Hey guys, just wanted to post my decision on which version I'm going to play. It's the ED version with 4x Finale. Crashing Footfalls and Ancestral Vision provide the deck with the gas it needs. Finale is like icing on the cake. Plus, it's really fun to pilot.
I'm also a firm believer that borderposts still need to be in the deck. The ability to withdraw lands in the early turns without Garg is just too good. I've played against lots of tier decks and lots of random brews and I'm finding that I am doing better with posts than without. I tried 2 different strategies: 3x Garg/8x posts and 4x Garg/4x Call/3x Astrolabe. In the tutor version, I found I wasn't able to reduce land count enough before needing to Balance. They would just draw into 1 creature *cough Tarmogoyf* and then I'm on a clock again. In the posts version, I was able to keep their land count down to 1 if I didn't naturally find a Garg. I won't lie I did get blown out by Eldrazi tron and Karn a few times because I needed the posts color mana. All in all, my posts felt like they helped more than being able to tutor for Garg. A lot of the time I wasn't tutoring fast enough, or I didn't have the one extra red mana to suspend Garg AND Balance in the same turn. I'm going to stick with the 3x Garg/8x Posts that I'm running; that feels the best to me.
Next, card advantage is more than just drawing additional cards. For example Anger of the Gods against a bunch of Goblins + tokens could be spending 1 card to wipe out 6 permanents, or a 1-for-6. The Balance itself is insane for card advantage if you're properly set up for it. If you look at Snapcaster Mage the reason it's so good is that it provides more card advantage by giving you a 2/1 body, and allowing you to reuse a spell you've already played. Dark Confidant is a great example because normally it will give you several cards for only using 1 card. Thopter Spy Network is another fantastic example. Not only does it give a hard to remove enchantment, each turn it gives you a 1/1 flying body that also has the potential to keep you drawing more cards. It's pure card advantage.
As a midrange combo deck I feel like our card choices need to have a lot more value in them. For this reason I'm not looking at using counterspells. I'm looking at using threats which will need to be countered or removed. Counterspells are typically 1-for-1 exchanges and I don't think that's good enough.
This is why I really like Finale of Promise in the deck. It gives those already used spells a second chance to come back and get good value. Being able to count it as Balance 5-8 is really nice too.
Both are 2 card combos so they would be fairly easy to implement into the deck. The Spike Feeder/Heliod seems better because they wouldn't work against the Balance shell, but then infinite life won't win the game directly like infinite tokens will. Would only be 8 potential slots with maybe more for tutors. Could work in both versions of the deck? Thoughts?
@Loki - In my experience Thassa is a very reliable beater once her devotion is met. Typically, when she becomes a creature you'll also have at least 1 Ardent Plea on the field. I think Thassa is easily the best God for the deck because she is easier to turn into a creature than all the others. Her scry ability and her activated ability have both won me games before so I'm pretty fond of her.
As far as Klothys, Keranos, and Calix go, they seem too inconsistent to me. Calix isn't finding me enough answers because he only digs for 4. His -3 ability is too expensive. If it was -2 I'd continue testing but he ends up taking a dirt nap after the first -3 ability. Klothys and Keranos are nice and provide value but I haven't been able to build enough devotion for them. Their 'passive' abilities aren't strong enough to win the game on their own so I think there are better options out there.
Honestly, the more I play the ED version with Finale the more I'm liking it. I still can't decide which version I like more. I'm going to take a break from posting here and decide which version I'm going to go with. Good luck in your testing guys.
@SunTzu - Sorry my posts might seem a bit brash; it's not my intention at all. When I type out responses on here I normally end up writing about 1500 words and then I go through and take all the 'fluff' out to leave in the brunt of what I'm trying to say. I can see how that might come off as condescending. I have to edit out the stuff that makes it sound like I'm casually talking, otherwise my posts would be very long. I have to be careful because I can analyse things to the nth degree and I have to remember that people don't want to read huge blocks of text.
That said, I've played thousands of games with this deck - cascade and ED. The problems that both versions have are close to the same. There's no deck that's going to be good against every deck in the field, but Restore Balance is quite powerful. I really enjoy the way it plays. There's no other deck like it.
I'm completely with you that the deck can be built many different ways. That's one of the reasons I enjoy building lists and trying them out. We don't know for sure what the best way is.
What this deck really is lacking is card advantage. As a mid-range combo deck our only card that provides true card advantage is the Balance itself.
I believe there's 2 main 'roads' if you will for the deck to be optimal:
- Cascade
- ED with Finale and Vision/Footfalls
The other variants are just spread too thin imo. Some of my lists fall prey to this as well; I'm not perfect. We can't have all the best threats, all the best removal, and the best card advantage. There aren't enough card slots after lands and the Balance package. This is where I think the most difficult part of building this deck lies. The cascade version has further restrictions here because it has to play posts otherwise Balance doesn't get good CA. On top of that it also has the 3 CMC mana problem. The upside is that cascade itself is kind of a tutor for 0 mana which is really nice.
As mentioned before, nobody knows the best list. These are only my opinions.
First thing I notice is that your new list does not include Brain in a Jar. It seemed like you were very attached. Care to elaborate why you removed it?
I do like the Bontu's Reckoning and the Lilly package you have, but why aren't you running Fatal Push/Dismember? Also, no Abrupt Decay? Have you considered running an IoK/Thoughtseize package? I think that's one thing that hasn't been explored at all with the ED lists which should be. The ability to remove problem cards seems promising.
Since you're going to be competitive, let's take a look at some of the things you're going to have to beat in this meta:
- Spike Feeder + Heliod, Sun-Crowned. With BoP or Hierarch they can combo for infinite life on turn 3, turn 4 without.
- Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies. This one also needs another combo piece in some form but that's also a turn 3 combo.
- Infect throws down Glistener Elf on turn 1 and turn 2 you'll probably be dead with the pump spells they have. If it's Blighted Agent it's 1 turn slower.
- Ad Naus can combo turn 3 now with the help of Thassa's Oracle. The deck can also combo turn 2 on a nut hand.
