Hi guys. I'm a T&N veteran - several years and thousands of matches played. Once my LGS closed because of COVID-19 I decided to go online. I moved from Xmage to MTGO. I hate the fact I had to buy my deck a second time but the community and atmosphere is great there. Currently I'm in the process of creating a Tooth & Nail guide. I will post it somewhere in about 2-3 weeks and let you know.
First and foremost, I'm fairly convinced that Tooth and Nail is a dead card now. Ikoria just released a smattering of new cards that all threaten to do the same thing as Tooth and Nail, only better, so there seems to be little reason to pursue ramping into Tooth and Nail at this point.
Voyaging Satyr vs. Kiora's Follower is the far more important question.
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Gilded Goose is reasonable. Only to sacrifice a Token feels like a "One Shot". Was that ever a problem for you?
I really like Panglacial Wurm as a hidden card "in hand". And i hate it if i'm drawing it.
And a rethorical one. If you already play blue, there is little reason to play Satyr over Follower.
2 power is relevant sometimes.
Untapping a creature after attacking matters and I can confrim this - I played Follower before Llanowar Tribe has been printed.
Xenagos gives it +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.
Plauge Engineer naming druid (both Arbor Elf and Voyaging Satyr are druids).
In merfolk match up Lord of Atlantis gives it +1/+1 and islandwalk.
Additionally he kills Phantasmal Image in match up against Humans.
Reasons against it are mainly life loss inflicted by fetching untapped Breeding Pool and interaction with rarely played Spellskite.
About playing it alongside Llanowar Tribe. Core of T&N ramp (not including planeswalkers) is 3 Birds, 4 Arbor Elves, 4 Utopia Sprawls and 4 Overgrowths. Adding 4 Tribes leaves no room for Kiora's Followers and vice versa. I remember playing both at some point and the synergy was there but eventually you have to ramp into something so less payoff slots, lesser probability.
Goose's inability to produce mana in consecutive early turns is very rarely a problem. Just watch it later single handedly fending off Gurmag Angler or whatever else.
Drawing Panglacial Wurm is annoying but despite that it is worth playing in the broader perspective.
On Escape to the Wilds:
Escape to the Wilds makes for card advantage while Command doesn't. It's obvious what to do with Primal Command when you're ahead. But what will you do when you're at a disadvantage and facing Liliana of the Veil backed by Tarmogoyf? Or experiencing mana / ramp shortage? Or just out of gas? A single command rarely helps.
There are only 4 slots for it and very few T&N decklists have full 4 for a reason. Command provides a solution when you have enough mana to play whatever has been tutored. If you can't it basically says "tutor, tickle then skip your turn". I've seen several T&N players playing Summoner's Pact for this reason. Search + bonus is used overwhelmingly more often than combination of non-tutoring modes. Pact allows you to first play a threat and then "skip" your turn.
The "You may play an additional land this turn" line on Escape to the Wilds is significant. Playing an exiled land and a 1 drop or playing 2 lands from your hand / exile or even some permanents when you cast it while still having some mana left furthers your mana development so you can cast something impactful either from hand or exile the next turn.
It's sometimes the case you exile T&N or Command and a big creature and have to choose what to cast becasue you only have mana for 1 big spell. Then you lose other cards (a situation where mana is limited). There are also situations where you would rather cast exiled ramp cards instead. You won't always play all of them but it's good enough.
It is better than Harmonize in this particular version of T&N (plan is to get a 3 drop ramp card on turn 2) because most often you still get value the same turn by playing a land and maybe a 1 drop. Harmonize skips the turn without immediate effect and loses to Narset's passive ability.
Converted mana cost matters only when facing a deck that answers literally everything you play early, like Jund with a good hand. In every other scenario Escape to the Wilds provides 2 more cards and has an immediate effect compared to Harmonize. Single red mana symbol comes nearly at no cost compared to Commune with Lava double red requirement, especially early. It's a ramp deck so it's not planning to cast Harmonize / Escape to the Wilds on turn 4 or turn 5. Difference between CMC 4 and 5 is much smaller compared to decks with no mana acceleration.
In Temur colors at 4 mana there is Drawn from Dreams which I liked a lot (and big Kiora obviously). Unfortunately I tested it before I started playing Llanowar Tribe. It has double blue in its cost and Tribe doesn't like other colors that much but I think mana base can be adjusted to handle it - Flooded Grove and less utility lands. I touched the topic of Llanowar Tribe so I will share my thoughts on ramping with small Kiora. Decent survivalibity but minimal impact and low efficiency. Passive almost never triggers. I end up siding her out most of the time. Even though CMC of 3 fits the plan I still prefer Garruk.
A side note on CMC 4 and 5. I experimented with Magus of the Vineyard alongside Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl to maximize chance of getting 4 mana on turn 2. Conclusion is that only playing a planeswalker was impactful enough to justify it. Unfortunately Garruk and big Kiora aren't the powerhouses that take over the game quickly on their own in T&N. Maybe another 4 mana planeswalker could change thigs around. I haven't tested small Karn in this set up.
Uejgo is playing Time Warp even for that is at worst +1card + 1 land and at best +1 combat phase and can be for your opponent an unforseen lethal damage.
Uegjo has a fetish on Time Warp, he has been playing 1-of since Temur T&N became a thing for reasons unknown to me. At worst it's : draw a card (not always +1 card, +1 land). At best? I don't know but absolutely not +1 combat phase. I can somewhat justify Time Warp in 4 situations:
when ahead on board and actually threatening life total which is not a plan T&N is really equipped to implement. It's rather a byproduct plan emerging when opponent is careless with fetching or combat. Having unanswered big creature would be an advantage in itself. One more turn would be mostly a win more effect.
chaining it with Eternal Witness. Powerful but inconsistent.
playing it with multiple planeswalkers out is probably the most profitable way of spending 5 mana. Single planeswalkers are very underwhelming: {Kiora, +1 into Time Warp, -2} or {Garruk, +1 into Time Warp, -1} (Ulting Garruk next turn could actually be a thing).
