 3, no swamp on turn 3 for Sedge Sliver. Not even on turn 4. Meryn won that game just because of mana flood (unusual to cast CoCo on turn 4 with 20 lands).
I will accept a slightly worse matchup against Blood Moon (I still have playset of Vial and Manaweft) for a more consistent deck the rest of the time (16 Golden lands). Gee, Meryn’s deck only has 7 sources of red *and* white to cast Cloudshredder on turn 2! Sedge Sliver on turn 3 is also a challenge. The deck heavily relies too heavily on Vial and mana dorks to cast these (and Sinew + Galerider), or an answered prayer through CoCo. It certainly defies all logic behind the science of mana maths. I believe in maths, not luck. And, BTW, Blood Moon does screw up Sedge Sliver, unless you had that single Basic Swamp in play already (which may be a bad card most of the time). So a non-golden manabase may not be much more resilient to Blood Moon.Also, with only 4 one-drops, turn 1 was often wasted. And if not because Vial was played, then Vial did nothing on turn 2 most of the time. Gee, starting on game 1, Meryn even stumbled with a hand of 3 drops. Still won that game on turn 6, but got lucky, according to comments. A faster list would have secured the win on turn 4, without giving so much chances for opponent to do their thing.
Meryn had an great run with Slivers, but the deck was forgiving, even with all the mistakes made. Gee, how many times a dork was played on turn 2 while any other Sliver would have been better (a lord or Cloudshredder for more damage, Diffusion for protection)? See game 7, 9 and 14. The dork can be played on turn 3 for the same effect, as it turns the turn 2 Sliver in a dork (and better with more one-drops).
Game 4, I like what Meryn did with Syphon Sliver. Life gained wouldn’t have protected the deck from being milled if Altar was in play, but opponent didn’t have it. Mental note : side in Syphon against Bridgevine. I’m not entirely convinced it’s worth it in the main deck, or if Striking does the job anyway, in preventing attacks (helps with Sentinel). But it’s worth considering it in my flex slots.
Finally, it’s great for Meryn that Storm conceded twice because the Combo failed. But main deck Mariner would have been GG for Slivers, and would have protected the Tribe many other times.
Combining Vigilance with Flying and First Strike means that we can aggressively attack and still have blockers to safely deal with opponent’s attackers without sacrificing them on a chump block. This, again, makes Dregscape worse for us, because we’re not feeding the graveyard with Slivers to Unearth.
Sincerely guys, I’m sorry if I appear to be stubborn on my position. I’m not, and can be persuaded to change my thinking. Remember, a few weeks ago, when I was primed with Athreos, Necrotic, Darkheart and Dregscape? I bought all these Slivers last week, and I most probably lost my money there, because they’ll sit in a box somewhere in my basement. They could have led to cute shenanigans, but that was all that they were. Extensive reflexions, play simulations and real life experience with similar decks led me to believe the path to glory with Slivers was different. Theory put in practice was very rewarding on the first night out with my brew, and this consolidated my position.
I’m certain the Slivers community would be better served if we can agree to a core list that is very competitive, with a few flex slots to personalize your deck if you want to. I thus encourage you all to sleeve up my suggested deck and trying out tonight. Or to at least run it in TopDecked’s simulator. I doubt you won’t be convinced.
I admit, however, that there are less tricks to instant speed Slivers than Humans. But other than Reflector Mage, Vial is pretty much an accelerator and mana fixer for Humans. There are some other plays with Vial in Humans, like Freebooter on draw step when opponent is empty handed, or Meddling Mage on a Miracle trigger. But these are very narrow.
We have a few others than just +1/+1 and first strike. Sometimes we’ll ambush a flying attacker. A Walking Ballista on 2 can be countered if it tries to remove a lord while opponent doesn’t have the mana to pay Diffusion or Mariner’s tax. Reflector Mage’s ETB ability can also be countered if we put our Disruptor in play while Mage is on the stack (before it’s ability triggers). Same goes for turn 3 Karn and Liliana.
In the end, I don’t see why we wouldn’t play full playset of Vial in Slivers. It worked for me. It should work for you too.
