Swiftspear hitting for 7 or 8? What meta are you playing in?!
Sounds like perfect hand/draw scenario world. Like when you goldfish a few games.
Pick one. Legacy's or Modern's. The only perfect hand/draw scenario you need here is that you draw the Swiftspear in your intial hand. Your opponent will clearly have plenty of answers in between, but even if he drops a creature turn 2 or 3, you're still swinging with a 3/4 or 4/5 Swiftspear and they'll be forced to block. The deck is simply designed that way. More than half of all your burn spells are single mana spells. You'll draw more than plenty to pump it. And if you don't then it won't make a difference since you'll likely have drawn the Eidolon anyway. It's just how deadly the Swistspear can be in your initial hand when it can regularly hit for 7 or 8 in those early turns. Really no different than playing another Goblin. You even find yourself playing Swiptspear before Goblin. That's just the way the deck runs.
It just never works out that way. Generally you attack for 1 on turn 1. Turn 2 at best you hit for 3. After that it's either dead or dealing with something bigger and badder. In burn you tend to run out of spells. I can't ever see you going off with 6 spells to make this hit for 7. Or 5 to hit for 6, or 4 to hit for 5. You just don't have the card draw to have all of these spells to cast. Would be much more likely in a UR shell.
By turn 2 your opponent is down to 10 by your own math and you've only played half your hand. That's pretty common with the Swiftspear. You're not beating the odds on that one. You're right that by turn 3 your opponent already has an answer, but he's now half his life short and you still have a slew of spells to play with. Drop the Eidolon and it's game over.
Swiftspear hitting for 7 or 8? What meta are you playing in?!
Sounds like perfect hand/draw scenario world. Like when you goldfish a few games.
Pick one. Legacy's or Modern's. The only perfect hand/draw scenario you need here is that you draw the Swiftspear in your intial hand. Your opponent will clearly have plenty of answers in between, but even if he drops a creature turn 2 or 3, you're still swinging with a 3/4 or 4/5 Swiftspear and they'll be forced to block. The deck is simply designed that way. More than half of all your burn spells are single mana spells. You'll draw more than plenty to pump it. And if you don't then it won't make a difference since you'll likely have drawn the Eidolon anyway. It's just how deadly the Swistspear can be in your initial hand when it can regularly hit for 7 or 8 in those early turns. Really no different than playing another Goblin. You even find yourself playing Swiptspear before Goblin. That's just the way the deck runs.
The common thinking is that if burn can't win by turn 4 then it won't win at all. Exquisite Firecraft allows you to win turn 5 and take the game deep. That's pretty much what it does. Instead of taking the risk of sacrificing land to Fireblast and be countered, which usually ends badly, Firecraft can wait another turn. And with only two of them, you'll drain half his life. Your opponent can cantrip all he wants. You already know he's dead. It's what makes it a great finisher. Players love to accomodate cards like Grim Lavamancer that look great on paper and once in a while they win a game or two, but burn is going nowhere with the Lavamancer. It's too slow and too high maintenance. I think burn just needs to play it straight and main deck cards like Firecraft so you don't fall behind against control and you can win those easy matches, especially in a meta completely dominated by Delver.
lol... I don't fall in to that category that believes that burn wins by turn 4 or bust.
Why a 3 mana spell is usually bad? If you consider a one card per turn draw, without cantrips (or other such help), that an opening hand must have at least 2 lands and then we assume that the next 3 draws (hopefully on turn 3) is a land card. Otherwise, you're stuck holding a 3 mana spell. In a casual game, you can afford a two land holdout for a few turn. But in a tournament setting, where winning is important, you cannot afford to take that risk.
Searing Blaze is great against Delver too, so you easily cruise by it, but it has a clear cut drawback. It can become a dead card in your hand against the wrong deck, and you're already taking that same risk with Price of Progress. Progress is still worth enough to main deck. Blaze is better off as a sideboard.
wow... Searing cards have a good number of targets, not just delver. You have more targets with searing cards then you would have with Price of Progress, especially if you consider the high cost of dual lands.
