How does the ordering on the combined instant/sorcery go? If I combine Reverse Damage and Flame Rift, can I choose to make sure that the Reverse Damage effect happens before Flame Rift's?
Note: Coercion has technically been illegal all along, just because of Eladamri's Vineyard. It is why a reworking on permission and discard is needed, and why rule 1.5 exists in the meantime.
I don't think that's correct. Unless you can also force the opponent to play Eladamri's Vineyard they can simply choose to not play it.
-“spells can’t be countered . . . by other abilities” is ambiguous, since a spell is not an ability. Can a second-turn Mana Vortex resolve without the sacrifice of a land?
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-Blood Funnel may see more play. That’s neither good nor bad, but it’s also not intuitive.
1.5. Spells can't be countered by other spells or abilities until each player has completed at least 2 full turns.
You might just want to add in "controlled by another player" after "abilities" (or maybe "owned" instead of "controlled").
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can do any the following before the end of an opponent's second turn: (a) force any card in an opponent's hand to change zones, (b) counter an opponent's cast spell, or (c) win the game. Submission legality is checked against any and all opposing decks that do not cause a rule to be broken by it's own actions or choices.
Yes. Sylvan Safekeeper doesn't counter anything. It merely makes the target illegal and the game rules counter the spell. Same thing with the mention of Lightning Bolt earlier.
I prefer the existing land rule to the one that puts lands into your hand. However, I do admit that the alternate land rule has some merit. What I wouldn't mind seeing is us keeping the current land rule, but then every so often use the alternate land rule to keep things fresh. For instance run 4 weeks using the normal rule, then run 2 weeks with the alternate, rinse, repeat (or it could be 6/2 instead of 4/2).
Another option would be to use the current rule with an optional replacement effect. I'm not sure exactly how to word it so that it works as intended, but here's my thought:
Instead of playing a land, a player may choose a basic land card from outside the game then either put that land card into play, or put that card into their hand. If they put that card into their hand, they may play it at any time they could normally play a land.
I'm just not sure how to replace the land drop, but then give it back if they decide to put it into their hand, all the while preventing them from repeating the action multiple times (if they get their land drop back). Also, I guess this doesn't check to see if their library is empty either. But I thought I'd throw the idea out there.
vs 05 Shogun17 - 0-6
E has three answers for my three questions. The fact that Syncopate exiles Purity is really sad for me. And after he answers my questions, he's left with a Hedge-Mage I can't deal with.
I had it scored 6-0 in your favor, but after thinking about it a bit more, I think it might be a 4-1 in my favor.
If you go first, you can flip the mayor and produce a wolf before I can do anything. I kill the mayor on turn 3 leaving you with a figure and a 2/2 wolf. On turn 4, I cast my Hag and put my pulse on top. On turn 5, I pulse your figure. Then I can keep my mana open to counter purity. This leaves my 2/2 up against your 2/2 wolf.
When I go first, it's mostly the same except I can kill the mayor before it transforms and makes a wolf, so i end up winning that one.
05 Shogun17 :: I'm playing a Hag for the fun of it! Hag Hedge-Mage / Syncopate / Maelstrom Pulse The hag was random. So random, I wonder if there was a specific matchup you were intending to defeat. Your Maelstrom Pulse gift worked well for you. You owe Tane a thanx.
As for the Hag, I thought its versatility would work well with whatever I received (and it did). However, having only a 2/2 as a threat, and no way to protect it from anything costing less than 4 cost me.
2 vs. 12 02 Draco9 :: Toxicity Inkmoth Nexus / Cranial Plating / Darksteel Citadel
listed as 6-0, should be 0-6
If he ever animates his Nexus when I have an untapped Megalith, it gets Bolted.
5 vs. 12 05 Reyemile :: In Bloom Azusa, Lost but Seeking / Llanawar Reborn / Rishadan Port
listed as 6-0, should be 0-6
Azuza gets Bolted. He can only tap 1 additional land every 2 turns. I eventually get to 3 open mana and get Bridge out of my hand and then kill him with Megaliths.
9 vs. 12 09 Parsley :: The Great Destroyer Vesuva / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre / Cloudpost
listed as 0-6, should be 6-0
He gets Ulamog down on turn 3 killing one of my Megaliths before I have 3 mana available. He then attacks next turn and annhilates the rest of my lands.