Sliver Hive is plan B. It’s there. I want to play Manaweft because of it. But if you want to increase the land count to reliably activate, that’s a losing line. With as much as 30 lands (yes THIRTY, not a typo), 4 of which being Ziggurat, the odds of hitting 6 lands in 12 cards (6 turns, on the play) are only 42% (again, hypergeometric maths). That’s amazingly low, and you’re dead already if you flooded that much with Slivers.
18 lands is more than enough for plan A. Occasionally, the board will stall and you’ll break it by adding tokens every turn if you have Manaweft. That’s the best you can hope from Sliver Hive. Don’t expect to win with it against Control.
Manaweft can do more than a random Hive’s activation. It has the same boost effect than Vial for an alpha strike on turn 4... Even with seemingly bad starts (Mulligan down to 6, and open with Striking and Diffusion, instead of Galerider and Lord, thus skipping attack on turn 2) :
- T1 Striking (always played before Galerider)
- T2 Diffusion (always before any others ; block with 2 power and first strike if need be).
- T3 Manaweft + Cloudshredder + any Lord (attack for 2 with Lord).
- T4 any lord (attack for 18 with everything).
Note that in the above scenario, Diffusion protected the tribe (enabling the rest), tapped for mana to go wide and attacked for 3. That’s a lot for a single card.Humans do have wins on turn 4, but they are more fragile to removals because these require they don’t play their disruption on turn 2. Also, these wins are concentrated on a fewer number of attackers, that are more easily removed or chump blocked.
Freeboters never ever 2 for 1 a removal. A removal gets spent to deal with Freebooter (1 for 1) and opponent gets their other removal back. Diffusion will prevent a turn 3 Karn from targeting a Sliver (that’s enough to win, most of the time) and can fly with a much bigger body than a Freebooter. It can also prevent a Ballista from doing it’s thing, etc.
It’s different than Freebooter, and not necessarily strictly better. But, based from experience and results, it’s an amazing Sliver to repel removals. This, in itself, means it is a great enabler for the rest of our strategy.
True. But no other Slivers will help in that field, except maybe Sedge Sliver if you really want a crappy manabase, or Dregscape Sliver if you want to play a card that is not good most of the time. Except against sweepers, we shouldn’t have much Slivers in our graveyard, thanks to Cavern and Vial (that prevent counterspells) and Diffusion and Mariner (that prevent removals). And Slivers don’t ever chump block, except as a very last resort to avoid losing when already down to low life (good manabase help in that department). We take damage, surf the wave and enjoy that our little 1/1 finally attacks as a 4/4 Flying later in the game.
Slivers manage sweepers like any other Aggro decks do : kill opponent before the sweeper hit the board (turn 4 wins on the play do that just fine, except against Anger of the Gods, but it’s not Modern’s staple sweeper), or steadily beat with no more than 2 creatures until you can go alpha with haste.
Actually, I was about to post that Automaton are removed from the deck, to go with a full playset of Leeching. Keeping Vial on 2 is important, as is playing 2 Slivers per turns on T3 and T4. Leeching is way better than Automaton if you have these focus in mind. And it cannot be countered, thanks to Cavern.
Suggestions :
Edit : I suggest you to use a hyper geometric calculator for doing your deck maths. You’ll find one in my signature. That’s how I figured out the above mentioned odds. It is particularly useful when building a manabase, to determine how many lands to play to be on curve, and how many color sources to play to fix your needs. Pretty sure that you’ll have a hard time coming up with a manabase that can support Sedge and all your other needs. And if you do, and come up with high odds (more than 90%, which is what pro players aim at), it will still be less than 100%. While your deck might stumble on mana, and be hurt by it, mine will never ever fail (except for Ziggurat vs Vial and Hive).
Maybe something with 20 creatures : Villager and Recruiter as dorks ; Mayor, Huntmaster and Ambusher as lords.
As for the Instants, we need spells that will let us survive the long game, so we can eventually take over with our horde. Considering we already play Moonmist, why don’t we turbo fog style?
4 Scorned Villager
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Nightpack Ambusher
Enchantment
4 Full Moon’s Rise
4 Fog
4 Moonmist
4 Winds of Qal Sisma
4 Blossoming Defense
Lands
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Stomping Ground
1 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
Full Moon’s Rise is not an instant, but I figured a cheap enchantment that is good both against Aggro (Trample) and Control (Regenerate) is something we should not let go.
