Apologies for my absence. Work and Easter have made me busy, but I should have been able to check in more. Will make an effort to contribute soon, although just going by the last page, Anak is in the process of being lynched and/or governed?
In conclusion, Anak's game has been characterised by a huge amount of fence-sitting, unproductive musings on how gosh darn complicated this game is, and although he has asked a lot of questions, they have been inviting opinions while avoiding providing any of this own, and have never been followed up on. When Anak did eventually produce an actual read (out of a total of one), his vote is based on current hot-topic discussion, and never goes beyond that, even when catching IMAB in a lie. This lack of drive to lynch a suspect combines with Anak's own inconsistent language (being happy voting someone he consider only leaning scum), along with a total lack of scumhunting beyond his single vote clearly displays a complete disinterest in actually finding and lynching scum. This is, quite clearly, the mindset of scum looking to keep their head down and not commit to anything.
It might be useful if you reread my interactions with Iamab; you'll see that I asked him a few questions in various posts, responded to his questions, and noted my appreciation for his responses that, at the time, made me feel much better about him. Now I know I should've stuck to my gut, but that's in the past, and everyone pretty much disagreed with me that he was scummy.
Yeah, I wanted to go back and reread several people after finishing off the imab read, but haven't been able to yet. I'll keep this in mind.
Additionally, unless I'm remembering incorrectly, Iamab did attack me as well.
He did an FOS of you in 623 (can't make the URL work), and had you on a couple 'leaning scum' lists, but never did anything that I considered a serious attack. (PPE: looks like this doesn't matter.)
Indeed. Assuming Azrael is on board with it, it would need to be an item that reveals your affiliation - not one that makes you look innocent.
I am actaully all for that, but not this early. The later we can have that ability work, the better. Having a confirmed town (or confirmed scum) close to lylo would obviously be very beneficial.
Aside from not trusting Azrael, is there a reason we can't do it again later?
Again, the wording implies two teams. Numbering them in effect seperates them. I feel like factions might also imply seperate win conditions, which makes a mafia supergroup makes less sense to me.
Only game I recall having two mafia factions was Cyberpunk, and IIRC they had seperate wincons, and didn't know who each other were.
Inheritance had a mostly-one-faction mafia, but with two potential leaders who couldn't co-win, and needed to screw the other one over to lead the team to victory. The phrasing of "all members of Mafia 2" seems to indicate that there were multiple members of Mafia 2, though.
Doomsday had two scum factions with very different paths to victory - the Hitlist mafia needed all of a specified list of characters dead, while the Doomsday mafia were trying to manipulate the countdown clock to hit midnight. That game was very open about the dual-scum-team split, though.
I'm a little curious about this reaction. Eco posted a significant analysis post, and while I haven't re-read Anak yet, it seemed solid to me. Why wouldn't you expect someone to feel better about a player after that?
I would just ask, go look what I have done through the lens of an uncertain town, as opposed to scum. A lot of what you said is just bad play tells, not really scumtells.
Hey Anak, know what a good cure is for being accused of not scumhunting? Scumhunting.
we really need to end this Day. our deadline is back in effect and could easily be soon. so im going to use this crazy amount of town cred i have to make it happen.
Right, the Day 1 / Day 2 deadline. I'd assume the timer reset some due to replacements coming in, but yeah, we should get moving.
i want everyone's next post to be voting one of those 4 people or telling us who you think it should be instead.
Anak I need to reread. DoTArchon got some negative points for the way imab talked about him (PPE: never mind), but his apparent desire to work out a deal with Azrael is a point in his favour. Huntzilla's claim isn't really a point in his favour, in my opinion, but the way he put it forward was. Necarg... huh. Just found this while checking if he had updated recently:
If Nacho's a liar in this scenario, it's still fine for me, as I get to still have some amount of fun post-mortem.
<snip>
I've already said this, and, while I hope Nacho will pardon me, I'm fine if he doesn't. I can still interact in the game post-mortem, so I'm cool with it.
This seems like win-win. If Necarg is scum, we lynch him. If he's town, then dead!Necarg is probably worth more to us than live!Necarg.
20) tomsloger, Tarhalindur (from Real Life), Townie Setup Analyst, was modkilled Day 2.
Sigh.
--
Currently on-board with lynching Necarg. Want to reread Anak and Eco's case, but just his responses to the case support the lack of scumhunting, so he's in second place right now.
Review of imabusinessman. I might be a little more summarizey here than I was on the others, due to imab having triple the post-count.
43: votes Jobie (now Ecophagy) for placing a vote on an NPC.
He interacted several times with Bur over his rationale on the Jobie vote. 109: States that D_V is trolling for reactions, and defends TappingStones. 119: States suspicion of D_V, but no longer of Jobie/Eco. He continues to defend Tapping when Bur questions him on the matter in 136. 207: TappingStones asks imab which votes on him look the worst, giving an opinion of Tom or Necarg. imab is mildly positive on Tom and neutral on Necarg, but says that DoTArchon and Huntzilla look bad. 259: Suspicious of D_V, DoTArchon, Huntzilla, tomsloger, hansanator. Townie on Bur, TappingStones, Proph, Jobie/Eco.
Presses others for opinions on D_V. 321: Nachomamma8 votes imab for a meta read. imab responds with a defence and some OMGUS. 482: Votes Azrael. 495: Comments on D_V changing his avatar. 496: In response to Bur, explains Azrael vote further. 524: In response to RobRoy, states why he is waffling on D_V. Claims (incorrectly) that D_V has changed his avatar multiple times. 532: Defends his attacks on Jobie and Proph from D_V.
This is where imab and D_V really start going at it. I don't feel like linking every single post where one badmouths the other, so to cut to the chase: I can't see any way that imab and D_V would have that fight as co-scum.
