- ThatStoryTeller120
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ktkenshinx posted a message on [[Official]] Current Modern Banlist Discussion (2/2014 - 7/2014)With all this discussion about the effect of various cards/unbans/bans in the format, I want to make a historical point about past unbans/bans. Ever since the Valakut unban in September 2012, both this forum and the Modern community more generally have been terrible at evaluating the effect of unbans/bans. With some exceptions, almost all of us dramatize and overstate the effect that a ban/unban have on the format. Scapeshift was supposed to be the most degenerate combo/control monster in the format. Instead, it took over a year for it to win a Grand Prix. The BBE ban was heralded as the Jund killer. Instead, the deck was so still so strong that it took another ban to deal with it. The Song ban supposedly killed Storm. But Storm survived even with DRS still around, and once DRS went the way of BBE, it even thrived (which many players on this forum and elsewhere also didn't think would happen). Fast forward to January of this year and we saw a ban that "killed" BGx decks (decks that are now amongst the top 5 highest performing in the format), an unban that would obsolete all aggro (Zoo is still barely tier 2), and an unban that would probably destroy the format with a format-crushing control deck (Faeries also barely tier 2).Posted in: Modern Archives
(EXCEPTION: Banning Second Sunrise had the exact effect that we all thought it would. Good job us!)
The point is NOT that one unban was good for the format or one ban was bad. The point is that in every case, many of us overstated the effect that the change would have on the format. We evaluated the card and, the decks it affected, incorrectly. There is strong reason to suspect that this is also the case with many cards we are discussing today. Obviously, this doesn't apply to some cards that are clearly broken (Unbanning Skullclamp would be stupid. Banning Pod would definitely destroy Pod decks). But for many other cards (JTMS, SFM, AV, etc.), our track record with unban evaluation has been largely very poor, so there are no guarantees that we are doing it right this time around.
Ultimately, there is an equilibrium and status quo to the format that we often underestimate. It's so easy to overstate our case that we often forget how stable many of these decks are (let alone the metagame as a whole). We need to be more critical and nuanced in card assessment if for no other reason than that the lack of critical/nuanced thinking has been so off base in the past. -
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Scarmask posted a message on [Primer] UB/x FaeriesThat does seem strong, but posts like this and much of the discussion surrounding cards such as pack rat and liliana make me wonder why these strategies are being seemingly shoe-horned into the fae list, as they don't seem overly synergistic. I have to wonder if they really work alongside the fae core at all, or if they're incrementally pushing the fae out.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Liliana of the veil, pack rat, lingering souls, bloodghast, tarmogoyf - these are not cards that synergise with faerie tribal, and certainly not with bitterblossom. These cards are all still good, and some of them may work in a faerie list, but it seems to me like the discussion has really shifted from trying to make the best BUx FAERIE list as possible, and more and more about trying to turn faeries into a totally different archetype, so much so that the faeries themselves seem out of place and pointless. I am of the belief that some sorcery speed effects and non-faeries may be useful for the deck (SoFaF and targeted discard have proven themselves worthy), but the more we add the more we water down the primary plan of the deck and the less synergistic it becomes. The more faerie-relevant, and instant speed cards we remove, the worse spellstutter sprite, mistbind clique, bitterblossom, scion of oona (if you play it) and all of our instants become. This just so happens to be the supposed core of the deck, and the reason we are all here.
By all means suggest and test all manner of things, but the discussion overall really has shifted off course in my opinion, and in many lists the faeries feel totally out of place. -
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Scarmask posted a message on [Primer] UB/x FaeriesI'm not really on board with pack rat or evacuation or even dictate of kruphix (there is so much combo running around, I don't need to help them dig with symmetrical draw), but while we're throwing around wacky ideas I may as well throw in.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
The dictate of kruphix suggestion made me briefly consider dictate of erebos. Could the card see some play? Maybe sideboard play? The flash is highly relevant to the deck, and the effect works well to establish further board dominance for us. Even chumping can devastate the opponent's board, all of a sudden 1/1 faerie tokens are trading with 5/6 goyfs. On the negative, the card does cost 5 mana, is slightly more black heavy than we'd prefer, and doesn't generate us board presence on its own.