Maybe we should skip Scorned Villager and play Lightning Bolt instead, to get some interactions. It’s not a super good mana dork. I would keep Recruiter, however, for the cost reduction when it flips, and the day side mana sink.
A 4/4 Lord with Flash for 4, that spawns a 3/3 every turn (thanks to the anthem)... can that make Werewolves playable in Modern? The tribe desperately need good accelerators to make it work. I guess that, with Duskwatch Recruiter, if we pass the turn to let it flip, we can cast this for 3... We can even play low lands and Scorned Villager to cast Ambusher on turn 3 while missing a land drop...
It’s a very Midrange card, that can win over a game by its own.
Seems to me that Rally the Ancestors would have been a better card than Return to the Ranks. Maybe something to explore? I would try to avoid black in that brew, and focus on Bant. There are certainly green cards that can help fill the graveyard to help the combo.
Humans are no better than Slivers. If 4 Ziggurats is good for them, you have to accept the small risk that comes with it. You’ll cash in dividends while doing so, I’m sure of that.
By all means, first play Diffusion or Mariner on turn 2 to protect your board, then play Manaweft on turn 3. It will have the same acceleration effect, but with the bonus of more resilient Slivers. If you played Vial on turn 1, then you can activate it with 2 counters on turn 3, and put Cloudshredder on the battlefield. You can then tap the team for 3 mana to empty your hand (you can pool for 1 or 2 more mana if you managed to put a one-drop in play with Vial on turn 1 and/or if you land dropped on turn 3). It’s not that hard then to play a lord and a second Disruptor, and completely freak out opponent.
4 Aether Vial
4 Striking Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
Disruptors (8)
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Unsettled Mariner
Accelerators (8)
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
Lords (8)
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
2 Sentinel Sliver
2 Leeching Sliver
2 Adaptive Automaton
Lands (18)
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Mutavault
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dismember
1 Gut Shot
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Athreos, God of Passage
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Damping Sphere
Sideboard Guide :
- Yixlid Jailer vs Dredge and Bridgevine. Ravenous Trap may be better against Bridgevine (but not against classic Dredge), but I won’t invest 10$ in a narrow SB card that hates a deck that is about to get banned. And we can still win against a resolved Hogaak, even if it attacks once or twice (based on a true story).
- Grafdigger’s Cage vs Dredge, Bridgevine and CoCo Combo. Enough said.
- Dismember vs CoCo Combo, Saheeli/Felidar, classic Storm and any decks that play Spell Queller or Thing in the Ice.
- Gut Shot vs Humans, CoCo Combo and Mardu Pyromancer. Maybe even against Bridgevine? Killing a Carrion Feeder on turn 2 while it’s ability is on the stack and before any cards are put into the graveyard may slow down the deck and even avoid a Bridge trigger. If you’re really into it, you can also kill your own Sliver to exile Bridge from below.
- Syphon Sliver vs Humans, Phoenix and Burn. I know I once said Darkheart Sliver was better, but for the moment, after seeing the deck in action yesterday, I think the life gained from Syphon would be better (and keeping a strong board presence is required in these matchups).
- Athreos, God of Passage vs any sweepers or heavy removals decks (UW Control, Tron, Scapeshift, The Rock, etc.). Dregscape Sliver once filled that role, and Frenetic Sliver or Sliver Hivelord can both do the job. But Dregscape is very mana intensive, Frenetic is unreliable and Hivelord is too slow, if at all castable. Athreos can play into our aggressive strategy if opponent chooses to pay the tax, and/or mitigate the card disadvantage when our Slivers are bounced in our hand (which is the most likely outcome, because boards are usually wiped when life is pretty low), so we can continue applying pressure. Athreos can be played with Vial or cast with Ziggurat, any mana dorks, or Cavern/Territory if you name God instead of sliver.
- Harmonic Sliver vs Tron, Affinity, 8-Rack, and any deck that plays Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice of the Void, Engineered Explosives, Blood Moon, etc.
- Damping Sphere vs Tron, Eldrazi, Phoenix, Storm, Ad Nauseum (?), etc.
