I gave Humility a lot of thought, but ultimately it lost to the curse of casting cost as well. It might be the only cardf that a ton of people don't play just for lack of headaches. It is certainly powerful, and much, much easier to break these days, thanks to walkers and all the new(ish) manlands.
@KBH: Vote your feelings. I started these rankings a long time ago (and retired due to laziness and because Se does much, much better work than me) and kept the voting private specifically so everyone would vote how they felt not how they thought they should feel. If we all did the latter, the ranks would be meaningless. You never know when a card is going to catch on and gain steam because one person made a good case for it.
@Star Slayer: Saying Resto Angel is good is true, but it is a casualty of the power of white four cost. Is it even a top 5 white 4CC?
@DerBK: I agree that white's curve, possibly more than any other color, has to be managed carefully. I'm not surprised Sun Titan missed the cut though. White has a bunch of great finishers at 5+ so it's relative power is not so high. I would certainly ship it P1P1, and be fine ending up with one of many other high cost bombs (in white or my second color). More a comment on how crazy good 6+ beasts have gotten.
Not surprised by any of the cards on there, but the order is a bit puzzling to me. For me, white drafting roughly goes Elspeth + geddons, then kick ass spells/removal/encahntments, then 1-3 drops. Why 1-3 drops? Because I'm in white, and so I know I'm going to get kick ass (and probably way too many) 4-5 drops. This is why cards like Brimaz, Thalia, Pork Leg, and Flickerwisp beat our the higher powered Resto Angel and Hero of Bladehold.
I don't think your idea is common sense as much as your opinion on what common sense is. Common sense to me would be to list cards with different rules text as different cards. Also, this is only going to come up like 3 or 4 times in the whole set of voting (that we already started with one set of rules...). Why not just go with what we are already doing so no one has to change their votes?
As I had said in the other thread:
I think if the card text isn't the same then they are different cards. Ravages and Armageddon look the same beyond the art and the name and do the exact same thing. Each other example brought up is not the same and plays enough differently that they deserve their own votes.
I didn't mean to make my idea sound like common sense. If you think that every card with even the tiniest bit of wording (or rarity???) change should be ranked individually, then there is nothing wrong with that.
What I was speaking to was the idea that because we started this way, we should continue. In other words, let's not let the perfect get in the way of the good here.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
We're not "forcing one out". If you see Ravages or Geddon in a pack, you're not skipping on one in favor of the other. I don't believe the same can be said for *** and DoJ. I think a case can be made for both O-Ring vs Banishing Light as well as Wildfire vs Burning of Xinye, but we're not trying to leave anything out. This discussion in relation to the voting is to say that "these cards are the same, vote on them as a single card" and "these cards are different, vote on them individually". The first one is a case of not putting two cards that are identical onto the list and possibly knocking a card off the Top 20 (by the second version of the card taking up an unnecessary spot). And the second case is differentiating between two cards, who by the looks of things may not end up right next to each other...only supporting the notion that they are, in fact, different.
Fair point, which is why I think the discussion should be had before voting, to see what kind of disagreement we have. I think of Wrath and Day of Judgey as the same exact value, but clearly some people disagree (or at least they do when voting, which is a whole other bag of problems). So the argument that they should be individual has some merit. Does ANYONE rate Wildfire and XBurn miles apart, or even view them as different effects?
Moving this discussion over from the voting thread:
I'd rather see cards that play the same 99% of the time combined, so we get to see more effects on the list (and thus it will be more useful). Obviously, you have to draw the line somewhere, but I've never seen Wildfire and thought "If this was Burning of Xinye, I'd totally take it, but...".
In other words, what say we use common sense as opposed to rigid rules?
I'd rather see cards that play the same 99% of the time combined, so we get to see more effects on the list (and thus it will be more useful). Obviously, you have to draw the line somewhere, but I've never seen Wildfire and thought "If this was Burning of Xinye, I'd totally take it, but...".
In other words, what say we use common sense as opposed to rigid rules?
01. Armageddon
02. Elspeth, Knight-Errant
03. Stoneforge Mystic
04. Moat
05. Land Tax
06. Balance
07. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
08. Brimaz, King of Oreskos
09. Gideon Jura
10. Wrath of God
11. Day of Judgement
12. Oblivion Ring
13. Banishing Light
14. Swords to Plowshares
15. Path to Exile
16. Porcelain Legionnaire
17. Mother of Runes
18. Catastrophe
19. Mana Tithe
20. Flickerwisp
My issue is not this cards power level so much as what this color combination does and does not need. Cards like Izzet Charm, Electrolyze, Fire/Ice, and the two walkers give either a healthy power boost or fill a needed role at that casting cost. This guy just seems like another awesome four drop to slot alongside blue and reds already awesome four drops (and four cost spells).