But Garruk / Kiora / Nissa, +1, another unique planeswalker, +1 into Time Warp opens a lot of possibilities next turn. It's rather naive to think of scenario where you use planeswalker's non-ramp ability and cast Time Warp the same turn.
experiencing mana deficiency and using it to "ramp". Although Castle Garenbirg partially solves this problem there are situations where taking extra turn can be relevant. For example T&N in hand and: T1 land + Birds, T2 land + Overgrowth, T3 Garruk + Time Warp, T4 win.
Even all of these combined don't convince me Time Warp is a viable card in T&N. But you can play whatever you like and no one can take fun of doing so away from you.
I still am on (...) Ulamog, and Oko as slower/grindy win-cons... but Karn and Ulamog are quite similar in the sense that you are ramping to 10 to cast your “I Win” card.
What I've noticed is that Ulamog overshadows Walking Ballista (and Dragonlord Atarka for that matter) as a removal and as a win condition. Ballista for 10 mana is just a 5/5 and shirnks when pinging. Ulamog wins the game on the spot most of the time. Castle Garenbrig is great with high CMC creatures. Even Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra benefit from it. Seems like they are the popular plan now - no list has Hornet Queen - just get X as high as possible (also X on Kessig). Unbound Flourishing comes to mind.
How has Oko, Thief of Crowns been doing for you? It's possible to play it in Temur T&N but I'm currently testing green-red version so feedback and your experience with it would be helpful and appreciated.
Temur tends to be the dominating color combination (to play Kiora, Master of the Depths) but I wonder. 3 decklists include Kiora's Follower but none Llanowar Tribe. This surprised me greatly because in T&N Overgrowth was probably the most efficent ramp card. Tribe is even better and offers redundancy (think about Neoform and Eldritch Evolution). Personally I play T&N almost exclusively regularly. 4 Overgrowths and 4 Llanowar Tribes is the bread and butter of this deck. It's the glue that hold the deck togheter. I have no idea why isn't tribe played more. Follower adds mere 1 mana if there are no auras compared to Tribe. Even the synergy with big Kiora is there. Also 3 devotion and a 3/3 body. Tribe is there to stay and "dies to Doom Blade" arguement doesn't hold. Yes, tribe dies to bolt but so does follower. Elves don't die to unrevolted Fatal Push, tho. The most likely reason is either players look at older lists and just go copy paste style or people are afraid to have their dork killed so they can't play tribe on turn 2. I see no other explaination. Tribe is crazy powerful in T&N. If there are T&N players reading this, could you explain the choice of Kiora's Follower over Llanowar Tribe?
Second thing Castle Garenbrig. This is the card T&N should play no matter what. It has practically no downside. Blood Moon? Ask opponent what he cares more about. Field of Ruin? Kessig is safe. Legendary? NO! I have yet to see a situation where it enters the battlefieldd tapped (except for Titan tutor of course) - I'm still talking about T&N, not devotion with 4 Nykthos. But the upside. My Lord... It's a ramp deck and this land produces 2 mana. With 5 mana available for Command there are no longer suboptimal choices of creatures. Titan can be cast off of Castle. 6 mana and Command into Hornet Queen. Every big creature directly benefits. Even when behind this land helps you get back into the game by casting big stuff. It even helps in pumping Ballista too. Nissa, Who Shakes the World let's you activate it twice in a single turn because it is a creature now. After testing I concluded 3 copies of Castle Garenbrig is the right number.
(On a side note Nissa, Who Shakes the World is far superior to Nissa, Worldwaker in T&N. Strict upgrade. One situation where she gets stuck in when you +1 on all your land and can't +1 again.)
Before T&N with blue became a thing I used to play Commune with Lava. I've tested Escape to the Wilds and I'm genuinely impressed. It's much stronger than CwL when played early (breaking point is 8 mana, X=6). Actually it matters a lot because CwL was lame early on (X and double red). There is no difference between sorcery and instant in this deck. It exiles cards making them safe from hand disruption. One red in casting cost is more impactful than it may seem (no need to name red on Utopia Sprawl makes a tirbe of happy elves). It allows to run less fetchlands too because red is only a splash now, not a main color. I can play only one fetchable red source - 1 Stopming Ground. Utopia Sprawl and bird dorks can provide red too.
If there was only 1 advantage I could highlight, it would be "You may play an additional land this turn". This was the effect Commune with Lava lacked. A blessing to have it, trust me. Play lands, play cheap spells afterwards, untap with mana to cast rest. I should point out that I play green-red version of T&N, no blue and this is the closest thing to big Kiora (she has to be played with at least 2 Eternal Witnesses imo but I'm down to 1). Now that I think about it, could it be that Temur T&N doesn't play Llanowar Tribe because it names blue on Utopia Sprawl? But it runs like 10 fetchlands so it can name green and put it on a Breeding Pool. Are 3 life points not worth it? I don't know and I want to.
(Only those who have ever played Commune with Lava in T&N and had to make a clutch play the same turn when there was a lot of mana available will know this overwhelming brainstorm. How much for X? How much mana to leave open? What is the card I want? How many copies of the card I want are left in the deck? Searching for T&N - dont get X too high because multiple parts of the combo can end up in exile. Playing Escape to the Wilds removes the ceiling and some skill expression but is relieving.)
To all who tested Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra. How have they been doing for you in Tooth and Nail shell or in devotion decks?