I removed Spiteful Sliver from the SB. It seemed to me that it was mostly a cute card, and in the few cases where we win with it, we could probably win anyway with better and less conditional cards. Blasphemous Act Combo is extremely damaging to our manabase, and there are better and more fun ways to win with Slivers. This one is just awkward and not very consistent (cast Act and wipe your own board with no effect if opponent removes Spiteful at instant speed).Big question now : what to side out in these matchups? Maybe Manaweft in matchups where the long game is opponents’ turf (Control, Tron), because we’re not likely to activate the Hive? Maybe just concentrate on our flex spots? Like Humans, it’s very hard to side cards out, because there is a very rigid core deck to Slivers. Are there really cards in our rigid slots that are not good in all matchups? I’m at a loss there for now, and spent... ideas are welcome.
I don’t think it’s the right call, IMHO. Don’t fall in the trap of wanting to play Fiery Islet in the deck just because you’ve bought the full playset. I admit it’s a very fine land to start with, given Galerider and Striking Slivers. And it can help cast both Mariner and Cloudshredder... if your second land is not Mutavault or another Fiery Islet. In which case, every other Slivers are dead cards in your hand, except Diffusion. That scenario happens time to time with Humans (I know, I’ve been there), where your turn 2 Meddling Mage or Freebooter can’t be cast because your lands and double Horizon Canopy.
Run 4 Fiery Islet along with 2 Mutavault, and that’s 6 lands that can totally screw you. You can reduce the odds by a lot if you just stick with the Mutavault (2) and Ziggurat (playset). And you won’t need to cycle your lands so much if you play with just 18 lands instead of 20.
I can tell you that I *REALLY* liked the manabase with 16 golden lands. The ability to cast everything without worries is priceless. Also, the 4 Ziggurat will help if you side in cards that are non-Slivers (like Collector Ouphe or Yixlid Jailer).
Another drawback to Fiery Islet is how it’s a nonbo with Sliver Hive. Start cycling you land to draw a random card (37% chance it will be land or vial ; 40% if you play 20 lands instead of 18), and you’ll be short to activate the Hive to produce a token. That token is known quantity, and *REPEATABLE*. It can be huge, with flying and haste, not just 1/1 vanilla.
The Sliver Hive is the main reason I decided to play with 4 mana dorks (and these dorks are the reason I play with Sentinel). Without them, you need 6 non-Ziggurat lands, which is near impossible. The acceleration is not useless. You can play Manaweft on turn 2, and follow up on turn 3 with Cloudshredder and dump your hand on the battlefield with all the hasted dorks (helpful with Vial).
Dismember is SB for me. In many matchups, it will be a dead card on game 1. And those that matter, that play lots of creatures, trading a card and 4 life to remove a threat is just feeding opponent’s aggressive strategy. Better to have a more aggressive and linear game 1, and surgically side in some important cards for game 2 (and 3, if necessary). Dismember is only good, I think, against creature-based Combo decks (CoCo Vizier, Storm’s Baral, Felidar/Saheeli, etc.), or when you can 2 for 1 a Spell Queller or prevent a Reclamation Angel’s ambush. Thus, SB material. Remember that for every Dismember you play main deck, that’s one less Sliver to play to achieve the critical mass we need to win (like Burn). Can you imagine drawing 2 and paying 8 life to destroy some aggressive creatures? You may as well concede the game, and you would have been better building a board of First Strike blockers to stall opponent (Manaweft can do that REALLY well). Again, Dismember is pure SB material, I’m certain of that.
Blur Sliver, however, intrigues me. It may be what we need sometimes. But if we have a board already, will it matter much if we add a 2/2 haste to it? Or will it matter more if we pump the said board with Adaptive Automaton? Or if we play Leeching Sliver to give some reach and extra damage? Which one gives the most damage output? I guess it depends on the situation. But I think that most of the time, you’ll be better with Leeching or Automaton. Don’t forget that Slivers are generally quite small to start with (1/1), and they need lords to be relevant threats. Also, 3 lords effect will put our Slivers out of range for Bolt and Anger of the Gods.
TLDR : I like that your ideas had created this discussion, but for the moment, I think we should stick to these concepts : 1) we want 16 golden lands, 2) we need Manaweft to make Sliver Hive’s activation possible, 3) Dismember is SB material and we’re better with more Slivers and 4) Automaton and Leeching are better than Blur Sliver for us, given the rest of our deck.
