@corpt
what are you talking about when you say it stops you're cards. the only thing it stops that kith somtimes plays is mirrorweave and unless toast can remove him it stops *** and is a really nice play T2.vanquisher adds speed and so does treetop village. I wouldn't run imperious perfect though. I would go low on elves but Wilt-Leaf liege is sooooooo much better than thistledown. my meta also loves to run black in their RDW and i hate the card disadvantage of blightning. i would also play finks for a strong aggro piece puls the life gain is sweet. and when they kill it you can rustic clachan it to remove the -1/-1 counter. i think thi'll be pretty kewl. help me out on the list.
Then you should be playing G/W Aggro....not Kithkin.
While I agree with you and run ponder to great happiness, just don't try. Everyone is going to jump down your throat about it; it isn't worth the sh*tstorm.
This is so funny.
@Mikey I've already stated that sower wasn't needed MD about a month ago(and Blade states list even proved my point at the time) and you guys all said it was a bad choice.
Now a month later somebody "discovers" that sower is a dead card on the MD again and you guys all think the gunpowder has been discovered. This happened precisely with the BA MD(I've never removed mine). This isn't some kind of auto promotion, it's just I'm sick of seeing stuff that is already known by some for a while ago turned into a "omg I also changed to that now and this is new stuff and groundbreaking" thing.
And unfortunately, this is all this thread's going to lead us towards--> A Loop. Next thing you know, people will begin to say that Thoughtseize maindeck is wrong, COUGH...well, at least that's what I think now.:)
@king1488 - Yes a smart RDW wins player boards in both extract and torment against kith. I hear one drops that auto win the game if you dont have an answer are good. and oh ya they can be tutored for in multiples. RDW cannot deal with forge tender if it doesnt board in those cards. Colorless removal also deals with stillmoons which they will also be expecting. When you bring in voice of all you will just be spending an extra mana for it to be dealt with the same way stillmoon would be dealt with.
A smart one maybe, but in this meta, overall, you'll rarely see the Extracts. Also, pay attention to my posts and what I'm talking about. I never, and will never, said that Forge-Tender is bad. Never.
The real reason Ajani is good vs RDW is the Vigilance, meaning all the sudden they lose any viable attacks. Not that you need help in the match up anyways.
If you think Voice of All is going to be better then Stillmoon in the Fae matchup, you clearly haven't played it enough.
1) Resolving a 4 drop is FAR harder then resolving a 3 drop vs them. Mistbind Clique, them not tapping out for Blossom early, etc come to mind.
2) If they are Sowering your guys and you can't kill it, a single 2/2 flier isn't going to get you there.
3) Stillmoon can attack into any creature they have in play without fear of trading due to first strike + pumping. Voice either gets stopped by 2 Blossom tokens or a Clique.
4) Stillmoon's pump ability is extremely relevant. Just 2 a turn isn't enough.
Voice vs Scion + Sower isn't an especially good fight, and that's the optimal scenario.
Your goal in the matchup is to keep them on the back foot all game, not play 4 mana 2/2's.
In the mirror, Stillmoon is better again as the ability to pump lets you race a superior board state, as well as kill an Ajani before it gets out of hand.
Vs. 5 color, Stillmoon forces a Wrath due to the fact it can deal 4-5 damage a turn.
Vs. B/G decks, Stillmoon is better as it fights the non-Colossus guys again due to first strike without having to lose pro-black. GL keeping a Voice of All in play that can beat a Vanquisher.
Vs Red decks, you got me. Congrats, the card is better in your best matchup. The one you should win 75+% of the time anyways.
I notice a general trend in your statements about you not being able to judge how to make Stillmoon an appropriate clock. Maybe if you actually counted in games you played and realized when pumping is correct, you might realize how good the card is.
Anyways, the real reason I'm actually posting is so someone can tell me why you are still running Stalwart + Cenn instead of Knights + Rangerable 1 drops in the non-red builds. If someone can explain to me what match ups you actually want Stalwart in and why, that would be great. Same with how Cenn is better then Sigiled Paladin in scenarios outside the mirror involving Cloudgoat fights. Feel free to include Rustic Clachan in this argument, as that was the only reason I found to keep the Kithkin base in.
1. I've touched Kithkin since it was started. I know how the deck runs.
2. If you're arguing Ajani is better in the RDW matchup, then Ajani dies to burn. Period.
3. Tell me whether you would rather have Stillmoon Sower'ed or Voice.
4. I haven't even mentioned the scenario if Scion was in play in addition. At that point Stillmoon would be even worse.
5. Voice isn't scared of BB tokens either.
6. Stillmoon is scared of Sower, and so are you.
7. 2 a turn against Fae is pretty crucial. Life is precious to them when the clock starts ticking.
