For the other changes.
Grand Arbiter comes in for the unique ability it has. With the hexproof discussion, I feel Geist would be okay to leave in (even if I think this creature is in printed in the wrong colors), but like I said, Arbiter has a unique ability and I would like to try it out.
Persecutor comes in after counting the ways he can be dealt with in other colors, and I feel okay putting it in now.
Engineered Explosives is better than Ratchet Bomb, IMO.
I honestly haven't had that hard of a time with hexproof creatures. Geist is one that I've had to leave back plenty of times before because they could just block him to death. Thrun is probably the biggest offender since he also can regenerate, which also makes sweepers bad against him. I wouldn't cut any of them because they're too good though, troll ascetic isn't that great of a card anymore so that could be a cut for another reason, but I don't think hexproof makes it any better. Though my cube also has low cost edict effects, which a modern cube can't have. If you decide to take the guys out though, I like Grand arbiter over wall, and the obsinate baloth/awakening zone swap the most.
I appericiate your info on hexproof. Agreed that Thrun, the Last Troll is the biggest offender, but I'm finding him necessary to help green and aggro decks agaisnt control and sweepers (as you said).
Basically I'm finding myself having the hexproof issue with Geist of Saint Traft. I know it can be blocked to death, Cruel Edict'd, etc. etc. etc. It just feels so odd in colors that normally don't play an aggro gameplan. Maybe I am over-evaulating this card...
The bolded part sparks another discussion for a card I've been thinking about, Abyssal Persecutor.
Looking at ways black in my cube currently can handle this card
I feel within black that of the nine spells (Three of which are X spells, Two of those X spells need a ton of mana to handle Persecutor, and Liliana 3.0 needs six swamps) isn't enough reliable ways to take care of Persecutor, and would need to add support like Devour Flesh/Geth's Verdict/Smallpox (which is a card I should really be looking at, trying to push Crucible of Worlds. I know their is plenty of ways in other colors to remove Persecutor, but I think black should be able to handle it better, and as of now it can not. Basically, is the Persecutor worth playing and is it a good idea to add in one to three more spells to support it?
I dont think hexproof is too powerful and is needed actually. Green already has a tough time against control so if you cut those cards it'll struggle even more. The only suggested cut I like here is Geist for Arbiter since you just added Hokori.
My friends suggested this, and am finding myself agreeing with this train of thought. Still unsure of any hexproof change, but if one happens, Geist will leave for Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Troll Ascetic and Thrun will stay.
Man this thing was exciting when I was building it, and MMMAAANNN did it suck. I was able to stall out games but never push it over the top. Also running into Wurmcoil Engine is a pain for a deck like this. Somehow never ran into a big sweeper, but got controled or ran into Wurmcoils to end this deck's run...
My playgroup HATED Ranger of Eos. Legit, every time we cube "I don't know why this card is in here, it isn't that good." My friend suggested Hokori, Dust Drinker as a unique effect for a modern cube, also would help out the aggro builds.
So, is Hexproof really that good?
My cube already does not play protection from any color creature, in fact the only way to give creatures pro colors is through equiping any of the sword of x and y. But hexproof seems better to me. The ability to shut your opponent off from your creature is really strong (same could be said about protection from color), and leads to plays that aren't that interactive.This brings me to my question, should hexproof be in a cube that is trying to be as interactive and possibly unique as possible?
First let's take a look at the cards currently in the cube that have hexproof.
Starting off with Geist of Saint Traft. 1WU for a 2/2 with an ability is normally a great. Hexproof, well that makes it better. Attack and get a 4/4 angel attacking... Who thought this was fair? An aggro bomb in colors that are normally not playing aggro. I feel like this card warps the game around him, but warps the game way to early.
If this card was removed, my change would look like this
Out ---> In
Geist of Saint Traft ---> Wall of Denial/Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
The choices here are do we want a card that just blocks FOREVER, or is the unique taxing ability worth putting in the cube.
Now the green creatures with hexproof are a different story. These creatures help against the control mathup vastly for the aggro decks. Thrun is a finisher, and Troll with an equipment is a finisher as well. As the issue with hexproof creatures they aren't too interactive. Now is the hexproof here worth leaving in to help out the aggro decks against control, or is it worth removing the hexproof creratures to keep the cube more interactive.
If the green hexproof creatures were removed, the changes would look like this. And there are two different routes to go with this.
Route 1
Out ---> In
Troll Ascetic ---> Awakening Zone
Thrun, the Last Troll ---> Obstinate Baloth
Awakening Zone helps Ramp decks and sadly control decks. Baloth is Baloth.