537: Mild attack on Bur for the town/scum list he posted. 539: Strengthens the attack on Bur. Also states suspicion of Nachomamma8. The attack continues over the following posts. 601: States that he would like to see Nacho govern any of: Bur, tomsloger, leukovirus (known scum), 7hawk77 (known scum). At this point, I believe RobRoy had expressed suspicion of Hawk, and there was no attempt at all to attack leuko. 623: Mild attack on Ghosting, then continues to attack Bur. 630: States scum reads on Bur, DoTArchon, Anak. Milder scum reads on Nacho, Ghosting, tomsloger. 652: Responds to an attack by Ghosting by refuting points but not counterattacking. This continues over the next several posts. 769: Extensive attack on Bur, pulling in quotes from two previous games to support why Bur's posting this game is different (and therefore scummy). 822: Mild attack on Anaklusmos for "not reading the game". Arguments with Anak continue for several posts. 851: Asks Gentleman Johnny, Nacho and tomsloger to comment on Anak. 926: Mild attack on Nacho for wanting to lynch lurkers. 947: Updated reads. Town on Killjoy, RobRoy, TappingStones, Huntzilla. Lean town on Gentleman Johnny. Lean scum on Ghosting and Nacho. Scum on Anaklusmos, Bur, DoTArchon. Clarifies a post later that tomsloger is neutral. 980: Continues attack on Bur. 1012: Continues attack on Anaklusmos.
For different reasons than with D_V, I cannot see imab and Bur being co-scum. If this was a single-mafia game, then I'd put Bur in the "almost cleared" section; as it is, he just gets some townie points. To a lesser degree, the same goes for Anaklusmos. While imabusinessman didn't put as much effort into attacking him as he did Bur, it still looks like an actual attempt to push a lynch.
On the other side of the coin, this has made me feel worse about Ghosting, and to a lesser degree DoTArchon. imab was attacked several times by Ghosting, but never counterattacked, as he did on Nacho, D_V, Bur, and Anak. If (and this is still unprovable) the mod consolidated the scum groups, that could indicate that Ghosting and imab were co-scum, trying to distance without getting either one of them lynched in the process. Again, if this were a single-mafia game, I'd move Ghosting to "likely scum", but instead he just goes down a few ticks. By the same logic, imab's constant mentioning of DoTArchon as scummy, while literally never providing a reason other than DoTA's initial vote of TappingStones, could likewise be distancing.
Finally, there's the people he spoke of positively. TappingStones (now dead neutral) was someone imab defended; other than that, the only positive reads he ever expressed were no-reason-given town reads on Bur, Proph, and Jobie/Eco early, and Killjoy, RobRoy, and Huntzilla, and a lean town on Gentleman Johnny later on. Of these, Huntzilla has a slight extra reason to be paid attention to, as imab mentioned him earlier on as scummy, but came around with no reason given. That's a very minor point, though, when dealing with someone who is already flipped as scum.
The last thing I wanted to cover was whether imab was co-scum with leuko and/or Hawk. The only real interaction he had with either was saying that he'd be fine with a governing of them in 601; leuko had previously asked him a question in 204, which he responded to in 206. That isn't much to go on, but I'm guessing that imab and leuko were co-scum. The initial exchange to build some non-aggressive interaction, and then imab saying he's fine with a reveal of leuko when leuko was under no pressure. I really have no clue about Hawk, though, and without being able to link all three together, I don't know if this analysis can be relied upon or not.
120: Responds to Huntzilla on some questions. Mildly supportive of Tapping. 123: Comments on D_V, no position. 164: Defends Tapping strongly against Necarg. Attacks Tom. 165: Doesn't see hansanator making it Day 2 as necessarily scummy. Elaborates in 171 that he still finds him suspicious, though. leuko continues to talk about this in his next couple posts. 178: Interacts with Hawk (known scum) over Hawk's claim. Nothing much said. 202: Responds to hansanator saying that leuko made a scum slip. 204: Questions imab (known scum) on the Nacho plan. 234: Questions D_V about which Day it is, states support of Tapping, begins to see tomsloger as townier. 292: Responds to questions from Killjoy on hans, stating a null read of hans. 338: Questions Gentleman Johnny on his counterpart.
Around this time there are some posts about leuko's gender which I do not believe are game relevant. 560: He says he will have something to say about D_V, Azrael, and imab after rereads.
And that's it. Not many strong positions of any kind. He was consistently supportive of Tapping, but we know that is not indicative. Pretty much everyone else that he expresses a town/scum opinion on, he slips in some weasel words to cover a jump in either direction. This is most evident in his position on hansanator, where he expresses suspicion, but comes up with reasons to cover it, and later says that his gut says town, but that he dislikes the mechanics of the role. Not much to be learned here.
Despite the reduced size of the group, I think I'd still rather lynch someone than reveal, with the standard caveat that Nacho can pardon as long as he takes responsibility for it. Right now I'm leaning towards Necarg, but not enough to vote him. I'm trying to do a PBPA of the dead scum (see below), and hopefully that'll turn up something.
@RR The real-life time restriction would mean that he would likely have posted again in this delay though, no? It feels to me like he is intentionally not posting, as opposed to being prevented, which is why I think he has a hard limit of a certain number. He would be using that "on cooldown" if it was real life.
Hmm. The game did have a built-in deadline for each day, which we are once again counting down towards, so there isn't actually as much difference between the two as I was initially thinking. If you're right, hopefully the mod allowed him a couple extra posts toDay due to the delays.
--
For the record, I'm avoiding looking too closely at tomsloger's latest post as I don't want it to affect my reread too much.
--
I'm doing an analysis of the dead scum's posts. If they were an isolated group from the start, then there won't be anything to be learned from this; if not, hopefully something turns up. Best case, I'm able to find something that is inconsistent with them being scumbuddies, and we can start looking further into who their buddies were; worst case, I waste a little time. Starting with the lowest post-count and working my way up.
7hawk77:
45: Lays a quick attack on hansanator. 55: Backs off hansa, questions tomsloger and Anak. 80: Votes Tom. Explains attack in 151, but lays ground for a flip-flop. 152: States that he will be claiming. Responds to questions on this from leukovirus (known scum) in 176, but not much actual interaction. He actually claims in 221. 225: Responds to me questioning why he didn't wait as Ghosting had asked, dismissively. 235: Starts mild attack on Ghosting. Expresses town read on hansanator. 236: Mild attack on Ghosting and RobRoy. 282: Continues spat with Ghosting. This extends into 291. 300: Responds to RobRoy's attack on him. Speaks positively of hansa, negatively of Ghosting. 303: Continues to respond to RobRoy. Positive on Tom and Tapping. Further defends Tom in 305. 689: Mild positive on Necarg, continues to poke Ghosting.
