4 force of will
4 chalice
3 spell snare
3 skullclamp
and you could fill the rest out with broken stuff and whatnot. being able to drop your hand over and over through cannonist. skullclamp will only take out ravager at first, but either multiples or a ravager will turn it into a legit draw engine.
you could also run wastes and a couple of factories, and factories would get the pump from master as well, which is sweet.
why not crop rotation into bazaar? that way your filtering bad cards out and new cards in. And instead of running a ton of different win conditions, I think that you should run multiple of the best ones, and leave the specialty ones in the side. something like
I would say that dazes and gush would be ok in the deck, especially considering the prevalence that strip locks will have in the upcoming meta. Over at the mana drain, there are 2 versions of a similiar deck. Here is the first version:
// Spells
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Life from the Loam
1 Time Walk
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Tinker
The other variant they are talking about is taking out the forces and ak's and making a bob/duress package. I'm assuming this variant might not want to play with tinker colossus, seeing as how that is almost an auto-lose. One of the issues they had with the u/g deck is that it was threat-light. I'm wondering if this could be solved with a couple of vendillion clique? 3 mana flyer that has flash and acts as disruption seems really good.
If you do the taiga plan, goyf is an excellent sideboard card. it is not susceptible to artifact hate, and it turns you into workshop aggro. this also goes really well with thorn (side?) with tangle wires. I would recommend cutting one crucible, considering multiples are pretty useless. perhaps a fastbond? Since you have so much extra land because of bazaars, laying 2-3 a turn would be sick, especially once you find crucible.
choke sb is also an interesting idea, landing that against a blue deck is awesome. Perhaps with all of the green cards a couple fetches would be needed. to get the taigas. maybe one in place of a barbarian ring and one in the side.
this seems to be the perfect deck to try to experiment with life from the loam in a welder deck. bazaar is awesome with life from the loam, and life from the loam is awesome with welder. just something to think about.
I can never decide whether or not I want yawgwill in this deck. It could be back-breaking, but it would most likely remove lotus from the game, which makes me uneasy. My graveyard might also have little more than creatures and land, too.
Pyrite spellbomb is unnecessary in this build. drawing your deck and then timewalking with a ton of creatures in play seems good. you can also just play out the timevault combo and win.
I'm not sure if thoughtseize or negate should go in that spot. I like negate because with a mox and a land, you can stop a rod on the draw. It also won't open you to waste. 3 drains may also seem strange, but there really just isn't room. The 2nd negate took the spot, because it comes on line a turn earlier with acceleration.
I wanted to try the timevault combo because of the awesome synergy with trinket mage. all you have to do is come into salvagers or vault, and trinket mage finds the other piece.
The deck did have 4 welder, but I cut 1 for a goyf, giving me plays that do not revolve around welder. And the reason that the deck hates on artifacts so much is because mana denial is basically the only disruption the deck has, so it better hose everything.
chalice also serves great for welding when they are not useful.
heap doll also serves as a survival target that can be welded out, and it also has a useful function. Triskelavus does not play nice with null rod. But razormane masticore would.
Aven mindscensor locks out survival, but not bazaar.
The cutter looks good. It is one of the only spells in your deck that won't be card disadvantage. And the contagion seems to take out the important creatures while still remaining useful against bigger creatures. and, the shining shoal definately adds a cool dimension to the deck, turning a goyf against the other player could be game-breaking.
I have always liked tnt, but it just did not seem to work. the workshops were really hard to get working with survival, which is really color and mana hungry. it did have the ability to pump out threats at an alarming rate, but the whole deck seemed really awkward.
Then, a couple months ago, beder from the mana drain posted a very interesting list. With a couple of personal touches, here is my list;
Survival is an incredible engine, especially with squee. and the welder-> big guy puts you in a really good position really fast. goyf is huge as well, applying major presure and condensing the game. Plus, anger + survival turns welder into a huge issue, weld in titan and attack for 7 with an armageddon. or even a string of goyfs will do the trick. hasty goyf is a good proposition.
I wanted to run only 3 chalice because chalice @ 1&2 is not really an option in this deck, and 3 or higher is hopeful at best. So 3 allows me to see it often in opening hands, but reduces the useless multiples. 1 dryad arbor could also be tossed in at some point, being useful for pitching to survival and it a threat that can be fetched. anger even lets you tap it the turn it comes into play.
Why would you be casting it? dread return seems to work fine. The issue that I have with the kelpie is not its speed, as it lets you draw/dredge a ton of cards, but that it has no discard outlet attached like cephalid guy. but dread kelpie, therapy on kelpie draws 3 cards, moeba draws a card, therapies draw cards, and so does tons of other things.
My point with hypnotist/woodfall is that if an early win is not early enough, these guys do their thing by themselves, without needing a ton of zombies. If the fkz combo would have won, these will most likely have as well. Maybe I am wrong about the #'s, and maybe it should be 2 hypnotist. But I do think that woodfall at least has sideboard merit, maybe. maybe not.
They also run unmask and chalice usually. But you definately can race it, I don't think its all that bad. but probably unfavorable. a couple extirpate, a couple jailer, and a couple crypts should be good. maybe a crypt and a relic, since the relic cantrips.
I don't like cephalid sage because I don't like the flamekin combo. It requires you to have a 6 zombies left over to be lethal. I like woodfall + hypnotist because they make sure your oponent doesn't win. Not enough zombies/cards to kill with the zealot? Thats where I would animate an ichorid or something, and would probably have at least a couple zombies laying around. Woodfall comes into play, destroys mana, sac to therapy, destroys more mana. Win next turn. With hypnotist, saccing 2 creatures means more or less mindtwisting them.