8. Sure, Voice is more vulnerable to counter. But if they're tapped because of CC/Sower?
9. In the mirror, like I said, you don't lose tempo.
vs 5c: You'd board it in, seriously?
vs B/G, Elves, ect: You have more than one threat. They only run normally 3-4 spot removals. How often will they wipe you out.
vs RDW: Yeah, I got you. har har har. But seriously, like you said, why worry if the match-ups already in our favor. I wasn't. Like I said, these are all just examples.
Stillmoon's double protections are the most relevant in the current format, so that "much more" part doesn't really cuts it. If you plan playing it against green (which would be a terrible idea, btw), it eats Nameless Inversions, Profane Commands, and mostly anything else which Green-based decks usually pack as removal. It's probably most-appealing Vs RDW, namely Demigods, but with Forge-Tenders, Unmakes and whatnot, why would you want to bring in Voice of All?
It lacks the body to be offensive, something Kithkin is all about, and, MUCH relevantly, costs 4. That means it eats Cryptic Commands on the draw and on the play it doesn't come down during that sweet spot when Fae players have just tapped out for their Blossom. And it's much worse in the Mirror, since you'll be playing 2/2s for 4 while they'll be playing pumpable, flying, first-strinking 2/1s for 3.
Doesn't seem like a necessary or good trade unless Demigods have been really freaking you out.
Edit: And Sarnathed, sort of. xP
Yes, I understand bringing them in against the matchups(green and rdw listed above) aren't really the thing to do, but I was just using them as examples of why it would be more versatile pro color-wise.
Sure it may lack the pump ability, but how often is it used when you're hitting the board with other plays, especially when you're keeping the pace up in the mirror. I'm not saying the pump isn't used at all, or doesn't win you games, quicker at that, but it really isn't a big bonus that pushes it over the edge on top of Voice.
The scenarios which you listed above may all be true. But in reality things just don't play out as smooth as you suggested for the opposing side. You used Fae as an example of worst case scenarios where Voice wouldn't be able to hit. Ok, but say you land Stillmoon. Sower will hurt you. Also, I'll take the time to state that just because something costs...2..or 3...or 4, doesn't mean it must strictly be played during those turns. Sure you'll be playing a 2/2 for 4 while they're playing a 2/1 for 3 FS, Flying, blah blah blah, but again, 4 mana seals the deal with Flying, and it's pumped by anthem. Trust me, there are numerous amounts of scenarios I can bring up that voids your last statement in the 2nd paragraph.
On a side note, I also forgot to mention, if you're playing Ajani's then yeah Stillmoons would be a better choice because it's most important to have Ajani dropped turn 4 rather than Voice, and Stillmoon could have possibly been dropped the turn before. But I'm only stating that Voice could find a spot instead if you're running Anthems.
The evasion arguement is not a good one. Stillmoon almost always has evasion whether it be flying for 1 mana or his protection which is more solid and consistent than voices. Even though you can choose any color with voice stillmoon STILL has more versatility. Against RDW he isnt as solid as you make him out to be because they will already be siding in moonglove extract and everlasting torment to deal with forge tender. I really dont see a matchup where he is better in among the tier 1 decks.
First, you stated Stillmoon's pro colors are more solid and consistent than Voice's....uh Error, think that one over again.
Second, you stated RDW boards Extract. Seriously?
Third, not better than Stillmoon among tier 1 decks? It's pretty self explanatory, but I'll type it out for you. Stillmoon only has pro white and black, okay? Period. If it's ever going to be boarded in, then it's usually against Fae and Kith, correct? Guess what, Voice can do the same and more.
So...you're arguing that Stillmoon Cavalier clogs up the 3-drop slot, and that's a weakness in comparison to Voice of All...which is a 4-drop? That doesn't make any sense.
At any rate, the reason we use Stillmoon Cavalier is that it costs one less, has first strike, and can deal more than two a turn.
Blinks stated exactly what I meant by that in his post, thanks Blinks. You've probably just misinterpreted what I was saying by that. But yes, basically what I meant is that it doesn't slow your tempo at all. You've got other great turn 3 plays, so you can't lose here.