I certainly don't have any confidence in the suggestion, but it is healthy to brainstorm other avenues of attack I think. Worth discussing? -
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Earthbound21 posted a message on [[Official]] Current Modern Banlist Discussion (2/2014 - 7/2014)I agree that Wizards is shoehorning Magic to be one way at the cost of what made it a good game to start with. I feel most people in my age group (23-30) that have played the game competitively since 2006 or before feel the same as I do. I believe there are two different groups of Magic players nowadays, with the younger set being the ones that constantly cry "Ban Twin! Ban Pod! Ban Storm! Ban all CAHMBOES!" and the rest of us crying "Unban Ponder!" and it is a direct result of how the game has changed since Lorwyn was released. The cards have been less powerful overall and strategies more pigeoned into the combat zone. We can all say Faeries this and Faeries that, but hear me out.Posted in: Modern Archives
Many of the "backbone" cards of Modern - the cards that define the best decks and best interactions - come from a period before Lorwyn. Granted, somethings like Frogmite don't make the cut anymore, Affinity is still a Cranial Plating Arcbound Ravager deck. More proof? Jund is a Goyf-Bob deck. Storm is storm. Pod is the best version of Project X ever. (Shoutouts to Saffi and Cryptbro) Twin just does what Tooth and Nail used to - get Kiki Jiki and win. I cannot think of a halfway good modern deck (apart from maybe infect?) that isn't shaped from Mirrodin - Timespiral cards. All of the best decks in this format are built around cards from the earliest part of the legal sets. This shows a change in design, but more importantly it shows that the design changes haven't been impactful throughout the years following Timespiral, with few exceptions (Lightning Bolt, notably). This is dangerous for Modern as a format for a few reasons.
First - No new archetypes or decks will emerge given the current trend in design. Sure we can get yet another Lord of Atlantis, but we won't get anything on Aether Vial's powerlevel. Wizards current design promotes two things, creature decks and anti-creature decks. Stack interaction is a thing of the past, and given this philosophy, the goodstuff decks with the most good stuff are going to be the good decks, something which, sadly, has started to make it's way into Modern.
Second - What we have now is what we get. Serum Visions will be the best. Remand will be the best. Zoo and other "fair" aggro decks are dead. Wizards can't possibly top Wild Nacatl without some kind of riot, and Wild Nacatl isn't good enough. Storm won't ever feel like a Storm deck again. The best and only combos permitted hereafter will be creature based ones. The best control cards we will have will be burn spells.
Third - Deck Identity and synergy. This is the difference between Affinity and Goodstuff. This is the difference between Teferi-Teachings and UWR Control. Decks have lost a lot of identity and defining cards and mechanics and synergy in favor of value junk. Deckbuilding isn't done with a strategy and gameplay in mind anymore. Granted, there has always been and always should be a Vindicate and Pernicious Deed hanging around in a format, it shouldn't be at the cost or exclusion of syngery, but such is the case because of Wizards refusal to print good build around cards anymore.
The players who started at Mirrodin or earlier can remember what the formats were like, what the power level of cards were, both in Standard and Extended of the time, whereas the younger group is scared to death by Jace, TMS. Cawblade was just better than the anti-Cawblade deck. That is Wizards fault. Whereas the Dragonstorm deck wasn't any better than the Teachings deck which wasn't any better than the Rack deck or the Gruul deck or what have you. I sympathize with the newer players, I do. But the most fun I've had with this game was in 2007, playing Saturday Extended Tournaments with Dredge, Mind's Desire Storm, Junk, Counter-Top, Tooth and Nail, Next Level Blue (where Goyf was just the best blue card ever), Affinity, Zoo... Everything was there. But gone are the days of diversity and interesting strategies. Say hello to GR Monsters, GR Monsters with some black cards, UW control, UW control with black cards, and a world where putting things onto the table is more rewarded than out smarting, out thinking, or out witting your opponent.
TL;DR - Modern can't grow as a format. -
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vonklaude posted a message on [Primer] UB/x FaeriesPosted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Hammer-head
Thats just not accurate. Being a control deck you lose to "drawing the wrong half of your deck". The less options the worse. It's better for both players to have 7 cards when all of yours 2 for 1 or more (e.g. damnation games) than no one having anything.I think your intuition is reasonable, but after playing Liliana now in a few dozen games I feel differently. What I find is that narrowing everyone's options is net good for the Faeries deck. With 'blossom in play, the fewer spells that are cast, the better. We reach a soft-lock when we hold one counterspell and our opponent holds one spell. Conversely, the more action our opponent has the less potent is our discard, hand knowledge, and counterspells.
I'd like to question parts of what you suggest in order to understand them better. Foremost, let's say that we have drawn the wrong half of our deck: how does having more cards help us in this situation? Liliana of the Veil does not reduce the number of draws we have, she only makes us throw away some of the cards we drew. Can you give an example hand? What is the set of wrong cards you are thinking of?