The reasons why a good number of players move away from searing cards, it's two mana and hard to maneuver with swiftspear, especially if you play swiftspear on turn 2.
On the other hand, swiftspear is a bad burn card because half the deck don't make swiftspear grow! And there are cards you're not going to cast just to make swiftspear grow (such as an early turn fireblast or Price of Progress)... I don't play swiftspear... but I understand why players like it, it can become a heavy hitter... but then again to make swiftspear a heavy hitter you not playing Eidolon.
Swiftspear? There's Lighning Bolt, Chain Lighning and Lava Spike all which will consistently pump it up big real fast. Rift Bolt is less quick but just as effective. You'll draw plenty of those all the time. Swiftspear will potentially hit for 7 or 8 by turn 3, plus all those spells you've already shot you can turn it into an easy 3 turn kill. That's massive damage very quickly. Even more than Goblin Guide. Goblin is less conditioned, but Swiftpear will hit for more. If you're hitting for all that damage then Eidolon can always wait another turn. In fact, you'll probably won't even need it. There's no point in pinning your opponent down that quickly when you're already doing massive damage anyway.
Searing Blaze is insanely good. It wins games. I guess it's just a matter of taking the risk against combo. You can always grab it from the sideboard and finish the match with it just to play it safe. But the card is so good that I can't disagree with you there.
As for the 3 mana spell, I can't agree more. Still it's common for burn to open at least a spot for a 3 mana spell. It used to be Sulfuric Vortex, and Ensnaring Bridge remains a popular sideboard. If the card creates a winning condition that's too good to pass up, then I think the deck can afford it. And you still need that extra land to win. If you get mana screwed with only 2 lands, you're still a long way from winning. You can survive an extra turn or two, but you'll still need the land.
It's the deck that made the semifinals at the Grand Prix in Atlanta last month. It has no self damage. Great to see the deck make it that far at a Grand Prix of all tourneys. Eidolon of the Great Revel is way too dominant not to play, but also the fact that the deck won't lose life fetching lands makes all the difference in the world. It's an extra spell or two you're able to play against the Eidolon. Exquisite Firecraft is deadly hitting for four late game no matter what. One of the most underrated cards in Magic right now. It can't be understated how huge the counterspell hate is for burn, which has been historically weak against control. Just a solid finisher both in Legacy and Modern. Add Price of Progress hitting cleanly for six or eight or even ten, plus Fireblast. Real potential for raising the deck to a top tier.
Interesting, Exquisite Firecraft was a good card when countertop was a deck. Nice to see it make a showing, but I'm not sure how long that will last. Usually, Searing blaze/blood is in that spot, and there is a good number of targets for those cards.
The common thinking is that if burn can't win by turn 4 then it won't win at all. Exquisite Firecraft allows you to win turn 5 and take the game deep. That's pretty much what it does. Instead of taking the risk of sacrificing land to Fireblast and be countered, which usually ends badly, Firecraft can wait another turn. And with only two of them, you'll drain half his life. Your opponent can cantrip all he wants. You already know he's dead. It's what makes it a great finisher. Players love to accomodate cards like Grim Lavamancer that look great on paper and once in a while they win a game or two, but burn is going nowhere with the Lavamancer. It's too slow and too high maintenance. I think burn just needs to play it straight and main deck cards like Firecraft so you don't fall behind against control and you can win those easy matches, especially in a meta completely dominated by Delver.
Searing Blaze is great against Delver too, so you easily cruise by it, but it has a clear cut drawback. It can become a dead card in your hand against the wrong deck, and you're already taking that same risk with Price of Progress. Progress is still worth enough to main deck. Blaze is better off as a sideboard.