Overall, little actual interaction. The initial attack and then quick reverse on hansanator feels more like scum trying to attack townie than anything that would be done to a scumbuddy, so I doubt Hawk was co-scum with hansa. The support of Tom and the attack on Ghosting are also things that I doubt Hawk would have done to a buddy, so they get a couple points from me on that. The only person that I think comes out of this seeming a little worse is Necarg, and that only from the offhand comment in 689.
Will try to get leukovirus in today as well, but will probably not get to imab before the weekend.
I have no idea what I was trying to say in that sentence about RobRoy.
That sentence isn't fully complete at all.
Uhhh. Yeah.
Basically my overall thoughts on RobRoy.
Robroy has a lot of credence to being town. While I want to trust him, my overall dislike was his dismissive nature on the bussinessman lying thing.
Robroy is town in my book, but I have this feeling I can't shake in my gut that says otherwise and I can't really place a finger on why. I feel that in many ways he is just hedging bets and bringing up points against other players arguments but hasn't developed a lot of his own feelings.
IDK maybe I am just wrong. Kind of why I want the reveal on him is because of this it would settle things once and for all.
You're not wrong. The only people I've really had strong feelings about this game have been Hawk, Tapping, tomsloger, and Gentleman Johnny, and even about GJ I have a fair bit of ambivalence. It's something that I'm hoping I'll be able to work on going forward - ideally as soon as we have a dead scum that we can actually be sure has living buddies. I still feel like this is an awful reason to end the day with a reveal on someone, though.
I also hate to say this but I have a lot of suspicion right now on our replacements. I was debating, whether or not to talk about this but I feel that it has a lot of merit, I just don't feel that it is entirely in the spirit of playing a game to talk about this. Taredas is salvaging roles, he had many people to choose from to replace in he choose to kill off a mafia group but to keep others alive. The answer to me on this is that these are power roles, or roles in the other mafia group or something that actually mattered to the game like Mao. At first I didn't want to draw attention to this, but I feel that the mafia(If there is another group), will be discussing this as well.
Huh. I don't feel like the mod would have gone out of his way to save a power role - he talked in-thread about the need to re-balance the game, so I feel like he could just have just let strong townie roles die instead of needing to do that. On the other hand, if he needed to replace one member of Mafia 1 and three of Mafia 2, I could definitely see him swapping the replacement into Mafia 1 and letting all of Mafia 2 die. On the gripping hand, the same logic could apply if he needed replacements for a townie and three mafiosos, which pretty much eliminates the usefulness of this line of speculation.
ok, you already know im not a fan of claims just making someone untouchable.
but this is mindscrew. i could see an actual mason being scum. even if HP was here to say you were confirmed town, that doesnt make it 100% in my mind.
revealing you now either catches you or makes you actually untouchable. its win-win (or eventually reveals that nacho is false, i suppose)
My worry here - and to be explicit, I do not want Gentleman Johnny to comment one way or the other on this - is that taking GJ out might prevent the counterpart from entering the game. I'd rather wait at least one day before making a move on him to try to give a window for the new player to enter the game.
at this point, i think my second choice for reveal might be myself. i dont remember who said it (might have been you) but making the scum choose between NKing me or letting me run around confirmed seems awesome.
my role PM has a lot of words that vaguely do stuff, but its certainly not worth a NK.
Also disagree on this. You're my strongest townie read in this thread, and I'd rather use the lynch somewhere that will actually have a chance of catching scum.
Will go back and see if I can find anything out there, how likely is it that the teams were consolidated? Is there really a precedent for that from other games?
I don't recall a game having this level of unbalancing modkills in it before, and multiple-scum-team games are pretty rare. The only other one I recall was Doomsday Mafia from ages ago, and that one gave the two scum teams significantly different win conditions.
My hunch with Necarg is that he has a specific amount of posts he can make during the day, this way he edits one for general posts and such, and saves new ones for votes and other things that need to be said at a specific point. Editing one post over and over for the hell of it seems really obnoxious, bookmarking the post helps but still.
I'd more likely guess that his posts are limited by real-life time, not by game time - no post within 72 hours of a previous one, or whatever.
Also, my issues with him are not so much that he isn't posting as that he isn't providing content. Even when he was editing posts fairly regularly, it was all-too-often song lyrics and such instead of anything substantive. The fact that his edits sometimes wiped out previous content may have contributed to this impression as well, but it doesn't excuse him.
The problem I have with a one shot innocent child is that in this set up, and with you having to ask for it, it actually defeats the damn point of an innocent child. I still wouldn't necessarily believe it makes you confirmed town. It literally changes nothing. It's just words for the sake of mod-posted words.
Indeed. Assuming Azrael is on board with it, it would need to be an item that reveals your affiliation - not one that makes you look innocent.
1) 7hawk77, Friend Computer, Mafia Dreaming God, was deleted Day 2
...
12) imabusinessman, ???, Mafia ???, was modkilled Day 2
14) leukovirus, ???, Mafia ???, was modkilled Day 2
All members of Mafia 2 are dead.
Wow. Three dead, all scum, and all Mafia 2? Iiiinteresting.
Multiple mafias, unfortunately, really does screw up our reads based on the bodies. There's no way to know whether Hawk, imab, and leuko were all in Mafia 2 before the modkills, or whether they were split between the mafias, and the mod consolidated the remaining scum into Mafia 1 afterwards. This puts us nearly back to square one as far as interaction reads.
Robroy actually gains a lot of credence to me with these revelations, because of his ample defense of Businessman. If he is mafia 1, then he would defend businessman because in his mind it is a town v. town fight and because of this equates to him gaining townie points with a strong player.
If you're trying to attack me, "credence" cannot be the word you want to use. I would also argue the factual nature of "ample". And if your slapfight with imab is what you're trying to refer to with "town v. town", then I'd also argue "strong".
And besides, I'm not understanding your point. You say that he's town since he defended IMAB, while as scum he would defend IMAB to gain town points...?