As a secondary question. My interpretation of the design direction in Modern is that implicit card advantage is being promoted over explicit card advantage. Of course we do still see raw drawing, but an increasing number of cards have an effect and leave a body, or give back a card, or affect multiple targets, or may be flashed back, etc. If our hand is 1x Cryptic and our opponent's is 1x Threat, then any cast by them will both fail to break through Cryptic and put us ahead. Similarly, if we hold 1x Spellstutter and they hold 1x Threat, then given faeries on the board we will counter and gain a body. Or perhaps we hold discard or removal, having not seen any of our counterspells (i.e. we have drawn the wrong cards). Liliana does not worsen this: if we saw a counterspell, we could have kept it. If we hold one card we can use it and then activate Liliana. And of course, we cannot be surprised by our own play of her: i.e. we can hold back lands to pitch.
Liliana herself yields card advantage. We play Liliana and trigger primary going to 4 loyalty. A great many decks in the format will now need two cards to remove her. Or we trigger secondary and it still takes a card to remove her.
Quote from Hammer-headOn a topdeck war we lose to goodstuff since we're synergy, e.g. opponent topdecks mirran crussader we draw bitterblossom. Another exameple, mana leak vs loxodon smitter, you get the point. Hence jace being better except in the lacking an edict part. If his +2 was the same but -1 was a boomerang effect, it would be an awesome and well balanced card, hence why TMS is safe for modern, but anyway.
We don't play Liliana all the way down to top-decking, in fact. We play her down to holding 1 card and drawing 1. So of our recent draws we are holding the card we believe most effective against our opponent. Don't forget Liliana of the Veil's ultimate: our opponent is under pressure to remove her.
I see what you mean about synergising. Say we hold Cryptic and draw Mistbind. We would perhaps not want to trigger Liliana's primary in that situation as we might like either card. But if we hold Cryptic and draw nearly anything else, we probably would trigger her primary. I think the basic theory is this. Bitterblossom gives us free actions (virtual-cards or tempo): with 'blossom in play the fewer other actions that can occur in the game, the more likely we are to win. If our opponent lacks free actions we create asymmetry by playing Liliana. -
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Wraith223 posted a message on [Primer] UB/x FaeriesI noticed there are a few here trying to discredit/fight with the deck. It takes patience to play the deck and trust. I used to play Jund and since they banded the 2 cards I loved; Faeries were a happy old friendship returned. Play the deck as an old friend, not a race horse expecting the perfect answers. The deck will reward you if you keep calm and draw the counter spells. There is no "winning" build, but "meta" builds. You need to use your own damn brain to build the best Faerie Deck for you. I need more land shut down and anti aggro builds.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Against UWR control is use Flashfreeze, spells kite, Glen Elendra Archmage, Discard (if I added them for the meta) and more counter spells. Have not lost yet to one. Celestial Collinade becomes online at I believe turn 6-7, thus you have time to get their hand under control.
Merfolk has cost me one game from missing good draws, but generally I swing over and just kill the pumping dudes. Damnation, Engineered explosives, and more discard is all I can think of using. Island walk can be an issue, but just kill the dudes with that enable the ability. I win sometimes by blocking with anything if they get going and going for Gold with Creeping Tar Pit. Sometimes Bile Blight might be good here if they over extend on pump dudes, but Sword of Fire and Ice becomes MVP fast if you draw it. -
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Eyron posted a message on [Primer] UB/x FaeriesPosted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Mongers "n DeedsI don't want to be down on this deck, as it's something I really want to see succeed. Having said that, in all of my testing with various lists, it just feels like a worse version of other tempo and/or tempo-control decks already available in the format. Is there a major incentive to playing this list over, say, a UWR Flash, UWR Geist, or even the UR Delver/Pyromancer lists we've seen? The deck just feels like you're giving up so many tools for the sake of playing Bitterblossom.
cool. don't let the door hit you on the way out.
rather tired of you coming in every two pages saying "oh, i wish this would work. but it's just so terrible. " either actually contribute something useful or kindly click the back button if you enter the thread. -
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moz.the.blessed posted a message on [Primer] Jeskai Control / UWR ControlPosted in: Modern Archives - ProvenQuote from GentleGenocideYou can't steal Kiki activation... "you control".
