You asked how it was better, and I explained it. I understand not ALL threats fall into the category of ones that get answered by Keg efficiently. But decks that run Keg? They're weak to aggro beaters and low-to-the-ground go-wide strategies. They're also weak to manlands. So Keg is a clean answer to the things your deck is weak against. Plus, it's a good answer to moxen and fast mana. Disk is terrible against all the cards that Keg is efficient at answering. Which also happens to be the kinds of cards those decks have weaknnesses against. Smaller numbers of bigger, slower threats are not an issue for most control decks. So I don't need Disk. I'm weak to tokens, manlands, explosive artifact mana and aggro beaters ...all the things that Disk is just unacceptably bad at answering.
Disk was a fun card in superfriends decks where it was legitimately asymmetrical, but ended up getting cut from the cube because it simply wasn't good in control anymore. It was too bad against all the things my deck needed help tackling.
You explained why Keg variants are better than Disk in a limited situation, sure. You keep mentioning manlands like they're super prevalent and a huge threat. Maybe in your cube, but I have a handful total and in any given game maybe an opponent has 1 or 2 at most in their entire deck? Same for moxes or other 0 cost threats. And that is my biggest problem with Keg variants, how limited the blast is when you trigger it. For Disk, I like it because it will hit all of their threats and allow my quicker rebuild to take control of the game. Aggro decks are usually more quickly into top-deck mode and what you see on the field is what they have, so if you can destroy all of that with one card...it is surprising to me how that could not be seen as quite powerful.
These keg being better situations you mention just seem far less common than my personal experiences, but if Keg variants are better for your cube then it is what it is.
Powder Keg can kill all Moxes, tokens and manlands immediately, and can also be used to wipe out specific CMCs instead of all permanents (which is often an advantage). It also costs half the mana...
When you need to stop a pair of 1-drops from beating you down, waiting until T5 to kill them both isn't a viable option. Plus, I may want to leave my 3/4cc permanents alone, and I can't do that with Disk.
But not all threats in cube are 1/1 tokens or 1 drops. In fact, most threats are much bigger and have higher casting costs, and a Keg variant would be a dead draw against those. Disk has a purpose and place in the right decks and right situations, despite it's "slow" (1 turn) activation time.
Disc taking a turn to come online is too bad for a modern cube. Too telegraphed, and too slow. I've never missed cutting it.
If you want a non-creature artifact that effects the board, all the powder keg variants are better, as is blast zone as a land. Also, Tangle Wire is a much more interesting board-impacting artifact IMO.
How is Powder Keg a better variant if the main complaint is that Disk is too slow? Powder keg takes far longer, is limited in its targets based on number of turns/counters, and is even more telegraphed...I am confused by the criticism of Disk but praise of Powder keg variants...
Keg gets tokens and manlands immediately. That's pretty strong. Bomb is slow, but being able to hit what you want to hit with little damage to your own stuff is good. No 'walkers makes Disk even less attractive to me because it's harder to break the symmetry of it. I only run Explosives and Keg now, and don't see that changing anytime. Keg hitting the manlands is mostly what keeps it around.
Cheers,
rant
Yes but you could say the same about Upheaval for example but the idea of course is you are playing it with a situation where you can recover more quickly than your opponent. If you are getting slapped around, it is a back breaker and completely changes the game in your favor.
I don’t think I’d add this even if I doubled my colorless section.
The delay is so bad, and unfortunately the anti-synergies often outweigh the synergies in a control deck.
The opponent has to have a way to kill it in one turn or board is reset. Just no other card in cube that has the same effect, and it makes for some really fun games in my experience.
It's too slow these days. Additionally, it wipes out your mana rock and other stuff. Leaves walkers behind, which can be both a benefit and a drawback. I like Powder Keg, Ratchet Bomb, and Engineered Explosives over it these days. They can take out tokens immediately and are more customizable in what they hit. Out of all of these, the only one that is a must-run is Explosives IMO. I love Disk, but unless I went up to an enormous cube size, its days in my cube are done.
Cheers,
rant
No planeswalkers in my cube so this guy hits it all (besides lands obviously). Keg, Bomb and Explosives are OK, overrated in my opinion and do not hit everything to give you a fresh start if/when really needed like Disk. Talk about slow, Keg and Ratchet Bomb are ultra slow, so why would that not be a drawback for them but it is for Disk to have to wait one turn?
Another card that I am surprised to see is not agreed to be a clear-cut staple. The fun that this card brings to the game...I don't see it ever being cut.
I feel like in decks where overrun is used, overwhelming stampede will almost always be better, power creep has made it so i almost always have a 4+ power creature.