- Storm can combo on turn 3 with a nut hand.
- Burn can kill you on turn 4 consistently, especially if they draw multiple Eidolons.
- Scapeshift now has Dryad of the Ilysian Grove which means they can Scapeshift on turn 4.
- Dredge has Ox of Agonas, Life from the Loam, and Narcomoeba to block Garg.
- Tron has turn 3 Karn/Ugin AND they can play Chalice for 0.
- Humans has Meddling Mage, Thalia, and Lavinia, Azorius Renegade.
- Death's Shadow has hand removal and Stubborn Denial, along with burn spells.
- Jund, well I'm not even going to go there.
How consistent is your 'full-combo'? Is it happening in 75%+ of your games, after sideboarding? If you're consistent even after sideboarding then maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see how your list is going to be consistent with 0 card draw and no way to find As Foretold. You're just praying that you get everything you need in your opening hand, and that the opponent doesn't disrupt you in some way. In a goldfish world, your deck looks fine. Against a competitive meta, I'm just not seeing it. Those are my opinions though. Prove me wrong.
@SunTzu - I have to ask, when you play MTG, are you playing competitively or just for fun? That makes a big difference. I understand your goal isn't to win against every list. No deck can win a majority of the time against a competitive field. When that happens, bans happen. What I'm trying to highlight is that your all-in combo isn't going to work against a majority of the decks present in Modern at the moment. I can give at least half a dozen examples if you like.
Lost Legacy/Bitterblossom aren't seeing play so we don't have to worry about them. We don't need to worry about cards until they start showing up. What we do have to worry about is surviving until we can actually Balance. In your case you must have tutors for Garg, Balance in hand, AND have a way to cast it, all before losing.
The problem with being so hyper focused is that you leave yourself vulnerable. Traditionally, decks that require 3 combo pieces in order to go off have a hard time. They're inconsistent, easy to disrupt, and can't adjust to changes in the meta. If you look back at all of the combo decks of the past they all have a few things in common. They make insane amounts of mana, they gain infinite life, deal infinite damage, draw infinite cards, or generate lots of tokens. This deck isn't doing that; it's doing the opposite.
You have many cards in your deck that aren't doing anything. Ghostly Prison isn't helping you gain consistency. Neither is your trinket/Karn package. Bauble is just replacing itself. I'd actually rather see you go back to Scheming + Codex than run Prison and Bauble. The mana trinkets aren't getting you anywhere. They give you 4 mana on turn 3, when you only need 3. Karn isn't doing anything other than being a chump blocker. Fact or Fiction is too slow.
You should add Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand to your list as 4 ofs. Storm needs both of them and so does Ad Nauseam. In order for a combo deck to work in Modern, they have to have draw fixing. Using Jar, you also have the advantage of not needing double red for ED. I think at some point you'll find that needing 4 colors to suspend Garg, play Call, and play cantrips/As Foretold is going to cost you. Not having Mox Opal really cramps your land selection and you've circumvented that by using trinkets and Glimmervoid. I would like to see you tweak the lands in a way that you're playing less fetches/shocks, and still be able to cast everything you need to, instead of relying on Bauble + Glimmervoid. The fetches are just making your burn matchup worse, but you do need some kind of color fixing. Pentad Prism wouldn't be a bad idea because you could pitch it to Garg after you've removed your counters. The drawback of changing your lands and removing the trinkets is that you'll be crushed by Blood Moon, but that's a risk you should take imo.
I still disagree on being a combo deck but I know that's what you really enjoy so I'm trying to help you improve that aspect of your deck.
Edit: Please find a way to add SSG to your list. That will give you the option of Balancing sooner.
@SunTzu - I'm not sure how to word my thoughts here without being too edgy. My hope is that I can show you to think more exponential and not lineal. If I come off as aggressive or diminishing that's not my intention at all. My intention is to help show you some valuable lessons I've learned playing the deck, and guide you to a better version.
That said, the problem with most of your lists is they only work on unsuspecting opponents. I get that you're 'all-in' on the Garg+Balance combo. It feels wonderful to 'full Balance' and attack with a Garg twice and just win. The problem is, you expect every game to go like this. The reality is, a good player playing a good deck is going to be able to stop/slow you down AND play their strategy, which is going to result in more losses than wins.
I'm going to highlight some potential weaknesses you'll have to overcome in order to win more games than lose.
- Burn - you have no methods of lifegain, 5 fetch lands, and no ways of protecting your life points other than Balancing
- Turn 1 Thoughtseize - taking your Garg/Call/Balance - if they remove even one of your combo pieces you rely on drawing lucky to survive, let alone win
- 7 ways to cast Balance - if one gets countered you have no backup plan
- Ghostly Prison - burn, combo decks (Ad Naus, Storm, infinite damage combos, etc) and control won't care about Prison
- Counterspells - What if I (opponent) counter just 1 Balance? Can you still put pressure on me before I win the game?
- Enemy Walkers - You have no way of removing a Liliana of the Veil. She can +1 all day against you and then ultimate and repeat.
- Only wincon of Garg/Karn critters - if someone plays Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge against you how do you win??
Next, I'll go over some anti-synergies in your own deck that you might not see.
- Jar - I know you like it, but it's bad. You HAVE to have a suspended Garg or your combo doesn't work. This is foolish. You can't guarantee that in 100% of games you can suspend Garg. It is VERY possible to go an entire match without seeing those 7 cards. Even if you bump up Call to 4x, there's still a good chance you never get the opportunity to find it. Even if you run Serum Powder there's a chance you won't see Garg.
- Karn - You only have 1 sideboard target which again requires that you must have Garg suspended. If you don't have Garg/Balance, Karn does nothing for you. You don't have any ways of protecting him. You're going to win with Signets and Talismans which would be 2/2's? You only have 7 in the deck too, so you're not going to have a little army.