I think he's trying to say that mafia1!RobRoy, seeing D_V and imab going at each other, would try to be a voice of reason and defend imab, and that's what he thinks I did. The problem is that it's possible to justify pretty much anything as being something that scum might do, since they often just don't want to die. What he needs to do, if he really thinks I'm scum, is show how what I posted is incompatible with town!RobRoy's mindset.
Tom it does seem really really dumb to reveal a claimed mason to me
Well, if he were a full claimed mason, we'd know for sure that there is someone else out there who can vouch for him in the future. The way he's been describing things so far, it sounds like his counterpart may never actually enter the thread.
That said, I think I'd still prefer to leave GJ until tomorrow. Given the claim, I'd like to give at least one night/day cycle for the other player to hopefully enter the game. If she still isn't here tomorrow, I'll be taking a long, hard look at Randy.
As for who I do dislike at this time... Necarg is still up there. Waiting to hear what Huntzilla has to claim, but he's on my radar. And I'd like to reread hansanator at some point, as the only re-awakened lurker with continuity, but won't have time to do that soon.
For the record I don't think Hunt or Bur's contribution is that bad and definitely not deserving of a Mod kill.
Was anyone arguing otherwise? I'd expressed annoyance that Bur was in a two-week V/LA, but had also said that I thought he'd be back. I don't think anyone was arguing for Huntzilla to die.
CitricBase replaces Darth Melvin. Please welcome him to the game!
Welcome, CitricBase! The person you are replacing in for last posted never. Here's your catchup.
Votes are going to the person below them alphabetically on the list. For example, tomsloger voted for DoTArchon. On the votecount, this made Gentleman Johnny's number of votes go up by one. There is some debate about whether a majority of people voting for DoTArchon will cause him to be lynched (meaning the votes are only displaying wrong) or whether it would mean Gentleman Johnny will be lyched (the votes are actually being redirected), but most people are trusting the numbers more than the names. (In the given example, toms really is expressing suspicion of GJ, not of DoTA.) This leads into...
Nachomamma8 has claimed a Governor role, where he can pardon a lynch choice, sending us to night with their affiliation being publicly revealed by the mod. There has also been debate over the best way to use this, but Nacho has stated that he will pardon someone if we end up being wrong about the vote-redirection thing.
7hawk77 (currently absent) claimed that he was told rules that may or may not be in the game, including specifically one that roles can override rules. It is unclear what use this is.
Bur has been V/LA for a while, but should be back around Monday.
D_V is able to post and vote in the game, but cannot currently be voted for. He will likely be joining us fully at some point.
Gentleman Johnny claims to be masoned with another player who is not yet in the game. He has been conversing with her, and there is a possibility that she will enter the game at some point. They are confirmed town to each other.
hansanator (currently absent) claimed that he is the reason the game started with Day 2 showing. D_V has stated that, despite the thread showing Day 2, it is not actually Day 2.
Jobie, imabusinessman, and leukovirus have all asked to replace out.
Necarg has the ability to edit his posts, and has been doing so instead of making new posts when he has something to respond to.
Azrael is outside of the game and cannot vote or be voted for, but may post. He has some knowledge of an older version of the setup, but has his own agenda, involving players selling him their heart, mind, or soul - with his expressed preference being for souls. See here for his claim, with some clarification here. DoTArchon has already arranged a deal for today, trading his soul for an investigation ability of some kind.
Players not listed are currently playing the game, with no explicitly claimed abilities that I can remember.
7hawk77 and hansanator are being prodded with prejudice. Necarg is being poked. Modkills will come once I know how many of these players will also need to be replaced; I can neither confirm nor deny that this should occur before the end of the weekend. Note that midgame setup changes may be required given the quantity of modkills; these modkills may or may not end the day depending on the alignments of players modkilledd (so I'd really rather know whether I need to modkill two more players before I pull the trigger).
Well this is going to be ugly. Also, looks like we're spinning our wheels a bit longer...
If you think I'm lying, why wouldn't you just wring me up?
Honestly, I'm not up to putting the effort in. The inbound modkills might end the day, they might not, but either way that's going to change the tenor of the game entirely. I just feel like we're spinning our wheels, and can't be arsed to reread you before then.
I just legitimately forgot I recognized TS as town aligned neutral.
Well... not 'just', no. Because at some point in our discussion you realized that this happened. I don't believe that this happened between 1133, where you made your last attempt to defend yourself, and 1137, where you admit to having forgotten. That means that you realized your mistake, and still tried to hide it, and I don't like that.
You referenced MvW Classic in your post immediately before this one, and after taking a look at that game - which featured multiple scum factions, and neutrals who cared about living long enough to see one of the factions wiped out - I can see how town!GJ could have made post 994; I can even see how town!GJ could forget about that and make post 1023 afterwards. I do not, however, like the mindset that was demonstrated when you tried to cover up your mistake. I also don't like the way you keep hiding behind your claim, as though it means you aren't deserving of any suspicion or questioning.
All told, this isn't enough for me to want you dead now, but you are on my radar for the future, and that pinging will get stronger the longer you are flying solo.
if it helps, my random number ability triggers for each day. so if:
a) its is me that moving the votes
b) it applies to night actions too
...it will still be just one down.
continue playing (10) : gj, tomsloger, D_V, Necarg, Anaklusmos, DoTArchon, Killjoy, RobRoy, Nachomamma8, Huntzilla
abandon game (0) :
not voting : lurkers, future modkills
hey look. we finally agreed on something.
For the record, I'm less sure now. I was fine with 2-3 more modkills on top of Tapping's, but I think we're actually at 6 - Darth Melvin, Jobie, imab, lueko, Hawk, and hansa. I'm still willing to keep playing, but with this many players being removed from the game, I'd prefer to leave it up to the mod's discretion on whether or not the game is still worth spending our time on.
In 994, you said that you were confirmed to this mysterious other player / voice, not that you would be publicly revealed as townie. Which is it?
The other mason would confirm me as town. That person can't do that if they aren't technically in the game yet, can they? According to our chat, we are both confirmed to the other, so if you read the rest of the post I quoted, I am a mason who can't be confirmed yet, but will be.