I just like Overrun because of the ability to make token decks absolutely nuts. Casting overrun with 4 or 5 1/1s is probably game over, whereas Overshelming Stampede requires you to have a 3 or 4 power creature to get the same or better.
Everyone still loving the cruise? We have had nothing but positive experiences and it is routinely cast for 3 or less to refill a hand. Surprised at how much love/hate it is getting in here!
Just chiming in to agree with Patrunkenphat and wtwlf. You need good threats for midrange and ramp decks, especially against control.
Cheers,
rant
That's fine to an extent I think, but a card that has zero interaction just seems unfun (and plays unfun for us at least). Shroud (and even worse, Hexproof) just reduces interaction in a game that is all about it. I agree that colors like green seem to be at the will of control decks at times and it is equally frustrating. I wish there was some middle ground, like fading counters on Hexproof ability, sort of a spawn protection for 1 or 2 turns.
Thoughts on that idea? Should I patent it before Wizards prints it in the next set?
Because tapping for C sucks... A land has to be insanely powerful to justify that kind of drawback, and Hollow just isn't.
Being able to regenerate any of your creatures for 1 green is not insanely powerful? With also the ability to tap for 1 colorless otherwise? In our group it is a beast, just very surprising that it is not viewed similarly here.
Garruk Wildspeaker does just about everything you want Overrun to do plus more. Overrun is good, but it's just not needed when you have more flexible options. Plus, the triple green can be an issue.
Cheers,
rant
That's fair, but unfortunately I do not run Planeswalkers. With that in mind, would you run Overrun or would you still not consider it a viable option?
What happened? Everyone loved him in 2012 but now he's a relic? I had always considered him a staple, but suppose Necropotence time is up in cube? If that is the case, Geralf's Messenger also should go?
Curious to get more thoughts on Yavimaya Hollow. Why would it not be in more cubes? To me it seems incredibly powerful and thought it was an important green land.
You explained why Keg variants are better than Disk in a limited situation, sure. You keep mentioning manlands like they're super prevalent and a huge threat. Maybe in your cube, but I have a handful total and in any given game maybe an opponent has 1 or 2 at most in their entire deck? Same for moxes or other 0 cost threats. And that is my biggest problem with Keg variants, how limited the blast is when you trigger it. For Disk, I like it because it will hit all of their threats and allow my quicker rebuild to take control of the game. Aggro decks are usually more quickly into top-deck mode and what you see on the field is what they have, so if you can destroy all of that with one card...it is surprising to me how that could not be seen as quite powerful.
These keg being better situations you mention just seem far less common than my personal experiences, but if Keg variants are better for your cube then it is what it is.
But not all threats in cube are 1/1 tokens or 1 drops. In fact, most threats are much bigger and have higher casting costs, and a Keg variant would be a dead draw against those. Disk has a purpose and place in the right decks and right situations, despite it's "slow" (1 turn) activation time.
How is Powder Keg a better variant if the main complaint is that Disk is too slow? Powder keg takes far longer, is limited in its targets based on number of turns/counters, and is even more telegraphed...I am confused by the criticism of Disk but praise of Powder keg variants...
Yes but you could say the same about Upheaval for example but the idea of course is you are playing it with a situation where you can recover more quickly than your opponent. If you are getting slapped around, it is a back breaker and completely changes the game in your favor.
The opponent has to have a way to kill it in one turn or board is reset. Just no other card in cube that has the same effect, and it makes for some really fun games in my experience.
No planeswalkers in my cube so this guy hits it all (besides lands obviously). Keg, Bomb and Explosives are OK, overrated in my opinion and do not hit everything to give you a fresh start if/when really needed like Disk. Talk about slow, Keg and Ratchet Bomb are ultra slow, so why would that not be a drawback for them but it is for Disk to have to wait one turn?
I just like Overrun because of the ability to make token decks absolutely nuts. Casting overrun with 4 or 5 1/1s is probably game over, whereas Overshelming Stampede requires you to have a 3 or 4 power creature to get the same or better.
That's fine to an extent I think, but a card that has zero interaction just seems unfun (and plays unfun for us at least). Shroud (and even worse, Hexproof) just reduces interaction in a game that is all about it. I agree that colors like green seem to be at the will of control decks at times and it is equally frustrating. I wish there was some middle ground, like fading counters on Hexproof ability, sort of a spawn protection for 1 or 2 turns.
Thoughts on that idea? Should I patent it before Wizards prints it in the next set?
Being able to regenerate any of your creatures for 1 green is not insanely powerful? With also the ability to tap for 1 colorless otherwise? In our group it is a beast, just very surprising that it is not viewed similarly here.
That's fair, but unfortunately I do not run Planeswalkers. With that in mind, would you run Overrun or would you still not consider it a viable option?