So, costing one less or more doesn't really matter. First strike isn't much of an issue here because Voice will have pro from whatever color you wish. As far as Stillmoon swinging for more than 2, again it's mana intensive, but sure, if you've got mana open and nothing better to do, it's good, but I personally have rarely seen that scenerio because I was doing something else with the mana instead.
he didnt phrase it very good,of course it would be better if it costed 3... but I guess what he meant is : you already got anthem and spectral which are excellent turn3 plays, so assuming you dont miss your 4th land drop, you arent missing much in tempo by playing voice of all. Of course it would be better if it costed 3 like the stillmoon, worst czse scenario you would drop it turn4 again but have 1 mana free to boost that FoD or something...or be able to stil drop it turn4 even if you miss a land drop. However the greatest disadvantage of its cost, (the fact that it comes into play 1 turn slower than the stillmoon) is in a great extent minimized by the fact above (that you got several other excellent turn3 plays). I think thats what he meant and I aggree. Other than that, I like that its not mana intensive and it can choose other colors, but we need to keep in mind that in the end it will only have 1 color protection and not 2. How important is that, is another story....I guess in the mirror you choose white and you got the same functionality, against fairies you can choose blue and end up even better (no sower, no to that UB removal spell with -0/-3, and infest would kill it anyways, now if they stil use terror you are in trouble, and you cant avoid blossom tokens...), against 5cc you can choose white for comdemn/unmake and it would die anyways to the mass removal. Overall against red it becomes much more usefull and against green too...
Its a solid choice, and also opens up the option for Pariah sideboard/main to create a soft/hard lock and assure a victory against RDW.
Even against Fae, I'd say pro black for tokens and agony warp/terror. Since you don't have pro blue, Sower will take it, sure, but Voice doesn't have pro White simultaneously with Black, which means it doesn't hurt you at all. Whereas Sower snagging a Stillmoon can be backbreaking to you. And you've basically already listed every color above that shows why Voice would be a pretty solid choice. Voice with Pro Red stops all of RDW, not just Demigod/Gouger. So no need for Runed Halo against Demigods if you use them. What else can Voice save you from...basically all the scary cards in standard right?
Has anyone here considered using Voice of All over Stillmoon?
Sure it may cost one more mana, but it's less mana intensive and has a very important ability built in, evasion. It also won't clunk up the turn 3 play with Anthem/Spec in hand. The big ups on this lady is that it can be used against ANY deck you may have probs with due to it's color choice. Also, if using it against Fae, you don't need to worry about sowers because it doesn't have pro white built in. I wonder why no one has even used this before.
Just a thought that crossed my mind...thought I'd share it.
@Magician
First I have to say, the deck you're thinking about above, runs mainly on exalted from what I see, and less dependent on swarm/alpha strike. Why even bother with Ajani? Looking at the deck you listed above, I'd say RoE would have a bit more use in there than CGR, but still, as a 4 of I'm not so sure. I also don't like Knight of the White Orchid, and seriously don't think you need it in there.
Second, ROE>CGR. I would call that a crazy call in general, but seriously, they're two different cards. One is board control post-wipe, and the other is search.
Overall, I think that deck isn't going to work out too well, honestly, against a meta. I've tested a similar list/playstyle, and it's a bit slow. It may be less Wrath stress orientated, but Finks and Stillmoons really hurt it. You really are better off just going the good ol fashion route.:-/
First and foremost...I must say..........THAT THE STEAK EGG AND CHEESE BAGEL IS MY FAVORITE ON THE BREAKFAST MENU TOO!!! Sooooo greassyyy and yummyyy......hahaha
Anyhoo, Good job on the article there. Although you completely ended up voiding what you said in the 2nd paragraph, lol, it was very detailed; I like it, very informative.
I laughed when you brought the whole thing up about Elspeth because I think we both neglected her a while ago in the old Kith thread when she was first spoiled. But you're right, she deserves the apology.
I also find it pretty funny about your vision on Merfolk because I've actually been following that thread lately, and tested it on mws(ew I know), and I have to agree...it could really be something to watch out for.
Anyways, too bad you couldn't go far in the tourney. Def feel bad for the Quillspike matchup haha, but seems to me you just ran out of gas/answers, oh well, can't answer everything.
I don`t even want to bring up the whole ponder issue,as there has been enough reading material to last me awile....good points both pro and con, but basically I`m new to the deck and have had success with it. I`ll keep it till it lets me down.
Don`t throw anything or hit too hard....but what about Telling Time? I know it doesnt play t1 and it sits in the t2 BB slot, but this deck is all about putting pressure on my opponents EOT or during upkeep....right? Or rather , during their turn. What better way to do that then to draw,EOT? Just wondering.