- As Foretold - There's only 1 card in the deck getting value from this, and that is Balance. The true power of As Foretold comes from being able to wipe the board completely (with or without Garg) and still be able to cast spells with it. Playing trinkets which don't do anything, or tutoring for Garg is not what this card is for. If you're getting it up to 4 counters for Karn/FoF then you should have already won. Why not include more of the suspend cards? Ancestral Vision is still a draw 3 for 0. Crashing Footfalls makes 8 power for 0. Think about it. Those cards are very threatening for an opponent.
- Mishra's Bauble - Why is this here? You're not getting any card advantage from it. It's just replacing itself. You can't tell me that Bauble+Fetch is going to win you the game. Those 4 slots could be used for Lightning Bolt, Assassin's Trophy, or a threat which will actually win the game.
My advice for anyone wanting to play this deck, when building this deck you need to think about what an opponent is going to do in order to get around Balance. Nearly every deck in the format has answers for us, so we must have answers for them. We also need to take into account what is actually threatening in our lists. Having a clear board after a Balance isn't threatening at all, it just slows the game down. If I could recommend anything, try a list with many threats and basic Balance package. It's going to be awkward to play, but you'll see dependable threats will win you games even without Balance. Good cards win games.
A few cards that haven't been mentioned much which could be very good for us:
- Fulminator Mage - 2/2 body which can be removed at a moment's notice so it works well with Balance.
- Veil of Summer - Nobody has mentioned this as a way to combat counterspells. I'm thinking this has to be a staple sideboard choice for ED lists
- Huntmaster of the Fells - This card is a sleeper and I loved playing it in my cascade version. On a clean board I'd rather have Huntmaster than Garg. Flipped version is Ravager of the Fells.
- Indestructible God creatures - They work well with pre-Balance boards since they often won't be creatures until late game. Only work with posts though, but they are indestructible wincons otherwise. Klothys, Thassa, and Keranos are my best picks.
- Kitchen Finks - This one is really cool with Garg suspended. You can either just gain 4 and remove 2 counters or it's a 3/2 body. It's a really good chump blocker which does a fine job at stalling 2 turns until you can Balance.
P.S. For every Balance player - The rise of Wrenn and Six is going to make this deck REALLY hard to pilot. The deck HAS to have maindeck answers. His +1 insures they can rebuild at 1 land per turn. This must be addressed moving forward.
Mox was better in other decks in my humble opinion. We still have Simian and if we want to try it, Gemstone Caverns.
I do have to admit I'm a bit sad about Opal. I'm so relieved though because I was going to buy a playset in paper. That saved me around $400!
Time will tell what the meta brings. I think regular (not Eldrazi) tron is going to make a comeback. Big Karn is rising in price. Amulet of Vigor is rising as well. Liliana of the Veil is seeing increases as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if Jund makes a comeback which is a heavy sigh over here. I hate playing Balance against Jund. Especially a good Jund player. Ah well, we'll see.
For our deck I don't think they could be any better. With Opal & Lattice now gone, we won't be seeing much of Karn. Oko gone is just icing on the cake.
As for what to do now, we'll have to see how the meta changes.
Myself, I don't think I'm going to change my strategy much. Might try out Eladamri's with a God package since they're indestructible. It will be interesting to see what decks are good after the bannings. I wouldn't be surprised if burn and control become bigger.
Chalice of the Void, which most Tron variants run 4 of. If they drop one first game, you have no way to win. Right now, they normally play Chalice on 1. If the deck ever becomes tournament worthy, people will learn to drop Chalice on 0 against us.
Next - BUG artifacts. They run Teferi in the sideboard. Turn 1 land ->Gilded Goose, turn 2 land -> tap both & use Goose to throw out Teferi. A good player is going to know what you're up to and hold countermagic.
Another good example - Humans. Meddling Mage on turn 2 naming Restore Balance, with Thalia protection. They also have Aether Vial which combats Balance very well.
Last example - Death's Shadow with Stubborn Denial. They can be ready with a 4/4 Shadow on turn 3 with Denial backup.
All of these decks have fantastic options against us in game 1. With your list how do you sideboard against all these decks? You have to remove combo pieces, which reduce consistency. They bring in a little more hate which doesn't take away from their general strategy.
After playing the cascade version for years, I know that any Balance deck needs more than 2 wincons. This is my opinion but I'm not going to budge from it. The deck needs a backup plan. Hoping that they don't draw into their hate isn't going to cut it. Reducing the consistency of our own deck in order to interact isn't going to cut it. My two cents.
I’m not sure where you’re buying your cards but a full set of Sanctity is around $20 now. They used to be ridiculous a while back but they’ve come down a lot. Quite reasonable now.
With Force we could pitch excess blue borderposts, Oko, Teferi, multiple copies of As Foretold, and of course Remand. The list I’m toying with right now has 17 blue cards. I’m thinking 3 Force is probably the most I’d want to run anyways.
Playing Teferi I wouldn’t be too worried about counterspells. And I’m not sure why you’d think Balance would wipe him off the board. For clarification I’m referring to Teferi, Time Raveler. His passive ability makes it so opponents aren’t able to play instants.
Thanks for the comments guys, I've been considering going back to the cascade version and throwing in Force of Negation, as well as Teferi and Oko. They're just so good in the format right now. Having an Electro version with borderposts isn't really interacting like I thought it would. The deck still tries to play like the cascade version. Granted, there are moments when it plays like the Electro version but the posts aren't helping tremendously in those situations.
That said, counterspells continue to be the bane of the deck. Discard, burn, planeswalkers, gy stuff can all be dealt with. Outside of Defense Grid or Teferi though, we can't do anything against counterspells. Teferi is a must-counter card for control players. Because of this I'm going to test having 2 in the main and 2 more in the side to help against any control with blue in it.
I agree with Loki in that you don't see artifact hate until game 2, unless they use Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay in game 1. Karn is a thing though and I've seen a lot more of him than tradition artifact hate.
@SunTzu - I understand where you're at with posts. They do have limitations. The upside is to not be so reliant on Garg. End game for this version begins after the first Balance and when you can drop a walker. It's a huge uphill battle for any opponent to come back from that. I don't need to worry about Balancing after turn 6 if I've got a walker or two down, typically. I also don't have problems with having too many cards in hand either. The highest CMC card is 4, and there's only 5 of them. In those situations where I have to pitch cards with Balance if my remaining 1-2 cards are walkers I'm in really good shape, even if I need to draw another land to play one.