Could anyone with a better grasp at probability and math than myself list how likely it is to get two colors that you want (while running a 2, 3 or 4 color deck)? eidolon? Anyone?
Well, the two color math is pretty easy, with some assumptions. If you assume both non you players name random colors, and you are absoltely in only two colors, then you have a 40% chance of the first player giving you one of your two colors (and thus, you getting both) plus a 33% chance of the last player picking your second color out of the three remaining when it gets to him. Unfortuntely, that doesn't add up to 77% (more like 60) but that is also basically the worst situation possible.
When you are running three colors, the odds go up to 3/5 (60%) + 2/3 (66%) for a 86 percent chance of hitting two of your colors (and like a 20% chance of going 3/3, I think).
I have long been a Goblin Assault advocate, so this guy is a shoe in. I'm just not sure if I cut assault for it, or just boost tokens even more. Red three drops are pretty mediocre, but I never know what to cut.
02 Demonic Tutor
03 Bitterblossom
04 Recurring Nightmare
05 Dark Confidant
06 Braids, Cabal Minion
07 Liliana of the Veil
08 Vampiric Tutor
09 Imperial Seal
10 Volrath's Stronghold
11 Thoughtseize
12 Pack Rat
13 Grave Titan
14 Hymn to Tourach
15 Shriekmaw
16 Bloodghast
17 Sinkhole
18 Ophiomancer
19 Reanimate
20 Animate Dead
Geist has never been close to the block for us, thanks to his usefulness in midrange and control.
@Star Slayer: Saying Resto Angel is good is true, but it is a casualty of the power of white four cost. Is it even a top 5 white 4CC?
@DerBK: I agree that white's curve, possibly more than any other color, has to be managed carefully. I'm not surprised Sun Titan missed the cut though. White has a bunch of great finishers at 5+ so it's relative power is not so high. I would certainly ship it P1P1, and be fine ending up with one of many other high cost bombs (in white or my second color). More a comment on how crazy good 6+ beasts have gotten.
01 Ancestral Recall
02 Time Walk
03 Tinker
04 Upheaval
05 Mana Drain
06 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
07 Bribery
08 Snapcaster Mage
09 Treachery
10 Vedalken Shackles
11 Control Magic
12 True-Name Nemesis
13 Vendilion Clique
14 Phyrexian Metamorph
15 Venser, Shaper Savant
16 Sower of Temptation
17 Glen Elendra Archmage
18 Forbid
19 Mulldrifter
20 Time Spiral
Great stuff though, everybody!
I didn't mean to make my idea sound like common sense. If you think that every card with even the tiniest bit of wording (or rarity???) change should be ranked individually, then there is nothing wrong with that.
What I was speaking to was the idea that because we started this way, we should continue. In other words, let's not let the perfect get in the way of the good here.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."
Fair point, which is why I think the discussion should be had before voting, to see what kind of disagreement we have. I think of Wrath and Day of Judgey as the same exact value, but clearly some people disagree (or at least they do when voting, which is a whole other bag of problems). So the argument that they should be individual has some merit. Does ANYONE rate Wildfire and XBurn miles apart, or even view them as different effects?
I'd rather see cards that play the same 99% of the time combined, so we get to see more effects on the list (and thus it will be more useful). Obviously, you have to draw the line somewhere, but I've never seen Wildfire and thought "If this was Burning of Xinye, I'd totally take it, but...".
In other words, what say we use common sense as opposed to rigid rules?
In other words, what say we use common sense as opposed to rigid rules?
01. Armageddon
02. Elspeth, Knight-Errant
03. Stoneforge Mystic
04. Moat
05. Land Tax
06. Balance
07. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
08. Brimaz, King of Oreskos
09. Gideon Jura
10. Wrath of God
11. Day of Judgement
12. Oblivion Ring
13. Banishing Light
14. Swords to Plowshares
15. Path to Exile
16. Porcelain Legionnaire
17. Mother of Runes
18. Catastrophe
19. Mana Tithe
20. Flickerwisp
Well, the two color math is pretty easy, with some assumptions. If you assume both non you players name random colors, and you are absoltely in only two colors, then you have a 40% chance of the first player giving you one of your two colors (and thus, you getting both) plus a 33% chance of the last player picking your second color out of the three remaining when it gets to him. Unfortuntely, that doesn't add up to 77% (more like 60) but that is also basically the worst situation possible.
When you are running three colors, the odds go up to 3/5 (60%) + 2/3 (66%) for a 86 percent chance of hitting two of your colors (and like a 20% chance of going 3/3, I think).