It's the deck that made the semifinals at the Grand Prix in Atlanta last month. It has no self damage. Great to see the deck make it that far at a Grand Prix of all tourneys. Eidolon of the Great Revel is way too dominant not to play, but also the fact that the deck won't lose life fetching lands makes all the difference in the world. It's an extra spell or two you're able to play against the Eidolon. Exquisite Firecraft is deadly hitting for four late game no matter what. One of the most underrated cards in Magic right now. It can't be understated how huge the counterspell hate is for burn, which has been historically weak against control. Just a solid finisher both in Legacy and Modern. Add Price of Progress hitting cleanly for six or eight or even ten, plus Fireblast. Real potential for raising the deck to a top tier.
The shop can ban cards and still sanction the tournament as a "casual" event, but they cannot sanction if they allow proxies.
Wow. That's...unfortunate. Is that official WotC policy? Or whatever organization runs and sanctions MtG events.
WotC did unban Stoneforge Mystic recently, so it appears that their focus is in fixing Modern first and make it as strong as Legacy was a decade ago. That being said Legacy and Modern go hand in hand. It's already too popular and iconic to be left relegated next to Vintage. The problem may turn out to be not an issue of card pricing alone, but players just crying about Plainwalker points. The format is pretty much rigged as it is right now. Because it's better to play against 200 players instead of playing against 1,500, which is what Legacy tourneys used to draw at their peak. The Reserve list pretty keeps these oldies from having their rankings virtually wiped out. They're popular in their own tiny circuits obviously. But flaunting decks that are worth up to four grand each with complete knowledge that they're out of most players' price range is completely obscene, and clearly puts WotC in a very bad light. Because it's a well known open secret that these players are doing what they're doing.
I own a mint Black Lotus, and I wouldn't be remotely worried about the card taking a hit. On the contrary I can only see it rising in value because the game would be far more exposed to millions of casual players who would see why the card is the holy grail of Magic. Legacy is by far the most challenging format the game has to offer. It has insanely powerful decks in the most extensive meta with limitless deck building strategy, and it's pretty straight forward so that it doesn't require proxies. Players don't mind paying up for cards like Wasteland because they usually fit in certain type of decks with very specific trategies. But when it comes to dual lands, 100% of all multicolored decks need them. Without the dual lands, there is no Legacy. I can't think of a reason why WotC wouldn't want to reprint those lands as mythic rares and open the floodgates for millions of younger players who are dying to play the format.
I think you nailed it here. I don't think it's that there's a lack of interest in the format at all; it's just that it's financially, and ultimately physically, inaccessible.
I'm sure the interest is there. But the means to fill that interest, unfortunately, is not.
It also dilutes the overall competition of the game since all you have are a bunch of old rich momma's dudes playing with fancy decks, all who can easily be beaten by any younger player who doesn't have the money to build them. Magic in many ways is like a modern day version of chess. The younger the player the likelier it is for him to make a modest income out of playing tournaments. Now all you see are a bunch of old loserish card collectors trying to manipulate card prices with some bizarre online Magic stock market graph that doesn't say absolutely anything about the card's real value. I'm happy to see my old Alpha Beta collection skyrocket in value, but WotC needs to end this phony charade and allow the younger generations to enjoy the game the way it's supposed to.
I'd frankly be 200% okay with the value of my duals, forces, and other "staples" taking hits if it meant more people were in the format I loved.
I'll be playing it anyways because it's simply the format I enjoy the most, but I definitely miss the days of people dropping into the old development threads almost on a daily basis, looking for where to get started and how.
I see WoTC's stance towards Legacy very similar to how Nintendo views the competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Scene; indifferent. But 18 years after its release, the game still has a vibrant and huge competitive scene, because the community just didn't care that we didn't have official support. We just played the game and ran our own tournaments and even with the rise of the "eSports"-era that started within the past 3-4 years, there are still community-run events that regularly draw several hundred entrants and international competitors.
Obviously it's not a perfect parallel, as the physical means to play Legacy are a finite resource, whereas the Melee community still gets new controllers and such. But it still just comes down to a question of just playing what you love.