My opponent will normally have 0-1 land, 1 card in hand, and no creatures. I have 2-3 mana on the board, and a walker as my last card. It's a much much better situation to be in. Also, I would rather let garg sit in suspend for a while than pitch all my mana just to draw a walker the next turn. Walkers enhance the board position by a ton. They provide options that are normally better post-Balance and they also serve as a threat that the opponent has to deal with before beating us.
Now, I've been considering a Mox Opal package as well for a while. The issue with it is there's only really 3 artifacts you want to run. Mox Opal, Arcum's Astrolabe, and Mishra's Bauble. What makes BUG artifacts so great is the artifacts for them serve double duty. Emry, Lurker of the Loch brings back Bauble all the time. Urza, Lord High Artificer makes any of them tap for U. Oko can turn them into 3/3 Elk to protect himself. In this list they're basically just there to support metalcraft. We can't get full value out of them like BUG can. As far as I'm concerned, for this deck, Mox Opal can only be used in conjunction with a borderpost package. There aren't enough other artifacts that mimic what the Balance deck is trying to do. Sure you could argue that you could throw in Pithing Needle and Grafdigger's Cage but honestly I think those are best as sideboard cards. Since I'm also running Karn, I can tutor for them in game 1 if I need to as well.
Loki, I think you might consider looking at Leyline of Sanctity in your sideboard for those black matchups. It has always been really valuable to me against decks that run more than just 4 Thoughtseize. If they're packing IoK as well, Leyline is a HUGE help.
Lastly, I think I want to mention that in my opinion I think a Teferi, Oko, and Force of Negation package is almost a must. Yeah they're expensive either online or in paper but they're just really good cards. Teferi is good against counterspells, and playing an instant speed Balance off As Foretold is hot. Oko is good against pretty much everything. Force is a good way for either version to protect itself against any must-answer threat. As a plus, having 8 posts that pitch to it is pretty cool.
I'm going to add these in and see what I come up with.
Hey Loki, no worries about being too harsh. I can take it
The inclusion of posts is primarily there to keep the land count down and give me more resources post-Balance. I would rather not rely on Garg to be able to Balance all my opponents lands away. Post-balance if I have 2-3 posts and a land I'm in business to play any card in the deck.
As far as Tezz goes, I won a lot of games at my LGS having him on board after a Balance. Not only do you give yourself a 5/5 beater on a clean board, but Tezz also threatens to win the game. Admittedly when I was playing Tezz I was also played a single copy of each sword (before the new ones). Being able to equip a 5/5 post with any sword provides huge value. This list doesn't have the swords however. My cascade version included Thassa and Kitchen Finks and a sword equipped to either was always nice.
I'm not worried about my creatures being removed once I've Balanced. It's near impossible for an opponent to deal with a 5/5 beater the turn after a Balance, if you've removed all of their lands. The posts make this more probable. The Electro list is so focused on Balancing with Garg that after a Balance it doesn't have mana to rebuild.
Imagine this scenario. Turn 1-3 my opponent dumps hand full of creatures, leaving 1 card in hand. On my turn 1-3 I'm going to take some damage from the creatures but let's say I'm able to throw out 2 posts and suspend a Garg. On my turn 3 I play a third post, and Electro-Balance leaving just 1 card in each of our hands and my last card is an Oko. On my turn 4 Oko comes down and turns a post into a 3/3 Elk. Turn 5 comes and I can turn another post into an Elk and swing for 6. My next turn I can turn the third post into an Elk and if they try to remove any of them I'll just pitch to Garg. It just seems really good to me. A similar scenario can be played out with Tezz except he creates 5/5s.
As far as Karn is concerned, he's just really good against the BUG artifact deck on his own. He also provides some sideboard options like Pithing Needle or Bridge for matches where it's close. Liquimetal Coating is kind of a win-more card but I think it could be quite useful post-Balance. Being able to Strip Mine every turn seems like it's going to be impossible for any deck to come back.
I included Alpine Moon for tron mostly. Blood Moon without SSG is too slow. If you're on the draw against tron and they have natural turn 3 tron they're going to play a Karn/Ugin/Wurmcoil and by that time Blood Moon is too late. Alpine Moon would disrupt that even on the draw. Even with Eldrazi Temple you can disrupt them from playing a turn 3 Reality Smasher on the draw.
So you would like to see me remove the posts, SB-artifact package and the Karn/Tezz. What would you recommend going in their place?
I'm not sure 12 posts is the right number. Honestly I feel like 8-9 is best so artifact hate isn't a complete blowout. Also, 12 posts and 19 lands seems a bit much. Been so long though I forgot how many lands I need. I wanted to keep the artifact count somewhat high since they remove our lands, work with Tezz, and generally play well for the deck.
I have Remand in there for card draw and stall. The planeswalker package I carefully considered for a few reasons.
Karn - he's good against BUG artifacts/affinity/etc, also if you are able to tutor a Liquimetal Coating after a Balance it will ensure the opponent will never get to have more than 1 land, being able to tutor for a Pithing Needle, Bridge, or Cage helps specific matchups
Oko - the creature interactions, and Food tokens can be lifegain for matchups where a few life points is the difference between a win and a loss.
Tezzeret - ultimate is lifegain, also turns posts into blockers or potential beaters, typically it's a 'must counter' kind of card too
Ajani - lifegain, locks down permanents, removes Elk creatures from Oko if they're both out and ultimate helps make sure they don't rebuild after a Balance
I considered a great deal more walkers but had to keep the objective in mind. Balance away the board, then dominate with walkers. I feel like many opponents are going to concede if you Balance the board clean and then play a walker the next turn. If you have 2 walkers out after a Balance I feel like 90% of opponents are going to concede once the second one drops. Part of my thought process was thinking about how difficult it would be for an opponent after having any 2 of them on the board at once.