I don't think replacing two of your cantrips with 3 drops is really a good deck building strategy. It's just going to lead to more mana screw on your end.
The deck runs currently 12 total cantrips (Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe) that are non conditional, and 3 total cantrips (Shadow Rift) that are contitional. 1/4th of the deck is cantrips. I feel like that is enough, however testing might prove me wrong
What spell would you cut? and is it really wise to lower the spell count by much since you'll at the very least 17 lands or more to ensure you can cast and protect your creatures.
That said I'm also really interested in Nivix Cyclops
The main mitigating factor is blockers, so I'd probably cut whatever is least helpful at letting me ignore opposing creatures.
Nivix Cyclops, meanwhile, is tough enough to eliminate blockers one at a time before going for the killshot.
I still think that in a deck slow enough to sport double playsets of :1mana::symu::symr:, you can support a splash too; which can buy you incredible blocker mitigation like Predator's Gambit.
I agree with that, I would like to know what changes you would make as I am struggling to make a list with the green splash. I also really like Mutagenic Growth in this deck...
I think a good question to ask is does adding another Dragonaut to the deck make it more consistent and less susceptible to removal?
I whipped this deck up after seeing the Nivix Cyclops, and while I am not an expert of the deck, the twenty or so games I have played, I feel the deck needs a creature package that looks like this
Boredom has set in, and with nothing to do I looked at Dragon's Maze spoiler so far and this is what the changes are looking like for when the set is released.
Obviously easy change is for Ral Zarek. Getting in Voice of Resurgence and Blood Scrivener is a little more difficult.
- Voice of Resurgence looks good, and it really depends on how Knight of the Reliquary works out in the next few drafts. (This card just went into the cube) I rarely see anyone in my playgroup drafting the Militant, but the 2/1 is still a 2/1 for 1 mana and aggro is still having issues in my cube.
- Speaking of aggro having issues, the love Blood Scrivener has been getting in the new-card discussion fourms has made me see how good this card could be/is. I know removing a black control card is the correct choice, but the question is what card. Do I remove the fattie with a built in Infest (which a reanimator build would love to have, and reanimator is something I am trying to push a little bit more) or the 4CC double Innocent Blood?
Izzet Signet ---> Ral Zarek
Grasp of Darkness ---> Blood Scrivner
Loam Lion ---> Voice of Resurgence
I think its obvious Ral will stick around. I have high hopes for Blood Scrivener but we'll see what happens. Theres other cards that we may test but I'll discuss more with the group. These 3 were the ones that have my intrigued the most so far.
I am really intrested to see how the Scrivner works out for you. I honestly do not like the card, but then again, testing could always prove different results.
I love how stacked Selesnya is. How has Crucible been playing out for you? Has it been a high pick like it is in a powered cube? Also I stongly urge you to test out VoR. The player who drafted it last night couldnt stop singing its praises in his GW token/Midrange deck.
Crucible has been solid, but is not the high pick you would think it is, as of now. Sometimes it get scooped up early, but most of the time it tables once then gets picked (So anywhere from pick seven through nine normally). I honestly believe that is because of one of or all of the following.
1. Not as much you can do with it in modern. There is no Strip Mine, no Wasteland. Recurring the fetchlands is great, but it still isn't as powerful.
2. No one has built the proper deck to exploit it.
For example: My plagroup was bad mouthing reanimator in cube until I got Myr Battlesphere out on turn 4.
(Turn 1: Snow-Covered Swamp. Turn 2: Snow-Covered Forest, Pack Rat. Turn 3: Snow-Covered Plains, discard Battlesphere to Pack Rat. Turn 4: Snow-Covered Swamp, Zombify)
3. I might not have the proper package to support it as of now.
So it is something worth looking into next time I draft.
I am excited to try Voice of Resurgence. I am happy to hear this card is already getting love.
This change has been made, and it is really just a testing change. With Crucible of Worlds being in the cube, Knight might be a great card. I know Knight interacts well with other cards, just too tired to list other reasons why we all know he is solid.
If Knight doesn't work out, Voice of Resurgence will probably find it's way into the cube.
These include the already talked about Dragon's Maze changes
Out ---> In
Wipe Away ---> Ætherling
Barter in Blood ---> Blood Scrivener
Massacre Wurm ---> Abyssal Persecutor
Slagstorm ---> Pyrewild Shaman
Geist of Saint Traft ---> Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Knight of the Reliquary ---> Voice of Resurgence
Desolate Lighthouse ---> Ral Zarek
Ratchet Bomb ---> Engineered Explosives
For the other changes.