So when you said that you would be "REAVEALED......AND...CONFIRMED", what you actually meant was that your counterpart would enter the thread and be willing to vouch for you. This is not being revealed - that word implies some level of mod involvement. It also, in my opinion, isn't being 100% confirmed - not in a game called Mind Screw, that the mod has stated has bastard mod elements.
Additionally, you've stated that you don't even know what will cause your other half to enter the game, which means that you apparently expect us to treat you as confirmed town for mechanical reasons that may never be confirmable. I'm willing to give you some slack based on your claim, but I'm not just going to completely ignore you when what you are saying contradicts itself.
In 994, though, you didn't say that you could see the signs for neutral. You specifically said that you could see the signs for "town aligned neutral", as opposed to the regular kind of neutral. And then you promptly changed your stance on that, and tried to ignore my questions about why. This is really starting to remind me of the interaction I had with Tapping over the use of Nacho's ability - an inconsistent mindset, then trying to cover up the evidence of that inconsistency.
You quoted this section of my post but did not respond to it in any way. Are you planning to?
Meh, I might as well claim since I feel myself being super lazy. I am masoned with another player, I am confirmed town to that player, and that player is confirmed town to me. There are events that may occur that player to enter the game under certain circumstances, and neither one of us knows which.
In 994, you said that you were confirmed to this mysterious other player / voice, not that you would be publicly revealed as townie. Which is it?
Interestingly, 994 is also the post in which you compared "town-aligned neutral"!Tapping to "regular neutral"!Tapping - the other thing that you're currently being inconsistent about.
I meant what I said. I could see the signs for neutral. If you want to split hairs over the meaning and waste my time, be my guest. I really don't see a reason to engage in it if there is a decent chance this game gets wasted anyway. I either misspoke, or misunderstood the meaning, but it is clear: TS claimed neutral. I said I could see how his stances make sense from a more neutral aligned party. Being town aligned changes nothing, unless he can win while dead. Which we will never know.
In 994, though, you didn't say that you could see the signs for neutral. You specifically said that you could see the signs for "town aligned neutral", as opposed to the regular kind of neutral. And then you promptly changed your stance on that, and tried to ignore my questions about why. This is really starting to remind me of the interaction I had with Tapping over the use of Nacho's ability - an inconsistent mindset, then trying to cover up the evidence of that inconsistency.
Given that you obviously saw the entirety of Tapping's claim, why are you trying to pretend otherwise?
I forgot?
This was before the modkill, all I suggested was that I believed him to be neutral over scum, despite him claiming town aligned. Neutrals are a lot more defensive in my experience and stubborn to his back and forth with DV.
I could believe TS being town aligned neutral, if for no other reason, he is far more defensive than I would think an actual neutral would be in that situation.
In 994 you explicitly compared "town aligned neutral"!Tapping to "actual neutral"!Tapping. Not, as you are trying to say here, neutral!Tapping vs scum!Tapping.
Going forward from that, in 1022 I asked you to expand on 994; your response, in 1023, did compare neutral!Tapping to scum!Tapping. But that was more replacing what you'd said earlier than explaining it.
I'm just going to ask straight up: are you hydra'd with this other voice of yours, so that she is able to post from your account? Her posting 994 and you responding with 1023 would explain why you didn't even remember your earlier position - it wasn't actually yours. If that isn't the case, then I find your lack of consistency to be very suspicious.
What exactly did you picture the win condition of a town-aligned neutral to be?
I missed that he said town aligned neutral. That typically implies he has a wincondition either against a 2nd mafia, or a hostile neutral. OTherwise, why wouldn't he just be town?
The part that I bolded is a lie. Tapping claimed "town aligned neutral" in 983. Your next post in the game was 994, where you say this:
I could believe TS being town aligned neutral, if for no other reason, he is far more defensive than I would think an actual neutral would be in that situation.
In this post, you explicitly contrast his claim of "town aligned neutral" with a regular neutral. In other words, you didn't miss that part of this claim. My clarification question to you also explicitly referenced it:
Johnny, can you please elaborate on this? What do you believe a town-aligned neutral's win condition would look like, and why would such a player be more defensive than a non-town-aligned neutral?
Given that you obviously saw the entirety of Tapping's claim, why are you trying to pretend otherwise?
Interesting. Will need to reread.
Yeah, I wanted to go back and reread several people after finishing off the imab read, but haven't been able to yet. I'll keep this in mind.
He did an FOS of you in 623 (can't make the URL work), and had you on a couple 'leaning scum' lists, but never did anything that I considered a serious attack. (PPE: looks like this doesn't matter.)
Aside from not trusting Azrael, is there a reason we can't do it again later?
I was quoting the Y2K episode of Family Guy. Just a bit of whimsy.
Inheritance had a mostly-one-faction mafia, but with two potential leaders who couldn't co-win, and needed to screw the other one over to lead the team to victory. The phrasing of "all members of Mafia 2" seems to indicate that there were multiple members of Mafia 2, though.
Doomsday had two scum factions with very different paths to victory - the Hitlist mafia needed all of a specified list of characters dead, while the Doomsday mafia were trying to manipulate the countdown clock to hit midnight. That game was very open about the dual-scum-team split, though.
I'm a little curious about this reaction. Eco posted a significant analysis post, and while I haven't re-read Anak yet, it seemed solid to me. Why wouldn't you expect someone to feel better about a player after that?
Hey Anak, know what a good cure is for being accused of not scumhunting? Scumhunting.
Right, the Day 1 / Day 2 deadline. I'd assume the timer reset some due to replacements coming in, but yeah, we should get moving.
Anak I need to reread. DoTArchon got some negative points for the way imab talked about him (PPE: never mind), but his apparent desire to work out a deal with Azrael is a point in his favour. Huntzilla's claim isn't really a point in his favour, in my opinion, but the way he put it forward was. Necarg... huh. Just found this while checking if he had updated recently:
This seems like win-win. If Necarg is scum, we lynch him. If he's town, then dead!Necarg is probably worth more to us than live!Necarg.
vote: nachomomma8.
So imab, leuko, and Hawk were all on the same team. Huh. Didn't expect that after my rereads of them.
Sigh.