I own a mint Black Lotus, and I wouldn't be remotely worried about the card taking a hit. On the contrary I can only see it rising in value because the game would be far more exposed to millions of casual players who would see why the card is the holy grail of Magic. Legacy is by far the most challenging format the game has to offer. It has insanely powerful decks in the most extensive meta with limitless deck building strategy, and it's pretty straight forward so that it doesn't require proxies. Players don't mind paying up for cards like Wasteland because they usually fit in certain type of decks with very specific trategies. But when it comes to dual lands, 100% of all multicolored decks need them. Without the dual lands, there is no Legacy. I can't think of a reason why WotC wouldn't want to reprint those lands as mythic rares and open the floodgates for millions of younger players who are dying to play the format.
They could legalize the original Collector's Edition to make the dual lands more affordable and that way make the format more accessible to newer players. Collector's Ed dual lands sell for about $150 each. But as is, Legacy has become too criminally expensive to attract anything than the older hardcore players.
I've seen this argument before and all it really does is kick the can down the road. It's also an argument I've seen suggested from people who speculated on the gold borders with the idea that they will eventually become legal. For those speculators and investors there's only one thing worth saying about them and I'd get banned for it.
The only real problem is the incredibly high price of the dual lands, which can often make a deck's mana pool almost twice as expensive as the rest of the deck. And the fact is that the game still needs to maintain its popularity for those cards to keep rising in value. Taking the dual lands off the reserved list is the only thing the format needs. Cards like Lightning Bolt and Demonic Tutor continue to rise in value anyway, so everybody knows it's all crap. I'm guessing it'll happen at some point in the future once those white borders are impossible to find.
They could legalize the original Collector's Edition to make the dual lands more affordable and that way make the format more accessible to newer players. Collector's Ed dual lands sell for about $150 each. But as is, Legacy has become too criminally expensive to attract anything than the older hardcore players.
Ankh of Mishra just for starters. Assuming you're facing tempo more often than not. It would be moved out after the first game when facing combo. Or could be the other way around. I'd like to use a sideboard that can lock down combo even if it's not strictly a burn spell. Blood Moon comes to mind.
Eidolon of the Great Revel is a great play, but it takes away a noncreature spot I could use to pump the Monastery Swiftspear. Having it hit for three by the second turn is crucial, That's ten life I would have the opponent down by turn two, and a sure kill by turn three. Increasing the chances for a third turn kill is a must. By turn four things usually go downhill. A third turn Monastery Swiftspear combined with a regular spell and a Flame Rift can also hit for another ten, so that gives me another card that will increase the chances for a three turn win along with the Fireblast.
I've always loved playing the deck. To me the big problem with burn has always been that it inflicts too much cumulative self damage to be truly consistent in way. Cards like Sulfuric Vortex and Pyrostatic Pillar have always been hit or miss. And Grim Lavamancer relies too much on fetchlands which will drain your life as quick as your opponent, not too mention that it's still pretty slow for the format. So no, taking a bunch of damage hoping to finish him off first is not a consistent play.
What I'd want is a deck that takes out all the self inflicted damage, but still pack the punch to finish him off by turn three. My card here is Ankh of Mishra given that legacy is a heavy land based format, it'll inflict a decent amount of damage without hurting myself. I'm hoping that the early drop will start draining the opponent's life before unloading my hand since by then I'll be top decking the rest of the way I won't be taking the damage myself. The deck only needs the three lands to unload the hand.
Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear are still my winning draws. These are consistent winners every time I grab them in my initial hand. The rest of the deck is packed with the usual one mana bullets. Price of Progress can be particularly lethal in legacy, so I'm also aiming to maximize its use by not having fetchlands waiting around on the table I may or may not use because I don't want to pinch myself, which is yet another cumulative self damage I'd like to avoid.
Light Up the Stage still seems too slow for the deck. It's yet another card that relies too much on fetchlanchs to be truly effective, but can still be used to grab one or two of those creatures which I want to continue pounding with. So there's that. That's pretty much it. Tell me what you guys think.
By turn 2 your opponent is down to 10 by your own math and you've only played half your hand. That's pretty common with the Swiftspear. You're not beating the odds on that one. You're right that by turn 3 your opponent already has an answer, but he's now half his life short and you still have a slew of spells to play with. Drop the Eidolon and it's game over.