With Narset out they're only able to draw 1 card each turn. With Wheel it's essentially "discard your hand and draw 1 card" while you refill your entire hand.
The only issue is being able to play them both at once. Otherwise there's a good chance they'll just destroy Narset somehow.
The deck I saw it played in also played Fires of Invention, which I thought was cool but I'm not sure is good enough to be competitive.
I'm also a firm believer that borderposts still need to be in the deck. The ability to withdraw lands in the early turns without Garg is just too good. I've played against lots of tier decks and lots of random brews and I'm finding that I am doing better with posts than without. I tried 2 different strategies: 3x Garg/8x posts and 4x Garg/4x Call/3x Astrolabe. In the tutor version, I found I wasn't able to reduce land count enough before needing to Balance. They would just draw into 1 creature *cough Tarmogoyf* and then I'm on a clock again. In the posts version, I was able to keep their land count down to 1 if I didn't naturally find a Garg. I won't lie I did get blown out by Eldrazi tron and Karn a few times because I needed the posts color mana. All in all, my posts felt like they helped more than being able to tutor for Garg. A lot of the time I wasn't tutoring fast enough, or I didn't have the one extra red mana to suspend Garg AND Balance in the same turn. I'm going to stick with the 3x Garg/8x Posts that I'm running; that feels the best to me.
Next, card advantage is more than just drawing additional cards. For example Anger of the Gods against a bunch of Goblins + tokens could be spending 1 card to wipe out 6 permanents, or a 1-for-6. The Balance itself is insane for card advantage if you're properly set up for it. If you look at Snapcaster Mage the reason it's so good is that it provides more card advantage by giving you a 2/1 body, and allowing you to reuse a spell you've already played. Dark Confidant is a great example because normally it will give you several cards for only using 1 card. Thopter Spy Network is another fantastic example. Not only does it give a hard to remove enchantment, each turn it gives you a 1/1 flying body that also has the potential to keep you drawing more cards. It's pure card advantage.
As a midrange combo deck I feel like our card choices need to have a lot more value in them. For this reason I'm not looking at using counterspells. I'm looking at using threats which will need to be countered or removed. Counterspells are typically 1-for-1 exchanges and I don't think that's good enough.
This is why I really like Finale of Promise in the deck. It gives those already used spells a second chance to come back and get good value. Being able to count it as Balance 5-8 is really nice too.
I would like your thoughts on adding an infinite combo to the deck. There are 2 I want to mention:
- Felidar Guardian & Saheeli Rai - infinite damage via infinite tokens
- Heliod, Sun-Crowned & Spike Feeder - infinite life
Both are 2 card combos so they would be fairly easy to implement into the deck. The Spike Feeder/Heliod seems better because they wouldn't work against the Balance shell, but then infinite life won't win the game directly like infinite tokens will. Would only be 8 potential slots with maybe more for tutors. Could work in both versions of the deck? Thoughts?
As far as Klothys, Keranos, and Calix go, they seem too inconsistent to me. Calix isn't finding me enough answers because he only digs for 4. His -3 ability is too expensive. If it was -2 I'd continue testing but he ends up taking a dirt nap after the first -3 ability. Klothys and Keranos are nice and provide value but I haven't been able to build enough devotion for them. Their 'passive' abilities aren't strong enough to win the game on their own so I think there are better options out there.
Honestly, the more I play the ED version with Finale the more I'm liking it. I still can't decide which version I like more. I'm going to take a break from posting here and decide which version I'm going to go with. Good luck in your testing guys.
That said, I've played thousands of games with this deck - cascade and ED. The problems that both versions have are close to the same. There's no deck that's going to be good against every deck in the field, but Restore Balance is quite powerful. I really enjoy the way it plays. There's no other deck like it.
I'm completely with you that the deck can be built many different ways. That's one of the reasons I enjoy building lists and trying them out. We don't know for sure what the best way is.
What this deck really is lacking is card advantage. As a mid-range combo deck our only card that provides true card advantage is the Balance itself.
I believe there's 2 main 'roads' if you will for the deck to be optimal:
- Cascade
- ED with Finale and Vision/Footfalls
The other variants are just spread too thin imo. Some of my lists fall prey to this as well; I'm not perfect. We can't have all the best threats, all the best removal, and the best card advantage. There aren't enough card slots after lands and the Balance package. This is where I think the most difficult part of building this deck lies. The cascade version has further restrictions here because it has to play posts otherwise Balance doesn't get good CA. On top of that it also has the 3 CMC mana problem. The upside is that cascade itself is kind of a tutor for 0 mana which is really nice.
As mentioned before, nobody knows the best list. These are only my opinions.
The idea is using Calix, Destiny's Hand as a wincon with the indestructible God cards. I'm thinking Thassa, God of the Sea, Klothys, God of Destiny, and Keranos, God of Storms.
Since you're already using Detention Sphere and Ardent Plea, I was curious about your thoughts on this walker.
He may be too cute and his ult might be too difficult to pull off but his + and - abilities seem like they could be useful.
I do like the Bontu's Reckoning and the Lilly package you have, but why aren't you running Fatal Push/Dismember? Also, no Abrupt Decay? Have you considered running an IoK/Thoughtseize package? I think that's one thing that hasn't been explored at all with the ED lists which should be. The ability to remove problem cards seems promising.
Since you're going to be competitive, let's take a look at some of the things you're going to have to beat in this meta:
- Spike Feeder + Heliod, Sun-Crowned. With BoP or Hierarch they can combo for infinite life on turn 3, turn 4 without.
- Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies. This one also needs another combo piece in some form but that's also a turn 3 combo.
- Infect throws down Glistener Elf on turn 1 and turn 2 you'll probably be dead with the pump spells they have. If it's Blighted Agent it's 1 turn slower.
- Ad Naus can combo turn 3 now with the help of Thassa's Oracle. The deck can also combo turn 2 on a nut hand.
- Storm can combo on turn 3 with a nut hand.
- Burn can kill you on turn 4 consistently, especially if they draw multiple Eidolons.