Here's some insight on creatures I tested if anyone's interested:
- Gilded Goose (instead of Birds of Paradise)
Breathtaking. Doesn't die to 1 damage effects - looking at you Wrenn and Six. Blocks 1/x dudes. Even if it dies on turn 1 it leaves a Food token behind. Birds leaves disappointment. It's a mana sink! 1 CMC mana ramp card that doubles as a mana sink. Nothing to play? Make a Food token, gain 3 life. It's surprising how relevant are those in stopping beatdown and stabilizing. The fact it makes mana of Food tokens is hardly ever a downside. In a hundred matches I playtested, Goose's inability to produce mana in consecutive early turns was noticable in just 3 games. Just 3. Years back I tried to find a way to gain life in T&N that was a nice addition and didn't consume a slot in my decklist. Sapseep Forest, a fetchable Forest, wasn't great even with all the untappers. It was a liability sometimes. With Eldraine out I tested Gingerbread Cabin and came to smimilar conclusion (insert a sad face when tutoring it with a Primeval Titan). Also (2-of) Fabled Passage in place of 2 fetchlands proved to be bad. Goose fulfilled my goal and fits the role of life gain perfectly. I even had to stop myself from cutting other 1 drops in it's favor. This wouldn't be wise. I highly recommend testing it in T&N.
- Panglacial Wurm
Combination of Llanowar Tribe, Castle Garenbrig, Arbor Elf and Overgrowth make this guy the winner of "best manland award". 9/5 trample, flash potentail lurking in every fetchland. That's far better than any manland could ever do in T&N. I've tested them all and absolutely none got even close to this lad. It's something to cast when heart of cards stopped beating just to give you something to beat opponents with. Even with Nissa, Who Shakes the World and Primeval Titan manlands underperform. There had to be like 4 Nissa and 4 Titans to make it work. Most notably, vast majority of manlands enter the battlefield tapped so they sometimes interrupt casting Overgrowth and Llanowar Tribe on turn 2. Basically he's just a thing to cast when hand is bad. Even with 6 fetchlands casting him is not a problem. It makes you value them more and saving them for when it counts, playing / using them as late as possible when you only have 1. Additionally Food tokens and less fetchlands make for a healthy life total.
- Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
In my last post I gave reason to why Terastodon was the best catch-(almost)-all answer. Then Castle Garenbrig happened. Little to say Ulamog is just better now. Bypasses countermagic in a way, doesn't leave tokens behind, Indestructible, exiles permanents and cards form libraries. It's also one of my favourite creatures so I take that You were onto something CurdBros when you started testing it alongside Once Upon a Time.
I like that list, but I was wondering, since you are looking for blue card selection, would Search for Azcanta fit in the deck? It's a proven tool that also ramps in the late game, the downside being that a creature-heavy deck doesn't utilize the backside's ability very well.
I'm not looking for blue card selection. I've tested every digging spell out there and found it. Those 2 in my list are far ahead of other.
Azcanta is teribble and dodesn't have a place in Devotion or T&N. Shortly, it's the downside you pointed out, inability to fill up graveyard in a resonable time and only few relevant targets (impactful planeswalker, Primal Command, Tooth and Nail).
How has Elderscale Wurm been for you? Thinking about picking one up.
Do so if you want a way to buy yourself time to combo off. There are many decks that have troubles bypassing it. Those with burn spells must dig to find enough direct damage to kill it and that takes many turns compared to 7 power trampler. There are also decks that run Path to Exile. (Peronally I despise this card. 1 mana, instant, unconditional, exiles and let's be real - no drawback unless it's used on turn 1). To the point. If they have it, they have it. Otherwise they must wait for it because it's most likely a creature based deck with very little card draw / selection (outside of UW control and let's call them Jeskai tempo decks). Opponent's creatures will probably be big enough to block the wurm and the board stagnates until they find removal or you combo.
I pondered which creature was most suitable for extending my expected durability. I decided to play Elderscale Wurm over platinum titans: Angel and Emperion. Emperion and wurm are better at what they do than Angel. Opponent has to first kill them and then me, order is reversed when playing Angel. Emperion prevents fetching but that wasn't a problem with mainboard Blood Moons. It is an issue in UG version because it makes fetchlands a dead card.
During time of RG T&N there was no Llanowar Tribe (so Overgrowth was more valuable) and there were mainboard Blood Moons. Naturally players sided in enchantment hate and some of it could also destroy artifacts and Platinums got hit by ricochete. I can be the case now too.
Story time: it was also time of Grafdigger's Cage popularity and people were sideboarding it in against me which of course didn't work against T&N but was stopping my sideboard Madcap Experiment combo. Another common threat was Kolaghan's Command. Some frustration has built up.
There are some situations of increased risk for the wurm (being below 7 life and for instance Skullcrack in response - wurm's trigger is classified as gainig life so you stay below 7 and wurm's second ability does nothing). For this reason I played a single Sapseep Forest in RG T&N. It is a Forest so it could be fetched and untapped by Arbor Elf and other untappers but nowadays creatures or generally aggro is too massive to care about recovering 3+ life a turn. It also comes into play tapped. Another interaction undermining the wurm is "lose life" effect, although not popular but still present (like Shaman of the Pack). Fetchlands also make you lose life so be sure not to fetch when at 7 without a way to gain life.
From perspective of UG T&N I prefer Elderscale Wurm. 3 devotion, trample, 1 less mana, functioning fetchlands for surprise, surprise and mana.
Eladamri's Call is still great, but I need to figure out what is the best suite of creatures, especially larger top-end creatures. None of the non-prime-time ones have been super impressive so far. World Breaker is a nice utility piece, but also doesn't put on as much pressure as I'd like for a 7-drop. Thragtusk has felt generally low-impact, Ruric Thar, the Unbowed too slow in matchups where I need him, and Gaea's Revenge is solid against grindy midrange decks but not the anti-UW control force I need him to be. As for the Cataclysmic Gearhulk, I haven't drawn it much. I used it once to great effect vs Elves, but I'm worried it's too hard to set it up so I don't get hurt too much by the symmetric effect.