Grand Arbiter comes in for the unique ability it has. With the hexproof discussion, I feel Geist would be okay to leave in (even if I think this creature is in printed in the wrong colors), but like I said, Arbiter has a unique ability and I would like to try it out.
Persecutor comes in after counting the ways he can be dealt with in other colors, and I feel okay putting it in now.
Engineered Explosives is better than Ratchet Bomb, IMO.
I appericiate your info on hexproof. Agreed that Thrun, the Last Troll is the biggest offender, but I'm finding him necessary to help green and aggro decks agaisnt control and sweepers (as you said).
Basically I'm finding myself having the hexproof issue with Geist of Saint Traft. I know it can be blocked to death, Cruel Edict'd, etc. etc. etc. It just feels so odd in colors that normally don't play an aggro gameplan. Maybe I am over-evaulating this card...
The bolded part sparks another discussion for a card I've been thinking about, Abyssal Persecutor.
Looking at ways black in my cube currently can handle this card
1 Go for the Throat
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Death Cloud
1 Profane Command
I feel within black that of the nine spells (Three of which are X spells, Two of those X spells need a ton of mana to handle Persecutor, and Liliana 3.0 needs six swamps) isn't enough reliable ways to take care of Persecutor, and would need to add support like Devour Flesh/Geth's Verdict/Smallpox (which is a card I should really be looking at, trying to push Crucible of Worlds. I know their is plenty of ways in other colors to remove Persecutor, but I think black should be able to handle it better, and as of now it can not. Basically, is the Persecutor worth playing and is it a good idea to add in one to three more spells to support it?
My friends suggested this, and am finding myself agreeing with this train of thought. Still unsure of any hexproof change, but if one happens, Geist will leave for Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Troll Ascetic and Thrun will stay.
1 Diergraf Ghoul
1 Gravecrawler
1 Twinblade Slasher
1 Vampire Lacerator
1 Wolfbitten Captive
1 Baleful Strix
1 Bloodghast
1 Lotleth Troll
1 Oona's Prowler
1 Pack Rat
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Ohran Viper
1 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Graveborn Muse
1 Nekrataal
1 Vengevine
1 Shriekmaw
1 Bonesplitter
1 Skullclamp
1 Grafted Wargear
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
5 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Island
Man this thing was exciting when I was building it, and MMMAAANNN did it suck. I was able to stall out games but never push it over the top. Also running into Wurmcoil Engine is a pain for a deck like this. Somehow never ran into a big sweeper, but got controled or ran into Wurmcoils to end this deck's run...
Small Change, also offically added Dragon's Maze to the OP as well.
04/27/2013
Out ---> In
Ranger of Eos ---> Hokori, Dust Drinker
My playgroup HATED Ranger of Eos. Legit, every time we cube "I don't know why this card is in here, it isn't that good." My friend suggested Hokori, Dust Drinker as a unique effect for a modern cube, also would help out the aggro builds.
So, is Hexproof really that good?
My cube already does not play protection from any color creature, in fact the only way to give creatures pro colors is through equiping any of the sword of x and y. But hexproof seems better to me. The ability to shut your opponent off from your creature is really strong (same could be said about protection from color), and leads to plays that aren't that interactive.This brings me to my question, should hexproof be in a cube that is trying to be as interactive and possibly unique as possible?
First let's take a look at the cards currently in the cube that have hexproof.
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Geist of Saint Traft
Starting off with Geist of Saint Traft. 1WU for a 2/2 with an ability is normally a great. Hexproof, well that makes it better. Attack and get a 4/4 angel attacking... Who thought this was fair? An aggro bomb in colors that are normally not playing aggro. I feel like this card warps the game around him, but warps the game way to early.
If this card was removed, my change would look like this
Out ---> In
Geist of Saint Traft ---> Wall of Denial/Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
The choices here are do we want a card that just blocks FOREVER, or is the unique taxing ability worth putting in the cube.
Now the green creatures with hexproof are a different story. These creatures help against the control mathup vastly for the aggro decks. Thrun is a finisher, and Troll with an equipment is a finisher as well. As the issue with hexproof creatures they aren't too interactive. Now is the hexproof here worth leaving in to help out the aggro decks against control, or is it worth removing the hexproof creratures to keep the cube more interactive.
If the green hexproof creatures were removed, the changes would look like this. And there are two different routes to go with this.
Route 1
Out ---> In
Troll Ascetic ---> Awakening Zone
Thrun, the Last Troll ---> Obstinate Baloth
Awakening Zone helps Ramp decks and sadly control decks. Baloth is Baloth.