- Scapeshift now has Dryad of the Ilysian Grove which means they can Scapeshift on turn 4.
- Dredge has Ox of Agonas, Life from the Loam, and Narcomoeba to block Garg.
- Tron has turn 3 Karn/Ugin AND they can play Chalice for 0.
- Humans has Meddling Mage, Thalia, and Lavinia, Azorius Renegade.
- Death's Shadow has hand removal and Stubborn Denial, along with burn spells.
- Jund, well I'm not even going to go there.
How consistent is your 'full-combo'? Is it happening in 75%+ of your games, after sideboarding? If you're consistent even after sideboarding then maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see how your list is going to be consistent with 0 card draw and no way to find As Foretold. You're just praying that you get everything you need in your opening hand, and that the opponent doesn't disrupt you in some way. In a goldfish world, your deck looks fine. Against a competitive meta, I'm just not seeing it. Those are my opinions though. Prove me wrong.
Lost Legacy/Bitterblossom aren't seeing play so we don't have to worry about them. We don't need to worry about cards until they start showing up. What we do have to worry about is surviving until we can actually Balance. In your case you must have tutors for Garg, Balance in hand, AND have a way to cast it, all before losing.
The problem with being so hyper focused is that you leave yourself vulnerable. Traditionally, decks that require 3 combo pieces in order to go off have a hard time. They're inconsistent, easy to disrupt, and can't adjust to changes in the meta. If you look back at all of the combo decks of the past they all have a few things in common. They make insane amounts of mana, they gain infinite life, deal infinite damage, draw infinite cards, or generate lots of tokens. This deck isn't doing that; it's doing the opposite.
You have many cards in your deck that aren't doing anything. Ghostly Prison isn't helping you gain consistency. Neither is your trinket/Karn package. Bauble is just replacing itself. I'd actually rather see you go back to Scheming + Codex than run Prison and Bauble. The mana trinkets aren't getting you anywhere. They give you 4 mana on turn 3, when you only need 3. Karn isn't doing anything other than being a chump blocker. Fact or Fiction is too slow.
You should add Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand to your list as 4 ofs. Storm needs both of them and so does Ad Nauseam. In order for a combo deck to work in Modern, they have to have draw fixing. Using Jar, you also have the advantage of not needing double red for ED. I think at some point you'll find that needing 4 colors to suspend Garg, play Call, and play cantrips/As Foretold is going to cost you. Not having Mox Opal really cramps your land selection and you've circumvented that by using trinkets and Glimmervoid. I would like to see you tweak the lands in a way that you're playing less fetches/shocks, and still be able to cast everything you need to, instead of relying on Bauble + Glimmervoid. The fetches are just making your burn matchup worse, but you do need some kind of color fixing. Pentad Prism wouldn't be a bad idea because you could pitch it to Garg after you've removed your counters. The drawback of changing your lands and removing the trinkets is that you'll be crushed by Blood Moon, but that's a risk you should take imo.
I still disagree on being a combo deck but I know that's what you really enjoy so I'm trying to help you improve that aspect of your deck.
Edit: Please find a way to add SSG to your list. That will give you the option of Balancing sooner.
That said, the problem with most of your lists is they only work on unsuspecting opponents. I get that you're 'all-in' on the Garg+Balance combo. It feels wonderful to 'full Balance' and attack with a Garg twice and just win. The problem is, you expect every game to go like this. The reality is, a good player playing a good deck is going to be able to stop/slow you down AND play their strategy, which is going to result in more losses than wins.
I'm going to highlight some potential weaknesses you'll have to overcome in order to win more games than lose.
- Burn - you have no methods of lifegain, 5 fetch lands, and no ways of protecting your life points other than Balancing
- Turn 1 Thoughtseize - taking your Garg/Call/Balance - if they remove even one of your combo pieces you rely on drawing lucky to survive, let alone win
- 7 ways to cast Balance - if one gets countered you have no backup plan
- Ghostly Prison - burn, combo decks (Ad Naus, Storm, infinite damage combos, etc) and control won't care about Prison
- Counterspells - What if I (opponent) counter just 1 Balance? Can you still put pressure on me before I win the game?
- Enemy Walkers - You have no way of removing a Liliana of the Veil. She can +1 all day against you and then ultimate and repeat.
- Only wincon of Garg/Karn critters - if someone plays Ghostly Prison/Ensnaring Bridge against you how do you win??
Next, I'll go over some anti-synergies in your own deck that you might not see.
- Jar - I know you like it, but it's bad. You HAVE to have a suspended Garg or your combo doesn't work. This is foolish. You can't guarantee that in 100% of games you can suspend Garg. It is VERY possible to go an entire match without seeing those 7 cards. Even if you bump up Call to 4x, there's still a good chance you never get the opportunity to find it. Even if you run Serum Powder there's a chance you won't see Garg.
- Karn - You only have 1 sideboard target which again requires that you must have Garg suspended. If you don't have Garg/Balance, Karn does nothing for you. You don't have any ways of protecting him. You're going to win with Signets and Talismans which would be 2/2's? You only have 7 in the deck too, so you're not going to have a little army.
- As Foretold - There's only 1 card in the deck getting value from this, and that is Balance. The true power of As Foretold comes from being able to wipe the board completely (with or without Garg) and still be able to cast spells with it. Playing trinkets which don't do anything, or tutoring for Garg is not what this card is for. If you're getting it up to 4 counters for Karn/FoF then you should have already won. Why not include more of the suspend cards? Ancestral Vision is still a draw 3 for 0. Crashing Footfalls makes 8 power for 0. Think about it. Those cards are very threatening for an opponent.
- Mishra's Bauble - Why is this here? You're not getting any card advantage from it. It's just replacing itself. You can't tell me that Bauble+Fetch is going to win you the game. Those 4 slots could be used for Lightning Bolt, Assassin's Trophy, or a threat which will actually win the game.