Turn World Breaker into Terastodon. I wrote a paragraph on it. Change Thragtusk for Wurmcoil or move it to sideboard and name it Weather the Storm. No idea what to do with Ruric Thar, the Unbowed without blue (Glen Elendra Archmage and Negate). If you are in Naya colors Cataclysmic Gearhulk can be exchanged for Dragonlord Atarka or Caldera Hellion (Hellion can eat your dorks, get big and survive it's own ability).
Gaea's Revenge is a medicore anti UW control card. It doesn't have trample, it's immune to Kessig Wolf Run, dies to Snapcaster + Vendilion Clique / Timely Reinforcements. I prefer Carnage Tyrant because it has 1 more toughness, trample and costs 1 mana less. Panglacial Wurm is fine too because it can be cast at instant speed. Other than that I would suggest Fry... No, for real this time. The best would be Carnage Tyrant (be afraid of Settle the Wreckage - who though one sided instant speed wrath was a good design?), Eternal Witness and Veil of Summer (protects from counterspells, Vendilion Clique, targeted planeswalkers' abilities). With Eladamri's Call you can try Gaddock Teeg, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Grand Abolisher or go full Timmy with Akroma, Angel of Fury. Against control Hornet Queen is fine too. On a gameplay note - side out some dorks, they will Path your stuff a lot.
If you have any questions regarding T&N ask them now. I'm eager to discuss.
Greetings everyone. Recent sets introduced many new cards and as a T&N player I found some of them to greatly benefit this strategy so the brewing has begun. Decklist that proved to be most consistent is below along with some explanation.
First of all ramp. Cheap mix of creatures and auras are responsible for ramping because it's quick and very dangerous if left unaswered. Garruk is out of the game because Llanowar Tribe is just a cheaper Garruk. Intense testing brought me to conclution that although Primeval Titan is a great card, it's not the card that T&N wants. Use of Primeval Titan in other dedicated decks is much more focused. Here it just grabs 2 lands and those don't kill by themselves unlike in Valakut and Amulet. Moreover there are no lands powerful enough to change the state of the game when behind. It's easy to win when everything goes according to plan but it doesn't alwyas go as planned. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Kessig Wolf Run need a proper setup to work. Blast Zone was tested too with great results but during the transition to cheap ramp there are less universal untappers. It's much weaker because it's less likely to be charged and sacrificed during one turn. A little combo worth noting here was to cast Titan, tutor Nykthos and a bounce land, replay Nykthos and tap it for more mana (I used it two or three times, not really that relevant. Bouncelands had synergy with universal untappers and Tireless Trackers). I tried manlands but they were not impactful enough, all of them. Those lands are toys, not tools. When Titan ramps but there are no payoff cards and it gets killed, it most likely means game over. Thus there is no Primeval Titans in my list. The only regret I have is a gap left in CMCs at 5 and 6. Sometimes when tight on mana it would be convenient to be able to tutor something big with Primal Command and cast it next turn. Now it's Eternal Witness most of the time.
Alongside Titans I played Tireless Trackers. Great synergy, no doubts. They are much better than Harmonize - there's plenty of cards that have minor impact when in need of a payoff. Drawing a land and 2 ramp cards doesn't help at all. Tireless Tracker is a creature that turns excessive land drops into cards or more lands to fuel itself and it grows so even when luck is not on your side you still have a big growing creature. The problem I had with Trackers was that they were very polarized in their outcomes. If on the battlefield and there was no lands to be played it was as miserable as it could be - vanilla creature for 3 mana. Even situations where he created 1 or 2 Clue tokens were often unfavorable because roughly 2/3 of the deck is bad when on the mercy of topdeck. Being restrained on mana was rough because it was spent on drawing cards, not playing them.
Verdict: Titans won't be played and as a consequence Trackers are out too.
Back to the topic of manlands. What I relized was that without Titans they can't be fetched. The only land showing some promise was Frostwalk Bastion because it could block a big creature for 2 turns. Unfortunately it taps for colorless and Llanowar Tribe likes color a lot. My manland of choice is now Panglacial Wurm. Can be cast at instant speed, surprise blocker, threatening 9 power and available to cast with every fetchland or other search effect. That's like 9 manlands. Nobody expects it. With london mulligan if it's in opening hand just send it to the bottom.
The Big Elephant is here in place of every other creature that was destroying things. Unlike others it can destroy planeswalkers which is relevant. It says "up to three" so there is always freedom of choice in selecting number of targets. Very often destroying 1 land is barely relevant against most decks, but 3? That's a strong blow - denying access to colors or casting spells altogether creating 3 littlephants that will most likely trade with the big one. That's marvelous. In emergency it can be 18 power for 8 mana.
Why play blue at all if there are almost no blue cards in the deck? Shimmer of Possibility and Drawn from Dreams are new additions and are here for digging - solid card selection - luxury that green doesn't have. I've examined nearly every digging and drawing spell and those stood out above all the other. In T&N there is hardly any difference between instant and sorcery. They may seem expensive for an ordinary fair deck that plays 1 land a turn and wants to have as cheap spells as possible but in a ramp deck there is a lot more mana to spend so mana cost isn't as restricting. Those are the most effective and efficient tools that get you what you want. There is no restriction on what cards you can get. There is no restriction on what cards you can get. I said it twice because it's that relevant. Sideboard can now contain actual answers instead of semiviable creature replacements that need to be tutored. Oh, there are also Eternal Witnesses so yeah, make a connection between those and digging cards.
Glen Elendra Archmage is a card I like and if you don't think it's the best card in the deck you're the dumbest guy ever.