--
Currently on-board with lynching Necarg. Want to reread Anak and Eco's case, but just his responses to the case support the lack of scumhunting, so he's in second place right now.
43: votes Jobie (now Ecophagy) for placing a vote on an NPC.
He interacted several times with Bur over his rationale on the Jobie vote.
109: States that D_V is trolling for reactions, and defends TappingStones.
119: States suspicion of D_V, but no longer of Jobie/Eco. He continues to defend Tapping when Bur questions him on the matter in 136.
207: TappingStones asks imab which votes on him look the worst, giving an opinion of Tom or Necarg. imab is mildly positive on Tom and neutral on Necarg, but says that DoTArchon and Huntzilla look bad.
259: Suspicious of D_V, DoTArchon, Huntzilla, tomsloger, hansanator. Townie on Bur, TappingStones, Proph, Jobie/Eco.
Presses others for opinions on D_V.
321: Nachomamma8 votes imab for a meta read. imab responds with a defence and some OMGUS.
482: Votes Azrael.
495: Comments on D_V changing his avatar.
496: In response to Bur, explains Azrael vote further.
524: In response to RobRoy, states why he is waffling on D_V. Claims (incorrectly) that D_V has changed his avatar multiple times.
532: Defends his attacks on Jobie and Proph from D_V.
This is where imab and D_V really start going at it. I don't feel like linking every single post where one badmouths the other, so to cut to the chase: I can't see any way that imab and D_V would have that fight as co-scum.
537: Mild attack on Bur for the town/scum list he posted.
539: Strengthens the attack on Bur. Also states suspicion of Nachomamma8. The attack continues over the following posts.
601: States that he would like to see Nacho govern any of: Bur, tomsloger, leukovirus (known scum), 7hawk77 (known scum). At this point, I believe RobRoy had expressed suspicion of Hawk, and there was no attempt at all to attack leuko.
623: Mild attack on Ghosting, then continues to attack Bur.
630: States scum reads on Bur, DoTArchon, Anak. Milder scum reads on Nacho, Ghosting, tomsloger.
652: Responds to an attack by Ghosting by refuting points but not counterattacking. This continues over the next several posts.
769: Extensive attack on Bur, pulling in quotes from two previous games to support why Bur's posting this game is different (and therefore scummy).
822: Mild attack on Anaklusmos for "not reading the game". Arguments with Anak continue for several posts.
851: Asks Gentleman Johnny, Nacho and tomsloger to comment on Anak.
926: Mild attack on Nacho for wanting to lynch lurkers.
947: Updated reads. Town on Killjoy, RobRoy, TappingStones, Huntzilla. Lean town on Gentleman Johnny. Lean scum on Ghosting and Nacho. Scum on Anaklusmos, Bur, DoTArchon. Clarifies a post later that tomsloger is neutral.
980: Continues attack on Bur.
1012: Continues attack on Anaklusmos.
For different reasons than with D_V, I cannot see imab and Bur being co-scum. If this was a single-mafia game, then I'd put Bur in the "almost cleared" section; as it is, he just gets some townie points. To a lesser degree, the same goes for Anaklusmos. While imabusinessman didn't put as much effort into attacking him as he did Bur, it still looks like an actual attempt to push a lynch.
On the other side of the coin, this has made me feel worse about Ghosting, and to a lesser degree DoTArchon. imab was attacked several times by Ghosting, but never counterattacked, as he did on Nacho, D_V, Bur, and Anak. If (and this is still unprovable) the mod consolidated the scum groups, that could indicate that Ghosting and imab were co-scum, trying to distance without getting either one of them lynched in the process. Again, if this were a single-mafia game, I'd move Ghosting to "likely scum", but instead he just goes down a few ticks. By the same logic, imab's constant mentioning of DoTArchon as scummy, while literally never providing a reason other than DoTA's initial vote of TappingStones, could likewise be distancing.
Finally, there's the people he spoke of positively. TappingStones (now dead neutral) was someone imab defended; other than that, the only positive reads he ever expressed were no-reason-given town reads on Bur, Proph, and Jobie/Eco early, and Killjoy, RobRoy, and Huntzilla, and a lean town on Gentleman Johnny later on. Of these, Huntzilla has a slight extra reason to be paid attention to, as imab mentioned him earlier on as scummy, but came around with no reason given. That's a very minor point, though, when dealing with someone who is already flipped as scum.
The last thing I wanted to cover was whether imab was co-scum with leuko and/or Hawk. The only real interaction he had with either was saying that he'd be fine with a governing of them in 601; leuko had previously asked him a question in 204, which he responded to in 206. That isn't much to go on, but I'm guessing that imab and leuko were co-scum. The initial exchange to build some non-aggressive interaction, and then imab saying he's fine with a reveal of leuko when leuko was under no pressure. I really have no clue about Hawk, though, and without being able to link all three together, I don't know if this analysis can be relied upon or not.
120: Responds to Huntzilla on some questions. Mildly supportive of Tapping.
123: Comments on D_V, no position.
164: Defends Tapping strongly against Necarg. Attacks Tom.
165: Doesn't see hansanator making it Day 2 as necessarily scummy. Elaborates in 171 that he still finds him suspicious, though. leuko continues to talk about this in his next couple posts.
178: Interacts with Hawk (known scum) over Hawk's claim. Nothing much said.
202: Responds to hansanator saying that leuko made a scum slip.
204: Questions imab (known scum) on the Nacho plan.
234: Questions D_V about which Day it is, states support of Tapping, begins to see tomsloger as townier.
292: Responds to questions from Killjoy on hans, stating a null read of hans.
338: Questions Gentleman Johnny on his counterpart.
Around this time there are some posts about leuko's gender which I do not believe are game relevant.
560: He says he will have something to say about D_V, Azrael, and imab after rereads.
And that's it. Not many strong positions of any kind. He was consistently supportive of Tapping, but we know that is not indicative. Pretty much everyone else that he expresses a town/scum opinion on, he slips in some weasel words to cover a jump in either direction. This is most evident in his position on hansanator, where he expresses suspicion, but comes up with reasons to cover it, and later says that his gut says town, but that he dislikes the mechanics of the role. Not much to be learned here.