My advice for anyone wanting to play this deck, when building this deck you need to think about what an opponent is going to do in order to get around Balance. Nearly every deck in the format has answers for us, so we must have answers for them. We also need to take into account what is actually threatening in our lists. Having a clear board after a Balance isn't threatening at all, it just slows the game down. If I could recommend anything, try a list with many threats and basic Balance package. It's going to be awkward to play, but you'll see dependable threats will win you games even without Balance. Good cards win games.
A few cards that haven't been mentioned much which could be very good for us:
- Fulminator Mage - 2/2 body which can be removed at a moment's notice so it works well with Balance.
- Veil of Summer - Nobody has mentioned this as a way to combat counterspells. I'm thinking this has to be a staple sideboard choice for ED lists
- Huntmaster of the Fells - This card is a sleeper and I loved playing it in my cascade version. On a clean board I'd rather have Huntmaster than Garg. Flipped version is Ravager of the Fells.
- Indestructible God creatures - They work well with pre-Balance boards since they often won't be creatures until late game. Only work with posts though, but they are indestructible wincons otherwise. Klothys, Thassa, and Keranos are my best picks.
- Kitchen Finks - This one is really cool with Garg suspended. You can either just gain 4 and remove 2 counters or it's a 3/2 body. It's a really good chump blocker which does a fine job at stalling 2 turns until you can Balance.
P.S. For every Balance player - The rise of Wrenn and Six is going to make this deck REALLY hard to pilot. The deck HAS to have maindeck answers. His +1 insures they can rebuild at 1 land per turn. This must be addressed moving forward.
I do have to admit I'm a bit sad about Opal. I'm so relieved though because I was going to buy a playset in paper. That saved me around $400!
Time will tell what the meta brings. I think regular (not Eldrazi) tron is going to make a comeback. Big Karn is rising in price. Amulet of Vigor is rising as well. Liliana of the Veil is seeing increases as well, so I wouldn't be surprised if Jund makes a comeback which is a heavy sigh over here. I hate playing Balance against Jund. Especially a good Jund player. Ah well, we'll see.
For our deck I don't think they could be any better. With Opal & Lattice now gone, we won't be seeing much of Karn. Oko gone is just icing on the cake.
As for what to do now, we'll have to see how the meta changes.
Myself, I don't think I'm going to change my strategy much. Might try out Eladamri's with a God package since they're indestructible. It will be interesting to see what decks are good after the bannings. I wouldn't be surprised if burn and control become bigger.
It worries me being an 'all-in' combo deck. When I was playing my cascade version, a lot of my games didn't go according to plan. I got counterspelled, perfectly timed discard, or something like Thalia. There's also cards that you just can't handle.
Karn, the Great Creator, Stony Silence, Chalice of the Void, Teferi, Time Raveler, Ensnaring Bridge, Meddling Mage, to name a few. There's also a lot of cards that are quite threatening but aren't game ending like Spell Queller, Thought-knot Seer, Urza, Lord High Artificer, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Oko, Thief of Crowns to name a few.
Chalice of the Void, which most Tron variants run 4 of. If they drop one first game, you have no way to win. Right now, they normally play Chalice on 1. If the deck ever becomes tournament worthy, people will learn to drop Chalice on 0 against us.
Next - BUG artifacts. They run Teferi in the sideboard. Turn 1 land ->Gilded Goose, turn 2 land -> tap both & use Goose to throw out Teferi. A good player is going to know what you're up to and hold countermagic.
Another good example - Humans. Meddling Mage on turn 2 naming Restore Balance, with Thalia protection. They also have Aether Vial which combats Balance very well.
Last example - Death's Shadow with Stubborn Denial. They can be ready with a 4/4 Shadow on turn 3 with Denial backup.
All of these decks have fantastic options against us in game 1. With your list how do you sideboard against all these decks? You have to remove combo pieces, which reduce consistency. They bring in a little more hate which doesn't take away from their general strategy.
After playing the cascade version for years, I know that any Balance deck needs more than 2 wincons. This is my opinion but I'm not going to budge from it. The deck needs a backup plan. Hoping that they don't draw into their hate isn't going to cut it. Reducing the consistency of our own deck in order to interact isn't going to cut it. My two cents.
With Force we could pitch excess blue borderposts, Oko, Teferi, multiple copies of As Foretold, and of course Remand. The list I’m toying with right now has 17 blue cards. I’m thinking 3 Force is probably the most I’d want to run anyways.
Playing Teferi I wouldn’t be too worried about counterspells. And I’m not sure why you’d think Balance would wipe him off the board. For clarification I’m referring to Teferi, Time Raveler. His passive ability makes it so opponents aren’t able to play instants.
That said, counterspells continue to be the bane of the deck. Discard, burn, planeswalkers, gy stuff can all be dealt with. Outside of Defense Grid or Teferi though, we can't do anything against counterspells. Teferi is a must-counter card for control players. Because of this I'm going to test having 2 in the main and 2 more in the side to help against any control with blue in it.
I agree with Loki in that you don't see artifact hate until game 2, unless they use Assassin's Trophy or Abrupt Decay in game 1. Karn is a thing though and I've seen a lot more of him than tradition artifact hate.
@SunTzu - I understand where you're at with posts. They do have limitations. The upside is to not be so reliant on Garg. End game for this version begins after the first Balance and when you can drop a walker. It's a huge uphill battle for any opponent to come back from that. I don't need to worry about Balancing after turn 6 if I've got a walker or two down, typically. I also don't have problems with having too many cards in hand either. The highest CMC card is 4, and there's only 5 of them. In those situations where I have to pitch cards with Balance if my remaining 1-2 cards are walkers I'm in really good shape, even if I need to draw another land to play one.
My opponent will normally have 0-1 land, 1 card in hand, and no creatures. I have 2-3 mana on the board, and a walker as my last card. It's a much much better situation to be in. Also, I would rather let garg sit in suspend for a while than pitch all my mana just to draw a walker the next turn. Walkers enhance the board position by a ton. They provide options that are normally better post-Balance and they also serve as a threat that the opponent has to deal with before beating us.