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. The Deceiver Exarch + Kiki combo is spellskite proof.
my bad... have mercy
EDIT : (Clarification) Gentle Genocide PM-ed me to apologize if he in case annoyed me. But in fact I didn't feel annoyed at all. My sentence above intended to be a funny one. Sorry if my sentence caused misunderstanding. My clarification here is to completely prevent (if any) further misunderstanding from any other user. Thank you for your good will Gentle Genocide. Appreciate it, really. -
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nilgoun posted a message on [Primer] UB/x FaeriesWe could open another line of thought: What exactly do we think the metagame looks right now (or for the foreseeable future: What metagame do you expect at GP Richmond?). If we really fear a huge wave of Zoo and Pod, would one want to presideboard for those matchups? Kind of what Looooo* was probably trying to accomplish some pages back:Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
If you really expect zoo/pod to be dominant, it would be a valid choice to "preboard" 2 EE and 3 Deathmark for the discard (as you still have the discard out of the board for combo matchups). You could think about going for Phyrexian Crusader mainboard, as it's still valid against UWR variants. In this scenario you would only lose some preboard matchups %'s against pure UR decks, boggles and possibly affinity (maybe I'm forgetting something here) and even in this matchups the EE's are shining.
I think pure UB can handle the tough situations, if you metagame accordingly. I don't really see the necessity for this, but anyways: any thoughts on metagame analysis and "presideboarding"?
*I guess you said you are sick against losing against zoo, don't know if you wanted to pack the discard into the sideboard.. but I'm sorry that I probably misunderstood your whole point, as you clearly wanted to simply metagame in retrospective! - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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I like simple things like reducing my opponent's options and killing my opponent with more subtle cards, and it really feels like Mistbind Clique and Cryptic Command are all the haymaker-like effects we need, but we might need to find ways to make them more consistent (not counting matchup-specific tech, which batterskull can be...just not for me), or have cards that turn on until they become active (which is where my interest in liliana of the veil came from i think).
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On the discard issue, I have found that the information which the 1cmc spells give you is what makes the deck run so well. Information is one of the tools the player of the deck uses to maneuver around the opponent and go on an offensive. Even in the aggressive matchups inquisition rips a few of the earlier plays out of the opponent's hand while still leaving mana open to interact with whatever card is topdecked in turns 1-3
Its a tool I cant see myself not using. As a UWR player and an Ex-UR faeries player I cant tell you how often bolt has been the card to see, but with regard to the other red cards you really have to understand what the card does for the deck it is in, and that includes what effort is being put forth to accomodate the card. Honestly the deck cant be perfect so its a decision of IF you can use the cards you are considering to create advantage in your environment. When my environment becomes overly aggressive I will probably consider grixis myself honestly, but right now I am completely okay with Disfigure because playing the card leaves me with more breathing room and time in the form of bitterblossom tokens.
But I would like to bring attention to another frame of the discussion. I am a player who considers psychological effect of an opponent seeing a card very important when building a deck (which is why I have been reconsidering Secluded Glen as a part of my manabase, but that is a different discussion)
ANYWAY. How many cards do you all believe this deck has which have the potential to take over a game? And how many do you feel the deck needs? This question disregards the effect of Creeping Tar Pit as it takes up a land slot, but it should be included with regard to the aggressive capabilities of the deck...as it puts games away very well. Shouta Yasooka played two Liliana of the veil and two sword of feast and famine in his list to compliment Mistbind Clique and Vendilion Clique. Our more common lists have gone the route of swords like Fire and Ice and Light and Shadow to race and produce more options to consider in our hand of cards, but the strong question in my wordy explanation would be "how many threatening cards do you think compliment tight play without hindering it?"
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The difference here is that jund had no obvious deck edit or sideboard plan to defeat it,like the original copter control decks did...but both decks apparently made the game unfun, so Im not against them doing something to lessen the dominance of jund, but the way they did this was out of left field. I thought it would have been better to give us more power to play with
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I think abrupt decay is going to give me a fairly large headache in this format. And im not seeing much that I am psyched for (nothing psyches me anymore lol, new jace is interesting izzet charm in storm yada yada)
I guess my opinion will change when i find cards good in naya pod or something that makes me want to build with heartbeat of spring. Control does seem to be a friendlier concept in modern but most of the good ones are pushed towards midrange, the new jace and abrupt decay make me think a bug control deck could be really good in modern but tarmogoyf is a serious problem because he seems to be the only relevant threat.
Also i would really like to see return to ravnica split apart the melding of the delver deck and the zoo deck because they are getting too friendly lol tribal flames midrange just seems to be the best direction for both in all honesty, and that kinda scares my bank account ($400 on 4 cards doesnt sound fun)