Route 2
Out ---> In
Troll Ascetic ---> Wolfir Avenger
Thrun, the Last Troll ---> Wolfir Silverheart
This route is because of one player who loves Master of the Wild Hunt and wants to pull off a small subtheme of Wolf Trible. Huntmaster of the Fells and Mayor of Avabruck help support this.
Thanks for reading this odd update, look forward to hearing your thoughts on the hexproof issue.
A stupid amount thanks to a growing market for foils and alters and such...
The deck runs currently 12 total cantrips (Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe) that are non conditional, and 3 total cantrips (Shadow Rift) that are contitional. 1/4th of the deck is cantrips. I feel like that is enough, however testing might prove me wrong
Kinda what I was leaning towards, but I posted the question in the this or that to get more input.
You FINALLY put your cube up!!!!
Pyroclasm or Slagstorm
Out ---> In
Wipe Away ---> Ætherling
Barter in Blood ---> Blood Scrivener
Slagstorm ---> Pyrewild Shaman
Knight of the Reliquary ---> Voice of Resurgence
Desolate Lighthouse ---> Ral Zarek
This is my decklist as of now
6 Mountain
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Apostle's Blessing
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Assult Strobe
3 Shadow Rift
2 Brainstorm
2 Dispel
2 Piracy Charm
1 Elecrtostatic Bolt
2 Dispel
2 Electrickery
2 Flaring Pain
2 Flame Slash
2 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
And this is what I believe my deck will look like in the future...
6 Mountain
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Wee Dragonauts
3 Nivix Cyclops
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Assult Strobe
3 Shadow Rift
2 Magma Spray
2 Piracy Charm
2 Electrickery
2 Flame Slash
2 Flaring Pain
2 Hydroblast
3 Dispel
4 Pyroblast
I agree with that, I would like to know what changes you would make as I am struggling to make a list with the green splash. I also really like Mutagenic Growth in this deck...
I whipped this deck up after seeing the Nivix Cyclops, and while I am not an expert of the deck, the twenty or so games I have played, I feel the deck needs a creature package that looks like this
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Nivix Cyclops
There have been plenty of times where I lose one of my twelve creatures and never see another one until the game is nearly over
These are the changes I am currently looking at making once the set is released.
Out ---> In
Desolate Lighthouse ---> Ral Zarek
Dryad Militant/Knight of the Reliquary ---> Voice of Resurgence
Massacre Wurm/Barter in Blood ---> Blood Scrivener
Obviously easy change is for Ral Zarek. Getting in Voice of Resurgence and Blood Scrivener is a little more difficult.
- Voice of Resurgence looks good, and it really depends on how Knight of the Reliquary works out in the next few drafts. (This card just went into the cube) I rarely see anyone in my playgroup drafting the Militant, but the 2/1 is still a 2/1 for 1 mana and aggro is still having issues in my cube.
- Speaking of aggro having issues, the love Blood Scrivener has been getting in the new-card discussion fourms has made me see how good this card could be/is. I know removing a black control card is the correct choice, but the question is what card. Do I remove the fattie with a built in Infest (which a reanimator build would love to have, and reanimator is something I am trying to push a little bit more) or the 4CC double Innocent Blood?
I am really intrested to see how the Scrivner works out for you. I honestly do not like the card, but then again, testing could always prove different results.
Crucible has been solid, but is not the high pick you would think it is, as of now. Sometimes it get scooped up early, but most of the time it tables once then gets picked (So anywhere from pick seven through nine normally). I honestly believe that is because of one of or all of the following.
1. Not as much you can do with it in modern. There is no Strip Mine, no Wasteland. Recurring the fetchlands is great, but it still isn't as powerful.
2. No one has built the proper deck to exploit it.
For example: My plagroup was bad mouthing reanimator in cube until I got Myr Battlesphere out on turn 4.
(Turn 1: Snow-Covered Swamp. Turn 2: Snow-Covered Forest, Pack Rat. Turn 3: Snow-Covered Plains, discard Battlesphere to Pack Rat. Turn 4: Snow-Covered Swamp, Zombify)
3. I might not have the proper package to support it as of now.
So it is something worth looking into next time I draft.
I am excited to try Voice of Resurgence. I am happy to hear this card is already getting love.
Out ---> In
Armada Wurm ---> Knight of the Reliquary
This change has been made, and it is really just a testing change. With Crucible of Worlds being in the cube, Knight might be a great card. I know Knight interacts well with other cards, just too tired to list other reasons why we all know he is solid.
If Knight doesn't work out, Voice of Resurgence will probably find it's way into the cube.