Now, I've been considering a Mox Opal package as well for a while. The issue with it is there's only really 3 artifacts you want to run. Mox Opal, Arcum's Astrolabe, and Mishra's Bauble. What makes BUG artifacts so great is the artifacts for them serve double duty. Emry, Lurker of the Loch brings back Bauble all the time. Urza, Lord High Artificer makes any of them tap for U. Oko can turn them into 3/3 Elk to protect himself. In this list they're basically just there to support metalcraft. We can't get full value out of them like BUG can. As far as I'm concerned, for this deck, Mox Opal can only be used in conjunction with a borderpost package. There aren't enough other artifacts that mimic what the Balance deck is trying to do. Sure you could argue that you could throw in Pithing Needle and Grafdigger's Cage but honestly I think those are best as sideboard cards. Since I'm also running Karn, I can tutor for them in game 1 if I need to as well.
Loki, I think you might consider looking at Leyline of Sanctity in your sideboard for those black matchups. It has always been really valuable to me against decks that run more than just 4 Thoughtseize. If they're packing IoK as well, Leyline is a HUGE help.
Lastly, I think I want to mention that in my opinion I think a Teferi, Oko, and Force of Negation package is almost a must. Yeah they're expensive either online or in paper but they're just really good cards. Teferi is good against counterspells, and playing an instant speed Balance off As Foretold is hot. Oko is good against pretty much everything. Force is a good way for either version to protect itself against any must-answer threat. As a plus, having 8 posts that pitch to it is pretty cool.
I'm going to add these in and see what I come up with.
The inclusion of posts is primarily there to keep the land count down and give me more resources post-Balance. I would rather not rely on Garg to be able to Balance all my opponents lands away. Post-balance if I have 2-3 posts and a land I'm in business to play any card in the deck.
As far as Tezz goes, I won a lot of games at my LGS having him on board after a Balance. Not only do you give yourself a 5/5 beater on a clean board, but Tezz also threatens to win the game. Admittedly when I was playing Tezz I was also played a single copy of each sword (before the new ones). Being able to equip a 5/5 post with any sword provides huge value. This list doesn't have the swords however. My cascade version included Thassa and Kitchen Finks and a sword equipped to either was always nice.
I'm not worried about my creatures being removed once I've Balanced. It's near impossible for an opponent to deal with a 5/5 beater the turn after a Balance, if you've removed all of their lands. The posts make this more probable. The Electro list is so focused on Balancing with Garg that after a Balance it doesn't have mana to rebuild.
Imagine this scenario. Turn 1-3 my opponent dumps hand full of creatures, leaving 1 card in hand. On my turn 1-3 I'm going to take some damage from the creatures but let's say I'm able to throw out 2 posts and suspend a Garg. On my turn 3 I play a third post, and Electro-Balance leaving just 1 card in each of our hands and my last card is an Oko. On my turn 4 Oko comes down and turns a post into a 3/3 Elk. Turn 5 comes and I can turn another post into an Elk and swing for 6. My next turn I can turn the third post into an Elk and if they try to remove any of them I'll just pitch to Garg. It just seems really good to me. A similar scenario can be played out with Tezz except he creates 5/5s.
As far as Karn is concerned, he's just really good against the BUG artifact deck on his own. He also provides some sideboard options like Pithing Needle or Bridge for matches where it's close. Liquimetal Coating is kind of a win-more card but I think it could be quite useful post-Balance. Being able to Strip Mine every turn seems like it's going to be impossible for any deck to come back.
I included Alpine Moon for tron mostly. Blood Moon without SSG is too slow. If you're on the draw against tron and they have natural turn 3 tron they're going to play a Karn/Ugin/Wurmcoil and by that time Blood Moon is too late. Alpine Moon would disrupt that even on the draw. Even with Eldrazi Temple you can disrupt them from playing a turn 3 Reality Smasher on the draw.
So you would like to see me remove the posts, SB-artifact package and the Karn/Tezz. What would you recommend going in their place?
4x As Foretold
4x Electrodominance
3x Greater Gargadon
2x Finale of Promise
3x Fieldmist Borderpost
3x Mistvein Borderpost
3x Firewild Borderpost
3x Veinfire Borderpost
4x Remand
2x Oko, Thief of Crowns
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Ajani Vengeant
5x Snow-covered Mountain
5x Snow-covered Island
4x Prismatic Vista
2x Snow-covered Plains
1x Tolaria West
1x Snow-covered Forest
1x Snow-covered Swamp
4x Alpine Moon
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Liquimetal Coating
1x Grafdigger's Cage
I'm not sure 12 posts is the right number. Honestly I feel like 8-9 is best so artifact hate isn't a complete blowout. Also, 12 posts and 19 lands seems a bit much. Been so long though I forgot how many lands I need. I wanted to keep the artifact count somewhat high since they remove our lands, work with Tezz, and generally play well for the deck.
I have Remand in there for card draw and stall. The planeswalker package I carefully considered for a few reasons.
Karn - he's good against BUG artifacts/affinity/etc, also if you are able to tutor a Liquimetal Coating after a Balance it will ensure the opponent will never get to have more than 1 land, being able to tutor for a Pithing Needle, Bridge, or Cage helps specific matchups
Oko - the creature interactions, and Food tokens can be lifegain for matchups where a few life points is the difference between a win and a loss.
Tezzeret - ultimate is lifegain, also turns posts into blockers or potential beaters, typically it's a 'must counter' kind of card too
Ajani - lifegain, locks down permanents, removes Elk creatures from Oko if they're both out and ultimate helps make sure they don't rebuild after a Balance
I considered a great deal more walkers but had to keep the objective in mind. Balance away the board, then dominate with walkers. I feel like many opponents are going to concede if you Balance the board clean and then play a walker the next turn. If you have 2 walkers out after a Balance I feel like 90% of opponents are going to concede once the second one drops. Part of my thought process was thinking about how difficult it would be for an opponent after having any 2 of them on the board at once.
The only issue is being able to play them both at once. Otherwise there's a good chance they'll just destroy Narset somehow.
The deck I saw it played in also played Fires of Invention, which I thought was cool but I'm not sure is good enough to be competitive.