Also there could be problems with the extra card... it potentially can set up T1 kills.
That shouldn't matter. T1 kills are legal if they happen. You just can't submit a deck that can kill T1. Since you're only submitting 2/3 of your deck, you just have to make sure that the part you submit is legal.
I win on the play. When 10 goes first, on my second turn, we both have 3 untapped lands. I play Exploration and can pay 2 for Syncopate. I win from there.
09 DragonDart :: I Can't Actually Win.dec Gaea's Touch / Karn Liberated I have long thought Karn should be illegal since it can't technically win unless the opponent is playing something specific. However, it's gambling nature has given it no such outcry. That said, this was a great round for him, and a 3rd turn Karn is perfection.
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2.2. Decks are subject to some restrictions.
2.2a. A player may not submit a deck that can – against any deck – force any card in an opponent's hand to change zones or Win the Game before an opponent's second turn.
2.2b. A player may not submit a deck that can't win both games of a match against at least one deck satisfying 2.2a and 2.2c.
2.2c. A deck may include any number of any card legal in Vintage (Type 1), with the exception of the following banned cards:
I have the same feeling you did regarding the deck with Karn, in that it can't win against a goldfish. However, the way the rules are written (namely 2.2b), it's a legal deck. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but I suppose as long as it's not too dominating it should be alright.
I think fnord and Shogun's poll entries need to be separate. My vote is for fnord, for Command Tower.
I guess it's a good thing the poll is for creativity and not efficiency. I had thought about including a uselessland instead of Forest, but I figured on the remote possibility that there was something that might take advantage of a non-basic land, I'd just go with a basic since we can all produce those anyway. I guess the 0.005% edge may have cost me in the creativity department.
is listed as 2-2, but should be 6-0. He will only ever have 1 card in his hand during each of his upkeeps. On turns after he puts Top on the top of his library he draws the Top instead of putting a land into his hand (since his library wasn't empty). He'll play the land he drew off the Top last turn, then use the top to draw one land, having at most 1 card in his hand to start his turn. This also applies to 21 vs. 6 as well.
Thanks to Ancient Tomb, I always Dust Bowl first, which means I get to dust bowl twice and he doesn't get to do it at all, and my targets are Inkmoth Nexus and either Treetop Village or his green source. I believe I can then just beatdown with Inky.
(failing that, he certainly can't WIN!)
Actually, if I wait to play Inkmoth Nexus until last you either need to have destroyed two of my other lands, or you leave me enough to destroy one of your lands. The best you can do I think is to force a tie by destroying my Pendelhaven and one other non-Nexus land before I can lay my 5th land. This leaves me with a Nexus to go up against your Nexus which results in a tie. Or you can wait for me to lay my Nexus, in which case I can destroy your Nexus. Either way though, it would be a tie.
If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it, put a basic land card of your choice from outside the game into your hand instead. (This replaces our normal 2CB land rules)
Which creature is the commander? I don't think it matters in my matchup, but it might for others.
Here's what I came up with for my results grid:
X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
25| 6 6 6 6 0 0 x 0 0 6 6 0 6 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 S 0 0 6 x 0 | 74
.....1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5
3 | 6 0 0 6 6 6 0 6 6 6 6 6 x 6 6 | 66
I don't think that's correct. Unless you can also force the opponent to play Eladamri's Vineyard they can simply choose to not play it.
You might just want to add in "controlled by another player" after "abilities" (or maybe "owned" instead of "controlled").
Yes. Sylvan Safekeeper doesn't counter anything. It merely makes the target illegal and the game rules counter the spell. Same thing with the mention of Lightning Bolt earlier.
Another option would be to use the current rule with an optional replacement effect. I'm not sure exactly how to word it so that it works as intended, but here's my thought:
Instead of playing a land, a player may choose a basic land card from outside the game then either put that land card into play, or put that card into their hand. If they put that card into their hand, they may play it at any time they could normally play a land.
I'm just not sure how to replace the land drop, but then give it back if they decide to put it into their hand, all the while preventing them from repeating the action multiple times (if they get their land drop back). Also, I guess this doesn't check to see if their library is empty either. But I thought I'd throw the idea out there.