Llanowar Tribe is by far the best card in the deck. It's better than Overgrowth which are now reserve copies of it. Great thing to have 2 different cards that have similar effects. Those 2 together provide resilience and speed to ramping. Tribe is a creature that can do stuff creatures do, like attacking and blocking. Overgrowth has no such capabilities. 3 devotion is a wink towards Xenagos, unless devotion is high enough so he is a creature and dies to something before Emrakul gets haste. Hasn't happened to me yet. And lastly Tirbe can be untapped by both big Kiora and Kiora's Follower.
Sideboard could have some love just for UW control because it has become a tough matchup when it was swarmed with planeswalkers. Maybe Veil of Summer. On a side note I'm still wondering if Hydroid Krasis is reasonable. It has on cast trigger which is huge against control until you realize they play Narset, Parter of Veils. It may be decent enough against other decks though.
Format is too fast for Scavenging Ooze so there are Grafdigger's Cage instead. Rest of the sideboard is basic.
You wot mate? Talking shiet about T&N, huh? The Timmy Senior in his propeller hat is about to teach you a lesson. Take this:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2968721#paper
Decent start considering I started playing on MTGO just 2 weeks ago. Be patient. Guide is on the way.
Untapping a creature after attacking matters and I can confrim this - I played Follower before Llanowar Tribe has been printed.
Xenagos gives it +2/+2 instead of +1/+1.
Plauge Engineer naming druid (both Arbor Elf and Voyaging Satyr are druids).
In merfolk match up Lord of Atlantis gives it +1/+1 and islandwalk.
Additionally he kills Phantasmal Image in match up against Humans.
Reasons against it are mainly life loss inflicted by fetching untapped Breeding Pool and interaction with rarely played Spellskite.
About playing it alongside Llanowar Tribe. Core of T&N ramp (not including planeswalkers) is 3 Birds, 4 Arbor Elves, 4 Utopia Sprawls and 4 Overgrowths. Adding 4 Tribes leaves no room for Kiora's Followers and vice versa. I remember playing both at some point and the synergy was there but eventually you have to ramp into something so less payoff slots, lesser probability.
Drawing Panglacial Wurm is annoying but despite that it is worth playing in the broader perspective.
On Escape to the Wilds:
Escape to the Wilds makes for card advantage while Command doesn't. It's obvious what to do with Primal Command when you're ahead. But what will you do when you're at a disadvantage and facing Liliana of the Veil backed by Tarmogoyf? Or experiencing mana / ramp shortage? Or just out of gas? A single command rarely helps.
There are only 4 slots for it and very few T&N decklists have full 4 for a reason. Command provides a solution when you have enough mana to play whatever has been tutored. If you can't it basically says "tutor, tickle then skip your turn". I've seen several T&N players playing Summoner's Pact for this reason. Search + bonus is used overwhelmingly more often than combination of non-tutoring modes. Pact allows you to first play a threat and then "skip" your turn.
The "You may play an additional land this turn" line on Escape to the Wilds is significant. Playing an exiled land and a 1 drop or playing 2 lands from your hand / exile or even some permanents when you cast it while still having some mana left furthers your mana development so you can cast something impactful either from hand or exile the next turn.
It's sometimes the case you exile T&N or Command and a big creature and have to choose what to cast becasue you only have mana for 1 big spell. Then you lose other cards (a situation where mana is limited). There are also situations where you would rather cast exiled ramp cards instead. You won't always play all of them but it's good enough.
It is better than Harmonize in this particular version of T&N (plan is to get a 3 drop ramp card on turn 2) because most often you still get value the same turn by playing a land and maybe a 1 drop. Harmonize skips the turn without immediate effect and loses to Narset's passive ability.
Converted mana cost matters only when facing a deck that answers literally everything you play early, like Jund with a good hand. In every other scenario Escape to the Wilds provides 2 more cards and has an immediate effect compared to Harmonize. Single red mana symbol comes nearly at no cost compared to Commune with Lava double red requirement, especially early. It's a ramp deck so it's not planning to cast Harmonize / Escape to the Wilds on turn 4 or turn 5. Difference between CMC 4 and 5 is much smaller compared to decks with no mana acceleration.
In Temur colors at 4 mana there is Drawn from Dreams which I liked a lot (and big Kiora obviously). Unfortunately I tested it before I started playing Llanowar Tribe. It has double blue in its cost and Tribe doesn't like other colors that much but I think mana base can be adjusted to handle it - Flooded Grove and less utility lands. I touched the topic of Llanowar Tribe so I will share my thoughts on ramping with small Kiora. Decent survivalibity but minimal impact and low efficiency. Passive almost never triggers. I end up siding her out most of the time. Even though CMC of 3 fits the plan I still prefer Garruk.
A side note on CMC 4 and 5. I experimented with Magus of the Vineyard alongside Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl to maximize chance of getting 4 mana on turn 2. Conclusion is that only playing a planeswalker was impactful enough to justify it. Unfortunately Garruk and big Kiora aren't the powerhouses that take over the game quickly on their own in T&N. Maybe another 4 mana planeswalker could change thigs around. I haven't tested small Karn in this set up.
Uegjo has a fetish on Time Warp, he has been playing 1-of since Temur T&N became a thing for reasons unknown to me. At worst it's
- when ahead on board and actually threatening life total which is not a plan T&N is really equipped to implement. It's rather a byproduct plan emerging when opponent is careless with fetching or combat. Having unanswered big creature would be an advantage in itself. One more turn would be mostly a win more effect.
- chaining it with Eternal Witness. Powerful but inconsistent.
- playing it with multiple planeswalkers out is probably the most profitable way of spending 5 mana. Single planeswalkers are very underwhelming: {Kiora, +1 into Time Warp, -2} or {Garruk, +1 into Time Warp, -1} (Ulting Garruk next turn could actually be a thing).
But Garruk / Kiora / Nissa, +1, another unique planeswalker, +1 into Time Warp opens a lot of possibilities next turn. It's rather naive to think of scenario where you use planeswalker's non-ramp ability and cast Time Warp the same turn.