2-0 vs BW Tokens :
I kept a one lander with 2 Vials. Never saw a second land, but it wasn’t necessary.
Game 2, opponent mulliganed down to 5. It was an easy win.
We played a third game, just for fun. His deck did its thing then, but mine was still better.
2-1 vs Bant Snow Control :
Spell Queller is really irritating, because it bypasses Cavern of Souls, and because we need 2 lords to outgrow it. I managed to win game 3 with wise plays, but I should probably have sided in Dismember, to deal with Queller and Restoration Angel.
2-1 vs Bridgevine :
Game 1, opponent got 4 Bridge in his graveyard on turn 2. He got 4 tokens, tapped some and exiled cards in his graveyard to cast Hogaak and added Vengevine to the party. End of my turn 2, he sacrificed a creature at instant speed to add 4 more 2/2 tokens. He untapped on turn 3 with 28 power on the battlefield. Sure.
Game 2, I sided in Grafdigger’s Cage and 2 Yixlid Jailer. I had none in my opening hand, and figured I would lose the game if I didn’t have a hate card. I mulliganed to 6, and got Jailer. But it was a one lander with Mutavault and Aether Vial. Well, better than nothing. I luckily topdecked an Ancient Ziggurat (and I forgot to Scry 1) on turn 2 to play Jailer right away instead of having to wait until turn 3, and it helped. Still, opponent was able to hard cast Hogaak from his hand on turn 3 (Jailer doesn’t prevent Delve). I carefully took damage on two passes, eventually blocking a Carrion with a 3/3 Sliver token (avoiding defeat and preserving my board), and topdecked a Cloudshredder. I activated Mutavault, and attacked with everything for 18 damage (he was at 17).
Game 3, I had Grafdigger’s Cage in my opening hand. Opponent still managed to cast Hogaak eventually (Bridge still triggers with Cage), but my wide board of flyers did the job.
I got lucky against Bridgevine, but it was self made luck. I had the right deck, and took the right decisions as to what cards to put in my SB, when to Mulligan, and how to block and solve the puzzle to win. In the end, pretty happy!
I cashed in with Slivers at my LGS last night, ending up 1st out of 23 players :
2 Sidewinder Sliver
2 Striking Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Diffusion Sliver
4 Unsettled Mariner
2 Gemhide Sliver
2 Manaweft Sliver
2 Sentinel Sliver
2 Leeching Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
3 Adaptive Automaton
4 Aether Vial
Lands (18)
4 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Dregscape Sliver
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Harmonic Sliver
2 Spiteful Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Dismember
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Damping Sphere
I actually scored 3-0, because the store’s owner never let us play a 4th round at FNM-style events (weekends tournaments and PPTQ are different). Nonetheless, at the end of these 3 rounds, out of the 3 players who were at 3-0, I was ranked first thanks to the tie breakers.
The deck list is the result of very thorough thinking. And although I would change a few things, I wouldn’t change much. You see, I also play Humans in Modern, and I tried to somehow replicate the elements of their success in a Slivers deck :
- Vial + 8 one-drops, so that I would reliably curve out on the first 3 turns. Dream scenario is T1 Vial, T2 two-drop + one-drop, T3 2x two-drops + one-drop.
- 8 disruptive elements. Unsettled Mariner is a pseudo Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, while Diffusion Sliver is actually better than Kitesail Freebooter. The later won’t survive a hand with two removals, but our Sliver can do that. And because Mariner and Diffusion stack together and in multiples, we can often lock the opponent from interacting with our board.
- 8 creatures that have/grant evasion. Cloudshredder Sliver is better than Mantis Rider, period. And if it gets removed, Galerider Sliver offers redundancy. I don’t count Freebooter in the evasive package of Humans (1/2 is not relevant). People believe Reflector Mage is disruption for Humans, but what it really does is clear the floor of blocker for 2 turns, allowing the rest of the tribe to attack more freely. This is evasion, IMHO, and both our flying Slivers do this job better than Mage (and no need to remove a threat if you can win before it’s a problem).