I've tested Telling Time before, the only thing it has going is it's instant speed. You've already listed the reasons why you should play Ponder over it.;)
You will have 22 and 3 ponders remaining in the deck of 49 cards on turn 2. That is over 50% to hit a land. If you notice your essentialy saying "I would not keep a 2 land hand with a bitterblossom" This logic is bad, very bad.
EDIT: This game is math, all math and numbers. Just to be clear.
You realize you totally misquoted me, you even failed to read carefully what I stated, and what I quoted.
Just take some more time to reread, and rethink your reply...:rolleyes:
Island
Ponder
Bitterblossom
spellstutter
Mistbind clique
Cryptic
Vendillion clique
Are very, very keepable as your odds of hitting the 2nd land are well over 95%. Seriously I have kept so many 1 land hands in legacy when you run 17 lands and cantrips, mulling hands like the above that include
Land
Ponder
Blossom
4 cards
is a bad call. Even if you sub blossom for remove soul its a bad call, your over 70% likely to hit 2 land drops in a row. Ponder is just consistent and thats all.
And what happens with the 3rd....4th....5th lands? You're very likely to miss a drop praying to topdeck that other land.
Also, this is Standard, not Legacy. Legacy- There are limitless amounts of ways to work with such a hand, of course, especially when your curve tops out at 2-3. Don't bring another format into a whole different world.
And seriously guys, stop with all the damn calculations and numbers shiet, Statistics with numbers don't verify anything. It's a card game, not math...
Then you should be playing G/W Aggro....not Kithkin.
Heh, unfortunately, ^he's right.
And unfortunately, this is all this thread's going to lead us towards--> A Loop. Next thing you know, people will begin to say that Thoughtseize maindeck is wrong, COUGH...well, at least that's what I think now.:)
A smart one maybe, but in this meta, overall, you'll rarely see the Extracts. Also, pay attention to my posts and what I'm talking about. I never, and will never, said that Forge-Tender is bad. Never.
1. I've touched Kithkin since it was started. I know how the deck runs.
2. If you're arguing Ajani is better in the RDW matchup, then Ajani dies to burn. Period.
3. Tell me whether you would rather have Stillmoon Sower'ed or Voice.
4. I haven't even mentioned the scenario if Scion was in play in addition. At that point Stillmoon would be even worse.
5. Voice isn't scared of BB tokens either.
6. Stillmoon is scared of Sower, and so are you.
7. 2 a turn against Fae is pretty crucial. Life is precious to them when the clock starts ticking.
8. Sure, Voice is more vulnerable to counter. But if they're tapped because of CC/Sower?
9. In the mirror, like I said, you don't lose tempo.
vs 5c: You'd board it in, seriously?
vs B/G, Elves, ect: You have more than one threat. They only run normally 3-4 spot removals. How often will they wipe you out.
vs RDW: Yeah, I got you. har har har. But seriously, like you said, why worry if the match-ups already in our favor. I wasn't. Like I said, these are all just examples.
Backlash is pretty strong. In my opinion though, the Traditional Kithkin may be better, but not by a lot.
As for Ajani, it can be burned. As for life gain, sure it's good, but you do have KoM. They have no way of getting rid of Anthem.
Yes, I understand bringing them in against the matchups(green and rdw listed above) aren't really the thing to do, but I was just using them as examples of why it would be more versatile pro color-wise.
Sure it may lack the pump ability, but how often is it used when you're hitting the board with other plays, especially when you're keeping the pace up in the mirror. I'm not saying the pump isn't used at all, or doesn't win you games, quicker at that, but it really isn't a big bonus that pushes it over the edge on top of Voice.
The scenarios which you listed above may all be true. But in reality things just don't play out as smooth as you suggested for the opposing side. You used Fae as an example of worst case scenarios where Voice wouldn't be able to hit. Ok, but say you land Stillmoon. Sower will hurt you. Also, I'll take the time to state that just because something costs...2..or 3...or 4, doesn't mean it must strictly be played during those turns. Sure you'll be playing a 2/2 for 4 while they're playing a 2/1 for 3 FS, Flying, blah blah blah, but again, 4 mana seals the deal with Flying, and it's pumped by anthem. Trust me, there are numerous amounts of scenarios I can bring up that voids your last statement in the 2nd paragraph.
On a side note, I also forgot to mention, if you're playing Ajani's then yeah Stillmoons would be a better choice because it's most important to have Ajani dropped turn 4 rather than Voice, and Stillmoon could have possibly been dropped the turn before. But I'm only stating that Voice could find a spot instead if you're running Anthems.