- experiencing mana deficiency and using it to "ramp". Although Castle Garenbirg partially solves this problem there are situations where taking extra turn can be relevant. For example T&N in hand and: T1 land + Birds, T2 land + Overgrowth, T3 Garruk + Time Warp, T4 win.
Even all of these combined don't convince me Time Warp is a viable card in T&N. But you can play whatever you like and no one can take fun of doing so away from you.What I've noticed is that Ulamog overshadows Walking Ballista (and Dragonlord Atarka for that matter) as a removal and as a win condition. Ballista for 10 mana is just a 5/5 and shirnks when pinging. Ulamog wins the game on the spot most of the time. Castle Garenbrig is great with high CMC creatures. Even Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra benefit from it. Seems like they are the popular plan now - no list has Hornet Queen - just get X as high as possible (also X on Kessig). Unbound Flourishing comes to mind.
How has Oko, Thief of Crowns been doing for you? It's possible to play it in Temur T&N but I'm currently testing green-red version so feedback and your experience with it would be helpful and appreciated.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=23109&d=358779&f=MO
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2287729#paper
Temur tends to be the dominating color combination (to play Kiora, Master of the Depths) but I wonder. 3 decklists include Kiora's Follower but none Llanowar Tribe. This surprised me greatly because in T&N Overgrowth was probably the most efficent ramp card. Tribe is even better and offers redundancy (think about Neoform and Eldritch Evolution). Personally I play T&N almost exclusively regularly. 4 Overgrowths and 4 Llanowar Tribes is the bread and butter of this deck. It's the glue that hold the deck togheter. I have no idea why isn't tribe played more. Follower adds mere 1 mana if there are no auras compared to Tribe. Even the synergy with big Kiora is there. Also 3 devotion and a 3/3 body. Tribe is there to stay and "dies to Doom Blade" arguement doesn't hold. Yes, tribe dies to bolt but so does follower. Elves don't die to unrevolted Fatal Push, tho. The most likely reason is either players look at older lists and just go copy paste style or people are afraid to have their dork killed so they can't play tribe on turn 2. I see no other explaination. Tribe is crazy powerful in T&N. If there are T&N players reading this, could you explain the choice of Kiora's Follower over Llanowar Tribe?
Second thing Castle Garenbrig. This is the card T&N should play no matter what. It has practically no downside. Blood Moon? Ask opponent what he cares more about. Field of Ruin? Kessig is safe. Legendary? NO! I have yet to see a situation where it enters the battlefieldd tapped (except for Titan tutor of course) - I'm still talking about T&N, not devotion with 4 Nykthos. But the upside. My Lord... It's a ramp deck and this land produces 2 mana. With 5 mana available for Command there are no longer suboptimal choices of creatures. Titan can be cast off of Castle. 6 mana and Command into Hornet Queen. Every big creature directly benefits. Even when behind this land helps you get back into the game by casting big stuff. It even helps in pumping Ballista too. Nissa, Who Shakes the World let's you activate it twice in a single turn because it is a creature now. After testing I concluded 3 copies of Castle Garenbrig is the right number.
(On a side note Nissa, Who Shakes the World is far superior to Nissa, Worldwaker in T&N. Strict upgrade. One situation where she gets stuck in when you +1 on all your land and can't +1 again.)
Before T&N with blue became a thing I used to play Commune with Lava. I've tested Escape to the Wilds and I'm genuinely impressed. It's much stronger than CwL when played early (breaking point is 8 mana, X=6). Actually it matters a lot because CwL was lame early on (X and double red). There is no difference between sorcery and instant in this deck. It exiles cards making them safe from hand disruption. One red in casting cost is more impactful than it may seem (no need to name red on Utopia Sprawl makes a tirbe of happy elves). It allows to run less fetchlands too because red is only a splash now, not a main color. I can play only one fetchable red source - 1 Stopming Ground. Utopia Sprawl and bird dorks can provide red too.
If there was only 1 advantage I could highlight, it would be "You may play an additional land this turn". This was the effect Commune with Lava lacked. A blessing to have it, trust me. Play lands, play cheap spells afterwards, untap with mana to cast rest. I should point out that I play green-red version of T&N, no blue and this is the closest thing to big Kiora (she has to be played with at least 2 Eternal Witnesses imo but I'm down to 1). Now that I think about it, could it be that Temur T&N doesn't play Llanowar Tribe because it names blue on Utopia Sprawl? But it runs like 10 fetchlands so it can name green and put it on a Breeding Pool. Are 3 life points not worth it? I don't know and I want to.
(Only those who have ever played Commune with Lava in T&N and had to make a clutch play the same turn when there was a lot of mana available will know this overwhelming brainstorm. How much for X? How much mana to leave open? What is the card I want? How many copies of the card I want are left in the deck? Searching for T&N - dont get X too high because multiple parts of the combo can end up in exile. Playing Escape to the Wilds removes the ceiling and some skill expression but is relieving.)
To all who tested Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra. How have they been doing for you in Tooth and Nail shell or in devotion decks?
Here's some insight on creatures I tested if anyone's interested:
- Gilded Goose (instead of Birds of Paradise)
Breathtaking. Doesn't die to 1 damage effects - looking at you Wrenn and Six. Blocks 1/x dudes. Even if it dies on turn 1 it leaves a Food token behind. Birds leaves disappointment. It's a mana sink! 1 CMC mana ramp card that doubles as a mana sink. Nothing to play? Make a Food token, gain 3 life. It's surprising how relevant are those in stopping beatdown and stabilizing. The fact it makes mana of Food tokens is hardly ever a downside. In a hundred matches I playtested, Goose's inability to produce mana in consecutive early turns was noticable in just 3 games. Just 3. Years back I tried to find a way to gain life in T&N that was a nice addition and didn't consume a slot in my decklist. Sapseep Forest, a fetchable Forest, wasn't great even with all the untappers. It was a liability sometimes. With Eldraine out I tested Gingerbread Cabin and came to smimilar conclusion (insert a sad face when tutoring it with a Primeval Titan). Also (2-of) Fabled Passage in place of 2 fetchlands proved to be bad. Goose fulfilled my goal and fits the role of life gain perfectly. I even had to stop myself from cutting other 1 drops in it's favor. This wouldn't be wise. I highly recommend testing it in T&N.