I'll see if I can do imab tomorrow.
Despite the reduced size of the group, I think I'd still rather lynch someone than reveal, with the standard caveat that Nacho can pardon as long as he takes responsibility for it. Right now I'm leaning towards Necarg, but not enough to vote him. I'm trying to do a PBPA of the dead scum (see below), and hopefully that'll turn up something.
Hmm. The game did have a built-in deadline for each day, which we are once again counting down towards, so there isn't actually as much difference between the two as I was initially thinking. If you're right, hopefully the mod allowed him a couple extra posts toDay due to the delays.
--
For the record, I'm avoiding looking too closely at tomsloger's latest post as I don't want it to affect my reread too much.
--
I'm doing an analysis of the dead scum's posts. If they were an isolated group from the start, then there won't be anything to be learned from this; if not, hopefully something turns up. Best case, I'm able to find something that is inconsistent with them being scumbuddies, and we can start looking further into who their buddies were; worst case, I waste a little time. Starting with the lowest post-count and working my way up.
7hawk77:
45: Lays a quick attack on hansanator.
55: Backs off hansa, questions tomsloger and Anak.
80: Votes Tom. Explains attack in 151, but lays ground for a flip-flop.
152: States that he will be claiming. Responds to questions on this from leukovirus (known scum) in 176, but not much actual interaction. He actually claims in 221.
225: Responds to me questioning why he didn't wait as Ghosting had asked, dismissively.
235: Starts mild attack on Ghosting. Expresses town read on hansanator.
236: Mild attack on Ghosting and RobRoy.
282: Continues spat with Ghosting. This extends into 291.
300: Responds to RobRoy's attack on him. Speaks positively of hansa, negatively of Ghosting.
303: Continues to respond to RobRoy. Positive on Tom and Tapping. Further defends Tom in 305.
689: Mild positive on Necarg, continues to poke Ghosting.
Overall, little actual interaction. The initial attack and then quick reverse on hansanator feels more like scum trying to attack townie than anything that would be done to a scumbuddy, so I doubt Hawk was co-scum with hansa. The support of Tom and the attack on Ghosting are also things that I doubt Hawk would have done to a buddy, so they get a couple points from me on that. The only person that I think comes out of this seeming a little worse is Necarg, and that only from the offhand comment in 689.
Will try to get leukovirus in today as well, but will probably not get to imab before the weekend.
You're not wrong. The only people I've really had strong feelings about this game have been Hawk, Tapping, tomsloger, and Gentleman Johnny, and even about GJ I have a fair bit of ambivalence. It's something that I'm hoping I'll be able to work on going forward - ideally as soon as we have a dead scum that we can actually be sure has living buddies. I still feel like this is an awful reason to end the day with a reveal on someone, though.
Huh. I don't feel like the mod would have gone out of his way to save a power role - he talked in-thread about the need to re-balance the game, so I feel like he could just have just let strong townie roles die instead of needing to do that. On the other hand, if he needed to replace one member of Mafia 1 and three of Mafia 2, I could definitely see him swapping the replacement into Mafia 1 and letting all of Mafia 2 die. On the gripping hand, the same logic could apply if he needed replacements for a townie and three mafiosos, which pretty much eliminates the usefulness of this line of speculation.
My worry here - and to be explicit, I do not want Gentleman Johnny to comment one way or the other on this - is that taking GJ out might prevent the counterpart from entering the game. I'd rather wait at least one day before making a move on him to try to give a window for the new player to enter the game.
Also disagree on this. You're my strongest townie read in this thread, and I'd rather use the lynch somewhere that will actually have a chance of catching scum.
I don't recall a game having this level of unbalancing modkills in it before, and multiple-scum-team games are pretty rare. The only other one I recall was Doomsday Mafia from ages ago, and that one gave the two scum teams significantly different win conditions.
I'd more likely guess that his posts are limited by real-life time, not by game time - no post within 72 hours of a previous one, or whatever.
Also, my issues with him are not so much that he isn't posting as that he isn't providing content. Even when he was editing posts fairly regularly, it was all-too-often song lyrics and such instead of anything substantive. The fact that his edits sometimes wiped out previous content may have contributed to this impression as well, but it doesn't excuse him.
Indeed. Assuming Azrael is on board with it, it would need to be an item that reveals your affiliation - not one that makes you look innocent.
Welcome!
Wow. Three dead, all scum, and all Mafia 2? Iiiinteresting.
Multiple mafias, unfortunately, really does screw up our reads based on the bodies. There's no way to know whether Hawk, imab, and leuko were all in Mafia 2 before the modkills, or whether they were split between the mafias, and the mod consolidated the remaining scum into Mafia 1 afterwards. This puts us nearly back to square one as far as interaction reads.
If you're trying to attack me, "credence" cannot be the word you want to use. I would also argue the factual nature of "ample". And if your slapfight with imab is what you're trying to refer to with "town v. town", then I'd also argue "strong".
I think he's trying to say that mafia1!RobRoy, seeing D_V and imab going at each other, would try to be a voice of reason and defend imab, and that's what he thinks I did. The problem is that it's possible to justify pretty much anything as being something that scum might do, since they often just don't want to die. What he needs to do, if he really thinks I'm scum, is show how what I posted is incompatible with town!RobRoy's mindset.
I don't understand where "two traitors" came from.
Well, if he were a full claimed mason, we'd know for sure that there is someone else out there who can vouch for him in the future. The way he's been describing things so far, it sounds like his counterpart may never actually enter the thread.
That said, I think I'd still prefer to leave GJ until tomorrow. Given the claim, I'd like to give at least one night/day cycle for the other player to hopefully enter the game. If she still isn't here tomorrow, I'll be taking a long, hard look at Randy.
As for who I do dislike at this time... Necarg is still up there. Waiting to hear what Huntzilla has to claim, but he's on my radar. And I'd like to reread hansanator at some point, as the only re-awakened lurker with continuity, but won't have time to do that soon.
Was anyone arguing otherwise? I'd expressed annoyance that Bur was in a two-week V/LA, but had also said that I thought he'd be back. I don't think anyone was arguing for Huntzilla to die.