- 8 creatures that can grow, or grow the team. We’ll never get a Sliver as fat as an unchecked Champion of the Parish or Thalia’s Lieutenant (pretty easy to chump block), but our lords can grow the whole team (even the ones that will ETB later), which makes good blocks a lot more difficult (and easier to threaten lethal).
- 4 mana dorks that can do more. Noble Hierarch is not only good at accelerating Humans, it also grants some protection to Blood Moon (along with Vial). Our mana dorks do the same for us. And although they can’t accelerate us starting turn 2, they can allow us to unload our hand on turn 3 and go very wide and big and evasive for our alpha strike. While Exalt makes Hierarch relevant in other fields, it only pumps but a single attacker, which again makes blocking Humans easier. I’ll be happy with my Manaweft as a 3/3 Flying Haste attacker, alongside 3 other Slivers with the same stats.
- Very reliable manabase that includes some manasink. I won’t miss Horizon Canopy in Slivers if for the same cost of 1 I can guarantee a 2/2 Mutavault (4/4 Flying Haste?) with no risk of hitting a land or a Vial. Sliver Hive is very expansive to activate, but it only takes 3 lands and 3 Slivers to repeatedly activate it (if one is a Manaweft). In the end, we’re trading 4 lands that « cycle » for 6 certain and repeatable manasinks.
So if we all agree that Humans is a damn good deck, and we want Slivers to be better (they can, according to above logic), we also have to agree on some « locked » slots, with little room for personalization (Humans’ flex spot). It’s sad, but it means that any decks that won’t sport these will always be a lesser version of Slivers. Our locked slots should be 4 of each :- Aether Vial
- Striking Sliver
- Galerider Sliver
- Cloudshredder Sliver
- Diffusion Sliver
- Unsettled Mariner
- Manaweft Sliver
- Predatory Sliver
- Sinew Sliver
- Sliver Hive
- Cavern of Souls
- Unclaimed Territory
- Ancient Ziggurat
Total of 52 cards, including 16 lands. We *have* to add 2 Mutavault to get the proper amount of mana. We should be fine with 18. Humans play 19 lands, but their list has 7 to 10 creatures at 3 CMC. All ours cost 1 or 2 so far, which makes Aether Vial easier to manage.This only leaves 6 slots open for creativity, IMHO, and to make up for the lack of a Meddling Mage effect (if we can’t prevent opponent from doing their thing, maybe we can win faster?) :
- Collected Company and Sedge Sliver are not an option at all, because of manabase.
- I think 2 Sentinel Slivers could be good. Vigilance is sometimes relevant, particularly on defense with Striking Sliver or to attack and activate Sliver Hive with Manaweft Sliver. The 2/2 body is very relevant. With the help of a lord, it was the only Sliver yesterday that could attack with no fear into Spell Queller, and I’m glad I had it with 2 lords or Restoration Angel would have locked me out of possible attacks.
- The other 4 slots could be some amount of Leeching Slivers and/or Adaptive Automaton. Leeching doesn’t boost power and toughness, but gives some reach and you get some guaranteed damage that can’t be blocked. In multiples, and with a wide board, they can win the game on their own. Automaton makes combat math favorable to you, but it costs 3 (awkward with Vial if all the rest cost 2) and it can be countered, unless you named Construct with Cavern.
Other cards could be good, too. But if you look at the rational of the above arguments, I doubt there are much other Slivers you will want to play in the main deck. That is, if you’re interested in building a competitive deck, like I am. Goal is to win game 1 all the time with a deck that is explosive, evasive and hard to interact with. That leaves us 2 games to win another one with the help of the SB.If anyone has better ideas for these flex spots, by all means, share them with us.
A note about Sidewinder Sliver : I played it in my main deck, but will switch it to full playset of Striking Sliver for the future. Flanking is hard to manage right, and easy to get around for the opponent. It is also *impossible* to trick opponent with it (playing it with Vial at instant speed after blockers are declared won’t trigger it). First Strike can be a nice ambush (T2 lord + instant speed Striking = 4 power with First Strike to block with) and make blocking very easy (gang up and enjoy).
Also, you can see that I only played 3 Sinew Sliver in my list. The only reason why is because it is sold out everywhere in my region. I’ll have to order it from elsewhere.