- Panglacial Wurm
Combination of Llanowar Tribe, Castle Garenbrig, Arbor Elf and Overgrowth make this guy the winner of "best manland award". 9/5 trample, flash potentail lurking in every fetchland. That's far better than any manland could ever do in T&N. I've tested them all and absolutely none got even close to this lad. It's something to cast when heart of cards stopped beating just to give you something to beat opponents with. Even with Nissa, Who Shakes the World and Primeval Titan manlands underperform. There had to be like 4 Nissa and 4 Titans to make it work. Most notably, vast majority of manlands enter the battlefield tapped so they sometimes interrupt casting Overgrowth and Llanowar Tribe on turn 2. Basically he's just a thing to cast when hand is bad. Even with 6 fetchlands casting him is not a problem. It makes you value them more and saving them for when it counts, playing / using them as late as possible when you only have 1. Additionally Food tokens and less fetchlands make for a healthy life total.
- Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
In my last post I gave reason to why Terastodon was the best catch-(almost)-all answer. Then Castle Garenbrig happened. Little to say Ulamog is just better now. Bypasses countermagic in a way, doesn't leave tokens behind, Indestructible, exiles permanents and cards form libraries. It's also one of my favourite creatures so I take that
For anyone who's interested here's my decklist.
1 Stomping Ground
9 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
3 Castle Garenbrig
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Gilded Goose
4 Arbor Elf
4 Overgrowth
4 Llanowar Tribe
2 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner (to replace)
2 Nissa, Who Shakes the World
1 Thragtusk
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Primeval Titan
1 Hornet Queen
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Primal Command
2 Escape to the Wilds
3 Tooth and Nail
To all the T&N players out there. Share your thoughts, give some insight. I know you are here. Would love to hear about Kiora's Follower vs Llanowar Tribe, Hydroid Krasis and Voracious Hydra and generally anything T&N related.
Azcanta is teribble and dodesn't have a place in Devotion or T&N. Shortly, it's the downside you pointed out, inability to fill up graveyard in a resonable time and only few relevant targets (impactful planeswalker, Primal Command, Tooth and Nail).
Do so if you want a way to buy yourself time to combo off. There are many decks that have troubles bypassing it. Those with burn spells must dig to find enough direct damage to kill it and that takes many turns compared to 7 power trampler. There are also decks that run Path to Exile. (Peronally I despise this card. 1 mana, instant, unconditional, exiles and let's be real - no drawback unless it's used on turn 1). To the point. If they have it, they have it. Otherwise they must wait for it because it's most likely a creature based deck with very little card draw / selection (outside of UW control and let's call them Jeskai tempo decks). Opponent's creatures will probably be big enough to block the wurm and the board stagnates until they find removal or you combo.
I pondered which creature was most suitable for extending my expected durability. I decided to play Elderscale Wurm over platinum titans: Angel and Emperion. Emperion and wurm are better at what they do than Angel. Opponent has to first kill them and then me, order is reversed when playing Angel. Emperion prevents fetching but that wasn't a problem with mainboard Blood Moons. It is an issue in UG version because it makes fetchlands a dead card.
During time of RG T&N there was no Llanowar Tribe (so Overgrowth was more valuable) and there were mainboard Blood Moons. Naturally players sided in enchantment hate and some of it could also destroy artifacts and Platinums got hit by ricochete. I can be the case now too.
Story time: it was also time of Grafdigger's Cage popularity and people were sideboarding it in against me which of course didn't work against T&N but was stopping my sideboard Madcap Experiment combo. Another common threat was Kolaghan's Command. Some frustration has built up.
There are some situations of increased risk for the wurm (being below 7 life and for instance Skullcrack in response - wurm's trigger is classified as gainig life so you stay below 7 and wurm's second ability does nothing). For this reason I played a single Sapseep Forest in RG T&N. It is a Forest so it could be fetched and untapped by Arbor Elf and other untappers but nowadays creatures or generally aggro is too massive to care about recovering 3+ life a turn. It also comes into play tapped. Another interaction undermining the wurm is "lose life" effect, although not popular but still present (like Shaman of the Pack). Fetchlands also make you lose life so be sure not to fetch when at 7 without a way to gain life.
From perspective of UG T&N I prefer Elderscale Wurm. 3 devotion, trample, 1 less mana, functioning fetchlands for surprise, surprise and mana.
Turn World Breaker into Terastodon. I wrote a paragraph on it. Change Thragtusk for Wurmcoil or move it to sideboard and name it Weather the Storm. No idea what to do with Ruric Thar, the Unbowed without blue (Glen Elendra Archmage and Negate). If you are in Naya colors Cataclysmic Gearhulk can be exchanged for Dragonlord Atarka or Caldera Hellion (Hellion can eat your dorks, get big and survive it's own ability).
Gaea's Revenge is a medicore anti UW control card. It doesn't have trample, it's immune to Kessig Wolf Run, dies to Snapcaster + Vendilion Clique / Timely Reinforcements. I prefer Carnage Tyrant because it has 1 more toughness, trample and costs 1 mana less. Panglacial Wurm is fine too because it can be cast at instant speed. Other than that I would suggest Fry... No, for real this time. The best would be Carnage Tyrant (be afraid of Settle the Wreckage - who though one sided instant speed wrath was a good design?), Eternal Witness and Veil of Summer (protects from counterspells, Vendilion Clique, targeted planeswalkers' abilities). With Eladamri's Call you can try Gaddock Teeg, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Grand Abolisher or go full Timmy with Akroma, Angel of Fury. Against control Hornet Queen is fine too. On a gameplay note - side out some dorks, they will Path your stuff a lot.