Pick one. Legacy's or Modern's. The only perfect hand/draw scenario you need here is that you draw the Swiftspear in your intial hand. Your opponent will clearly have plenty of answers in between, but even if he drops a creature turn 2 or 3, you're still swinging with a 3/4 or 4/5 Swiftspear and they'll be forced to block. The deck is simply designed that way. More than half of all your burn spells are single mana spells. You'll draw more than plenty to pump it. And if you don't then it won't make a difference since you'll likely have drawn the Eidolon anyway. It's just how deadly the Swistspear can be in your initial hand when it can regularly hit for 7 or 8 in those early turns. Really no different than playing another Goblin. You even find yourself playing Swiptspear before Goblin. That's just the way the deck runs.
Swiftspear? There's Lighning Bolt, Chain Lighning and Lava Spike all which will consistently pump it up big real fast. Rift Bolt is less quick but just as effective. You'll draw plenty of those all the time. Swiftspear will potentially hit for 7 or 8 by turn 3, plus all those spells you've already shot you can turn it into an easy 3 turn kill. That's massive damage very quickly. Even more than Goblin Guide. Goblin is less conditioned, but Swiftpear will hit for more. If you're hitting for all that damage then Eidolon can always wait another turn. In fact, you'll probably won't even need it. There's no point in pinning your opponent down that quickly when you're already doing massive damage anyway.
Searing Blaze is insanely good. It wins games. I guess it's just a matter of taking the risk against combo. You can always grab it from the sideboard and finish the match with it just to play it safe. But the card is so good that I can't disagree with you there.
As for the 3 mana spell, I can't agree more. Still it's common for burn to open at least a spot for a 3 mana spell. It used to be Sulfuric Vortex, and Ensnaring Bridge remains a popular sideboard. If the card creates a winning condition that's too good to pass up, then I think the deck can afford it. And you still need that extra land to win. If you get mana screwed with only 2 lands, you're still a long way from winning. You can survive an extra turn or two, but you'll still need the land.
The common thinking is that if burn can't win by turn 4 then it won't win at all. Exquisite Firecraft allows you to win turn 5 and take the game deep. That's pretty much what it does. Instead of taking the risk of sacrificing land to Fireblast and be countered, which usually ends badly, Firecraft can wait another turn. And with only two of them, you'll drain half his life. Your opponent can cantrip all he wants. You already know he's dead. It's what makes it a great finisher. Players love to accomodate cards like Grim Lavamancer that look great on paper and once in a while they win a game or two, but burn is going nowhere with the Lavamancer. It's too slow and too high maintenance. I think burn just needs to play it straight and main deck cards like Firecraft so you don't fall behind against control and you can win those easy matches, especially in a meta completely dominated by Delver.
Searing Blaze is great against Delver too, so you easily cruise by it, but it has a clear cut drawback. It can become a dead card in your hand against the wrong deck, and you're already taking that same risk with Price of Progress. Progress is still worth enough to main deck. Blaze is better off as a sideboard.
Creatures:
Goblin Guide x4
Monastery Swiftspear x4
Eidolon of the Great Revel x4
Spells:
Lightning Bolt x4
Chain Lightning x4
Lava Spike x4
Rift Bolt x4
Fireblast x4
Price of Progress x4
Exquisite Firecraft x4
Lands:
Mountain x20
Sideboard:
Leyline of the Void x4
Alpine Moon x2
Sulfuric Vortex x2
Dead x1
Searing Blood x1
Skewer the Critics x1
Smash to Smithereens x4
WotC did unban Stoneforge Mystic recently, so it appears that their focus is in fixing Modern first and make it as strong as Legacy was a decade ago. That being said Legacy and Modern go hand in hand. It's already too popular and iconic to be left relegated next to Vintage. The problem may turn out to be not an issue of card pricing alone, but players just crying about Plainwalker points. The format is pretty much rigged as it is right now. Because it's better to play against 200 players instead of playing against 1,500, which is what Legacy tourneys used to draw at their peak. The Reserve list pretty keeps these oldies from having their rankings virtually wiped out. They're popular in their own tiny circuits obviously. But flaunting decks that are worth up to four grand each with complete knowledge that they're out of most players' price range is completely obscene, and clearly puts WotC in a very bad light. Because it's a well known open secret that these players are doing what they're doing.