I had it scored 6-0 in your favor, but after thinking about it a bit more, I think it might be a 4-1 in my favor.
If you go first, you can flip the mayor and produce a wolf before I can do anything. I kill the mayor on turn 3 leaving you with a figure and a 2/2 wolf. On turn 4, I cast my Hag and put my pulse on top. On turn 5, I pulse your figure. Then I can keep my mana open to counter purity. This leaves my 2/2 up against your 2/2 wolf.
When I go first, it's mostly the same except I can kill the mayor before it transforms and makes a wolf, so i end up winning that one.
05 Shogun17 :: I'm playing a Hag for the fun of it!
Hag Hedge-Mage / Syncopate / Maelstrom Pulse
The hag was random. So random, I wonder if there was a specific matchup you were intending to defeat. Your Maelstrom Pulse gift worked well for you. You owe Tane a thanx.
X | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | PT
5 | 0 0 2 S X 0 0 0 4 0 0 2 1 S 0 2 6 | 21
As for the Hag, I thought its versatility would work well with whatever I received (and it did). However, having only a 2/2 as a threat, and no way to protect it from anything costing less than 4 cost me.
12 Shogun17 :: Bridge Burning
Lightning Bolt / Ensnaring Bridge / Keldon Megaliths
2 vs. 12
02 Draco9 :: Toxicity
Inkmoth Nexus / Cranial Plating / Darksteel Citadel
listed as 6-0, should be 0-6
If he ever animates his Nexus when I have an untapped Megalith, it gets Bolted.
5 vs. 12
05 Reyemile :: In Bloom
Azusa, Lost but Seeking / Llanawar Reborn / Rishadan Port
listed as 6-0, should be 0-6
Azuza gets Bolted. He can only tap 1 additional land every 2 turns. I eventually get to 3 open mana and get Bridge out of my hand and then kill him with Megaliths.
9 vs. 12
09 Parsley :: The Great Destroyer
Vesuva / Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre / Cloudpost
listed as 0-6, should be 6-0
He gets Ulamog down on turn 3 killing one of my Megaliths before I have 3 mana available. He then attacks next turn and annhilates the rest of my lands.
That shouldn't matter. T1 kills are legal if they happen. You just can't submit a deck that can kill T1. Since you're only submitting 2/3 of your deck, you just have to make sure that the part you submit is legal.
08 Shogun17 :: Valakut to the Max
Exploration / Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
vs.
10 Antonia :: In-Sync Robots
Syncopate / Urza's Factory
It's listed as 4-1, and should be 6-0.
I win on the play. When 10 goes first, on my second turn, we both have 3 untapped lands. I play Exploration and can pay 2 for Syncopate. I win from there.
I have the same feeling you did regarding the deck with Karn, in that it can't win against a goldfish. However, the way the rules are written (namely 2.2b), it's a legal deck. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but I suppose as long as it's not too dominating it should be alright.
I guess it's a good thing the poll is for creativity and not efficiency. I had thought about including a useless land instead of Forest, but I figured on the remote possibility that there was something that might take advantage of a non-basic land, I'd just go with a basic since we can all produce those anyway. I guess the 0.005% edge may have cost me in the creativity department.
Dark Suspicions / Forest
vs.
06 Tane :: Taneful Omen*
Sensei's Divining Top / Baneful Omen
is listed as 2-2, but should be 6-0. He will only ever have 1 card in his hand during each of his upkeeps. On turns after he puts Top on the top of his library he draws the Top instead of putting a land into his hand (since his library wasn't empty). He'll play the land he drew off the Top last turn, then use the top to draw one land, having at most 1 card in his hand to start his turn. This also applies to 21 vs. 6 as well.
Actually, if I wait to play Inkmoth Nexus until last you either need to have destroyed two of my other lands, or you leave me enough to destroy one of your lands. The best you can do I think is to force a tie by destroying my Pendelhaven and one other non-Nexus land before I can lay my 5th land. This leaves me with a Nexus to go up against your Nexus which results in a tie. Or you can wait for me to lay my Nexus, in which case I can destroy your Nexus. Either way though, it would be a tie.
Are we skipping the play/draw rule?