If you have any questions regarding T&N ask them now. I'm eager to discuss.
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
2 Breeding Pool
8 Forest
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Kiora's Follower
4 Llanowar Tribe
3 Overgrowth
2 Kiora, Master of the Depths
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Hornet Queen
1 Panglacial Wurm
1 Terastodon
1 Walking Ballista
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Shimmer of Possibility
1 Drawn from Dreams
3 Primal Command
3 Tooth and Nail
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Carnage Tyrant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Trinisphere
2 Weather the Storm
2 Negate
1 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Grafdigger's Cage
First of all ramp. Cheap mix of creatures and auras are responsible for ramping because it's quick and very dangerous if left unaswered. Garruk is out of the game because Llanowar Tribe is just a cheaper Garruk. Intense testing brought me to conclution that although Primeval Titan is a great card, it's not the card that T&N wants. Use of Primeval Titan in other dedicated decks is much more focused. Here it just grabs 2 lands and those don't kill by themselves unlike in Valakut and Amulet. Moreover there are no lands powerful enough to change the state of the game when behind. It's easy to win when everything goes according to plan but it doesn't alwyas go as planned. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Kessig Wolf Run need a proper setup to work. Blast Zone was tested too with great results but during the transition to cheap ramp there are less universal untappers. It's much weaker because it's less likely to be charged and sacrificed during one turn. A little combo worth noting here was to cast Titan, tutor Nykthos and a bounce land, replay Nykthos and tap it for more mana (I used it two or three times, not really that relevant. Bouncelands had synergy with universal untappers and Tireless Trackers). I tried manlands but they were not impactful enough, all of them. Those lands are toys, not tools. When Titan ramps but there are no payoff cards and it gets killed, it most likely means game over. Thus there is no Primeval Titans in my list. The only regret I have is a gap left in CMCs at 5 and 6. Sometimes when tight on mana it would be convenient to be able to tutor something big with Primal Command and cast it next turn. Now it's Eternal Witness most of the time.
Alongside Titans I played Tireless Trackers. Great synergy, no doubts. They are much better than Harmonize - there's plenty of cards that have minor impact when in need of a payoff. Drawing a land and 2 ramp cards doesn't help at all. Tireless Tracker is a creature that turns excessive land drops into cards or more lands to fuel itself and it grows so even when luck is not on your side you still have a big growing creature. The problem I had with Trackers was that they were very polarized in their outcomes. If on the battlefield and there was no lands to be played it was as miserable as it could be - vanilla creature for 3 mana. Even situations where he created 1 or 2 Clue tokens were often unfavorable because roughly 2/3 of the deck is bad when on the mercy of topdeck. Being restrained on mana was rough because it was spent on drawing cards, not playing them.
Verdict: Titans won't be played and as a consequence Trackers are out too.
Back to the topic of manlands. What I relized was that without Titans they can't be fetched. The only land showing some promise was Frostwalk Bastion because it could block a big creature for 2 turns. Unfortunately it taps for colorless and Llanowar Tribe likes color a lot. My manland of choice is now Panglacial Wurm. Can be cast at instant speed, surprise blocker, threatening 9 power and available to cast with every fetchland or other search effect. That's like 9 manlands. Nobody expects it. With london mulligan if it's in opening hand just send it to the bottom.
The Big Elephant is here in place of every other creature that was destroying things. Unlike others it can destroy planeswalkers which is relevant. It says "up to three" so there is always freedom of choice in selecting number of targets. Very often destroying 1 land is barely relevant against most decks, but 3? That's a strong blow - denying access to colors or casting spells altogether creating 3 littlephants that will most likely trade with the big one. That's marvelous. In emergency it can be 18 power for 8 mana.
Why play blue at all if there are almost no blue cards in the deck? Shimmer of Possibility and Drawn from Dreams are new additions and are here for digging - solid card selection - luxury that green doesn't have. I've examined nearly every digging and drawing spell and those stood out above all the other. In T&N there is hardly any difference between instant and sorcery. They may seem expensive for an ordinary fair deck that plays 1 land a turn and wants to have as cheap spells as possible but in a ramp deck there is a lot more mana to spend so mana cost isn't as restricting. Those are the most effective and efficient tools that get you what you want. There is no restriction on what cards you can get. There is no restriction on what cards you can get. I said it twice because it's that relevant. Sideboard can now contain actual answers instead of semiviable creature replacements that need to be tutored. Oh, there are also Eternal Witnesses so yeah, make a connection between those and digging cards.
Glen Elendra Archmage is a card I like and if you don't think it's the best card in the deck you're the dumbest guy ever.
Llanowar Tribe is by far the best card in the deck. It's better than Overgrowth which are now reserve copies of it. Great thing to have 2 different cards that have similar effects. Those 2 together provide resilience and speed to ramping. Tribe is a creature that can do stuff creatures do, like attacking and blocking. Overgrowth has no such capabilities. 3 devotion is a wink towards Xenagos, unless devotion is high enough so he is a creature and dies to something before Emrakul gets haste. Hasn't happened to me yet. And lastly Tirbe can be untapped by both big Kiora and Kiora's Follower.
Sideboard could have some love just for UW control because it has become a tough matchup when it was swarmed with planeswalkers. Maybe Veil of Summer. On a side note I'm still wondering if Hydroid Krasis is reasonable. It has on cast trigger which is huge against control until you realize they play Narset, Parter of Veils. It may be decent enough against other decks though.
Format is too fast for Scavenging Ooze so there are Grafdigger's Cage instead. Rest of the sideboard is basic.
Edit: Typos