It also dilutes the overall competition of the game since all you have are a bunch of old rich momma's dudes playing with fancy decks, all who can easily be beaten by any younger player who doesn't have the money to build them. Magic in many ways is like a modern day version of chess. The younger the player the likelier it is for him to make a modest income out of playing tournaments. Now all you see are a bunch of old loserish card collectors trying to manipulate card prices with some bizarre online Magic stock market graph that doesn't say absolutely anything about the card's real value. I'm happy to see my old Alpha Beta collection skyrocket in value, but WotC needs to end this phony charade and allow the younger generations to enjoy the game the way it's supposed to.
I own a mint Black Lotus, and I wouldn't be remotely worried about the card taking a hit. On the contrary I can only see it rising in value because the game would be far more exposed to millions of casual players who would see why the card is the holy grail of Magic. Legacy is by far the most challenging format the game has to offer. It has insanely powerful decks in the most extensive meta with limitless deck building strategy, and it's pretty straight forward so that it doesn't require proxies. Players don't mind paying up for cards like Wasteland because they usually fit in certain type of decks with very specific trategies. But when it comes to dual lands, 100% of all multicolored decks need them. Without the dual lands, there is no Legacy. I can't think of a reason why WotC wouldn't want to reprint those lands as mythic rares and open the floodgates for millions of younger players who are dying to play the format.
The only real problem is the incredibly high price of the dual lands, which can often make a deck's mana pool almost twice as expensive as the rest of the deck. And the fact is that the game still needs to maintain its popularity for those cards to keep rising in value. Taking the dual lands off the reserved list is the only thing the format needs. Cards like Lightning Bolt and Demonic Tutor continue to rise in value anyway, so everybody knows it's all crap. I'm guessing it'll happen at some point in the future once those white borders are impossible to find.
Eidolon of the Great Revel is a great play, but it takes away a noncreature spot I could use to pump the Monastery Swiftspear. Having it hit for three by the second turn is crucial, That's ten life I would have the opponent down by turn two, and a sure kill by turn three. Increasing the chances for a third turn kill is a must. By turn four things usually go downhill. A third turn Monastery Swiftspear combined with a regular spell and a Flame Rift can also hit for another ten, so that gives me another card that will increase the chances for a three turn win along with the Fireblast.
What I'd want is a deck that takes out all the self inflicted damage, but still pack the punch to finish him off by turn three. My card here is Ankh of Mishra given that legacy is a heavy land based format, it'll inflict a decent amount of damage without hurting myself. I'm hoping that the early drop will start draining the opponent's life before unloading my hand since by then I'll be top decking the rest of the way I won't be taking the damage myself. The deck only needs the three lands to unload the hand.
Goblin Guide and Monastery Swiftspear are still my winning draws. These are consistent winners every time I grab them in my initial hand. The rest of the deck is packed with the usual one mana bullets. Price of Progress can be particularly lethal in legacy, so I'm also aiming to maximize its use by not having fetchlands waiting around on the table I may or may not use because I don't want to pinch myself, which is yet another cumulative self damage I'd like to avoid.
Creatures:
Goblin Guide x4
Monastery Swiftspear x4
Artifacts:
Ankh of Mishra x4
Spells:
Lightning Bolt x4
Chain Lightning x4
Lava Spike x4
Fireblast x4
Price of Progress x4
Rift Bolt x4
Skewer the Critics x4
Light Up the Stage x2
Lands:
Mountain x18
Light Up the Stage still seems too slow for the deck. It's yet another card that relies too much on fetchlanchs to be truly effective, but can still be used to grab one or two of those creatures which I want to continue pounding with. So there's that. That's pretty much it. Tell me what you guys think.