Welcome, CitricBase! The person you are replacing in for last posted never. Here's your catchup.
Votes are going to the person below them alphabetically on the list. For example, tomsloger voted for DoTArchon. On the votecount, this made Gentleman Johnny's number of votes go up by one. There is some debate about whether a majority of people voting for DoTArchon will cause him to be lynched (meaning the votes are only displaying wrong) or whether it would mean Gentleman Johnny will be lyched (the votes are actually being redirected), but most people are trusting the numbers more than the names. (In the given example, toms really is expressing suspicion of GJ, not of DoTA.) This leads into...
Nachomamma8 has claimed a Governor role, where he can pardon a lynch choice, sending us to night with their affiliation being publicly revealed by the mod. There has also been debate over the best way to use this, but Nacho has stated that he will pardon someone if we end up being wrong about the vote-redirection thing.
7hawk77 (currently absent) claimed that he was told rules that may or may not be in the game, including specifically one that roles can override rules. It is unclear what use this is.
Bur has been V/LA for a while, but should be back around Monday.
D_V is able to post and vote in the game, but cannot currently be voted for. He will likely be joining us fully at some point.
Gentleman Johnny claims to be masoned with another player who is not yet in the game. He has been conversing with her, and there is a possibility that she will enter the game at some point. They are confirmed town to each other.
hansanator (currently absent) claimed that he is the reason the game started with Day 2 showing. D_V has stated that, despite the thread showing Day 2, it is not actually Day 2.
Jobie, imabusinessman, and leukovirus have all asked to replace out.
Necarg has the ability to edit his posts, and has been doing so instead of making new posts when he has something to respond to.
Azrael is outside of the game and cannot vote or be voted for, but may post. He has some knowledge of an older version of the setup, but has his own agenda, involving players selling him their heart, mind, or soul - with his expressed preference being for souls. See here for his claim, with some clarification here. DoTArchon has already arranged a deal for today, trading his soul for an investigation ability of some kind.
Players not listed are currently playing the game, with no explicitly claimed abilities that I can remember.
Well this is going to be ugly. Also, looks like we're spinning our wheels a bit longer...
Honestly, I'm not up to putting the effort in. The inbound modkills might end the day, they might not, but either way that's going to change the tenor of the game entirely. I just feel like we're spinning our wheels, and can't be arsed to reread you before then.
Well... not 'just', no. Because at some point in our discussion you realized that this happened. I don't believe that this happened between 1133, where you made your last attempt to defend yourself, and 1137, where you admit to having forgotten. That means that you realized your mistake, and still tried to hide it, and I don't like that.
You referenced MvW Classic in your post immediately before this one, and after taking a look at that game - which featured multiple scum factions, and neutrals who cared about living long enough to see one of the factions wiped out - I can see how town!GJ could have made post 994; I can even see how town!GJ could forget about that and make post 1023 afterwards. I do not, however, like the mindset that was demonstrated when you tried to cover up your mistake. I also don't like the way you keep hiding behind your claim, as though it means you aren't deserving of any suspicion or questioning.
All told, this isn't enough for me to want you dead now, but you are on my radar for the future, and that pinging will get stronger the longer you are flying solo.
Okay then!
As if we didn't have enough WIFOM!
For the record, I'm less sure now. I was fine with 2-3 more modkills on top of Tapping's, but I think we're actually at 6 - Darth Melvin, Jobie, imab, lueko, Hawk, and hansa. I'm still willing to keep playing, but with this many players being removed from the game, I'd prefer to leave it up to the mod's discretion on whether or not the game is still worth spending our time on.
Hey, it isn't my fault you're giving me multiple sets of lines to read between.
So when you said that you would be "REAVEALED......AND...CONFIRMED", what you actually meant was that your counterpart would enter the thread and be willing to vouch for you. This is not being revealed - that word implies some level of mod involvement. It also, in my opinion, isn't being 100% confirmed - not in a game called Mind Screw, that the mod has stated has bastard mod elements.
Additionally, you've stated that you don't even know what will cause your other half to enter the game, which means that you apparently expect us to treat you as confirmed town for mechanical reasons that may never be confirmable. I'm willing to give you some slack based on your claim, but I'm not just going to completely ignore you when what you are saying contradicts itself.
You quoted this section of my post but did not respond to it in any way. Are you planning to?
Why not today?
You are once again saying things that do not match what you said earlier. Your claim was:
In 994, you said that you were confirmed to this mysterious other player / voice, not that you would be publicly revealed as townie. Which is it?
Interestingly, 994 is also the post in which you compared "town-aligned neutral"!Tapping to "regular neutral"!Tapping - the other thing that you're currently being inconsistent about.
In 994, though, you didn't say that you could see the signs for neutral. You specifically said that you could see the signs for "town aligned neutral", as opposed to the regular kind of neutral. And then you promptly changed your stance on that, and tried to ignore my questions about why. This is really starting to remind me of the interaction I had with Tapping over the use of Nacho's ability - an inconsistent mindset, then trying to cover up the evidence of that inconsistency.
Apparently you felt the need to draw our attention to this fact - that it was deserving of its own post. Are you interested in telling us why?
Distinctly untrue. I even quoted what you'd said:
In 994 you explicitly compared "town aligned neutral"!Tapping to "actual neutral"!Tapping. Not, as you are trying to say here, neutral!Tapping vs scum!Tapping.
Going forward from that, in 1022 I asked you to expand on 994; your response, in 1023, did compare neutral!Tapping to scum!Tapping. But that was more replacing what you'd said earlier than explaining it.
I'm just going to ask straight up: are you hydra'd with this other voice of yours, so that she is able to post from your account? Her posting 994 and you responding with 1023 would explain why you didn't even remember your earlier position - it wasn't actually yours. If that isn't the case, then I find your lack of consistency to be very suspicious.
The part that I bolded is a lie. Tapping claimed "town aligned neutral" in 983. Your next post in the game was 994, where you say this:
In this post, you explicitly contrast his claim of "town aligned neutral" with a regular neutral. In other words, you didn't miss that part of this claim. My clarification question to you also explicitly referenced it:
Given that you obviously saw the entirety of Tapping's claim, why are you trying to pretend otherwise?