First, you stated Stillmoon's pro colors are more solid and consistent than Voice's....uh Error, think that one over again.
Second, you stated RDW boards Extract. Seriously?
Third, not better than Stillmoon among tier 1 decks? It's pretty self explanatory, but I'll type it out for you. Stillmoon only has pro white and black, okay? Period. If it's ever going to be boarded in, then it's usually against Fae and Kith, correct? Guess what, Voice can do the same and more.
Blinks stated exactly what I meant by that in his post, thanks Blinks. You've probably just misinterpreted what I was saying by that. But yes, basically what I meant is that it doesn't slow your tempo at all. You've got other great turn 3 plays, so you can't lose here.
So, costing one less or more doesn't really matter. First strike isn't much of an issue here because Voice will have pro from whatever color you wish. As far as Stillmoon swinging for more than 2, again it's mana intensive, but sure, if you've got mana open and nothing better to do, it's good, but I personally have rarely seen that scenerio because I was doing something else with the mana instead.
Even against Fae, I'd say pro black for tokens and agony warp/terror. Since you don't have pro blue, Sower will take it, sure, but Voice doesn't have pro White simultaneously with Black, which means it doesn't hurt you at all. Whereas Sower snagging a Stillmoon can be backbreaking to you. And you've basically already listed every color above that shows why Voice would be a pretty solid choice. Voice with Pro Red stops all of RDW, not just Demigod/Gouger. So no need for Runed Halo against Demigods if you use them. What else can Voice save you from...basically all the scary cards in standard right?
Sure it may cost one more mana, but it's less mana intensive and has a very important ability built in, evasion. It also won't clunk up the turn 3 play with Anthem/Spec in hand. The big ups on this lady is that it can be used against ANY deck you may have probs with due to it's color choice. Also, if using it against Fae, you don't need to worry about sowers because it doesn't have pro white built in. I wonder why no one has even used this before.
Just a thought that crossed my mind...thought I'd share it.
First I have to say, the deck you're thinking about above, runs mainly on exalted from what I see, and less dependent on swarm/alpha strike. Why even bother with Ajani? Looking at the deck you listed above, I'd say RoE would have a bit more use in there than CGR, but still, as a 4 of I'm not so sure. I also don't like Knight of the White Orchid, and seriously don't think you need it in there.
Second, ROE>CGR. I would call that a crazy call in general, but seriously, they're two different cards. One is board control post-wipe, and the other is search.
Overall, I think that deck isn't going to work out too well, honestly, against a meta. I've tested a similar list/playstyle, and it's a bit slow. It may be less Wrath stress orientated, but Finks and Stillmoons really hurt it. You really are better off just going the good ol fashion route.:-/
Basically, yeah. Just a straight green version.
The other version with black is called Elf-Rock or G/B Elves....I call it a big pile of shiet....
Ha...now that was funny. Totally shot him down.
First and foremost...I must say..........THAT THE STEAK EGG AND CHEESE BAGEL IS MY FAVORITE ON THE BREAKFAST MENU TOO!!! Sooooo greassyyy and yummyyy......hahaha
Anyhoo, Good job on the article there. Although you completely ended up voiding what you said in the 2nd paragraph, lol, it was very detailed; I like it, very informative.
I laughed when you brought the whole thing up about Elspeth because I think we both neglected her a while ago in the old Kith thread when she was first spoiled. But you're right, she deserves the apology.
I also find it pretty funny about your vision on Merfolk because I've actually been following that thread lately, and tested it on mws(ew I know), and I have to agree...it could really be something to watch out for.
Anyways, too bad you couldn't go far in the tourney. Def feel bad for the Quillspike matchup haha, but seems to me you just ran out of gas/answers, oh well, can't answer everything.
I've tested Telling Time before, the only thing it has going is it's instant speed. You've already listed the reasons why you should play Ponder over it.;)
You realize you totally misquoted me, you even failed to read carefully what I stated, and what I quoted.
Just take some more time to reread, and rethink your reply...:rolleyes:
And what happens with the 3rd....4th....5th lands? You're very likely to miss a drop praying to topdeck that other land.
Also, this is Standard, not Legacy. Legacy- There are limitless amounts of ways to work with such a hand, of course, especially when your curve tops out at 2-3. Don't bring another format into a whole different world.
And seriously guys, stop with all the damn calculations and numbers shiet, Statistics with numbers don't verify anything. It's a card game, not math...