@ylc: I believe that you are wrong about skullclamp, 100%. I play the grapeshot version with no crossroads and 1 eternal witness, and skullclamp is great. I usually try to lay it down the turn before I start comboing, just so I have the mana next turn. But if you start making mana, it is not unreasonable to drop it and start clamping guys. It doesn't matter that they die, because if grapeshot won't kill them, summoners pact eternal witness grapeshot will. This is why I think that hivemaster is unnecessary. Perhaps sideboard for chalice aggro and stax or something.
quirion ranger is a card that I think should at least be a 3-of. If you only have 1 land and a quirion, you can tap the land, play quirion, return the land, and play it again. That is a good way to lowball on mana, which really helps when comboing out.
elricjc, It seems that you run a lot of cards that would not help while comboing out. pact of negation seems unnecessary, mostly because it doesn't really counter chalice at 1, which seems to be the biggest threat. the spirit guides will also be somewhat dissapointing mid-combo, which is why I also only run 1 to get with pact.
I think that you are also missing out on symbiote, he is great for exactly the reasons atikin explained. visionary I think is a card that could be cut down, but I like it, and the picture is great.
The thing is that grape shot is uncounterable. counters are far more prevalent than stifle. If I was playing against stifle, i'd just wait one turn and alpha swing with a crapload of elves.
The elves deck I tested with looked something like this:
I might need to up the amount of visionaries , but I like the deck otherwise. With such a low amount of things that cost 1, the deck probably combos a little easier than others with numerous hivemasters and such, but a little more damaged by chalice. ancient grudge?
natural order may also be up for inclusion in the deck. with it, I could order up regal force for 4 mana and a creature rather than 10 with chord. I could also side things like progenitus, hellkite overlord, maybe even verdant force (good with skullclamp).
You could also just draw your deck, play all your creatures, then cast time walk. or if you can't cast time walk, just hold 5 counters and a couple draw spells.
apparently fatestitcher is all the rage in tournaments now, making dredge much faster and less resistant to countermagic (as compared to the mana version). it takes all of the positive effects of mana ichorid (really explosive with things such as breakthrough, and good sideboard options) Without the vulnerability to a well-placed counterspell. it makes you a little more reliant on bazaar, but thats old news.
it also gives you another creature to sack, or possibly even attack with. and it makes lotus good in this deck again.
to be fair, if against targetted draw, misdirection and comandeer (which works against non-targetted draw as well) become draw spells. that may not fix the card advantage issue, but it is something to consider. Also, it may be card disadvantage, but there is adecent amount of disruption in the deck. 3 misdirection 4 force seems like decent countermagic protection.
With that said, I think those unmasks should be main. why risk an early threat you can't counter when you can just pick it out of their hand. Then, they can't wait to draw counter-magic. I'd say something like -1 cave in, -1 pyrokinesis, -1 maelstrom angel, -1 something else. then, your disruption would consist of
4 force of will
3-4 unmask
3 misdirection
3 comandeer.
4 frogmite
4 master of etherium
4 ethersworn cannonist
3 ravager
4 force of will
4 chalice
3 spell snare
3 skullclamp
and you could fill the rest out with broken stuff and whatnot. being able to drop your hand over and over through cannonist. skullclamp will only take out ravager at first, but either multiples or a ravager will turn it into a legit draw engine.
you could also run wastes and a couple of factories, and factories would get the pump from master as well, which is sweet.
2 angel of despair
2 hellkite overlord
2 inkwell
1 akroma
1 bogardan hellkite
1 platinum
Snake Pit
// Lands
3 Forest
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
4 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
3 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Darksteel Colossus
// Spells
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Life from the Loam
1 Time Walk
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Tinker
The other variant they are talking about is taking out the forces and ak's and making a bob/duress package. I'm assuming this variant might not want to play with tinker colossus, seeing as how that is almost an auto-lose. One of the issues they had with the u/g deck is that it was threat-light. I'm wondering if this could be solved with a couple of vendillion clique? 3 mana flyer that has flash and acts as disruption seems really good.
choke sb is also an interesting idea, landing that against a blue deck is awesome. Perhaps with all of the green cards a couple fetches would be needed. to get the taigas. maybe one in place of a barbarian ring and one in the side.
this seems to be the perfect deck to try to experiment with life from the loam in a welder deck. bazaar is awesome with life from the loam, and life from the loam is awesome with welder. just something to think about.
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
3 tundra
2 underground sea
3 island
5 mox
4 sol crypt lotus petal
3 trinket mage
3 aven mindscenor
2 auriok salvagers
1 tinker
1 inkwell leviathan
1 time-vault
1 voltaic key
4 thirst for knowledge
1 gifts
1 mystical
1 demonic tutor
1 merchant scroll
1 ancestral
1 time walk
1 brainstorm
1 echoing truth
4 force of will
3 mana drain
2 negate/thoughtseize
1 aether spellbomb
1 engineered explosives
1 sensei's divining top
1 tormod's crypt/heap doll
I can never decide whether or not I want yawgwill in this deck. It could be back-breaking, but it would most likely remove lotus from the game, which makes me uneasy. My graveyard might also have little more than creatures and land, too.
Pyrite spellbomb is unnecessary in this build. drawing your deck and then timewalking with a ton of creatures in play seems good. you can also just play out the timevault combo and win.
I'm not sure if thoughtseize or negate should go in that spot. I like negate because with a mox and a land, you can stop a rod on the draw. It also won't open you to waste. 3 drains may also seem strange, but there really just isn't room. The 2nd negate took the spot, because it comes on line a turn earlier with acceleration.
I wanted to try the timevault combo because of the awesome synergy with trinket mage. all you have to do is come into salvagers or vault, and trinket mage finds the other piece.
what do you guys think?
chalice also serves great for welding when they are not useful.
heap doll also serves as a survival target that can be welded out, and it also has a useful function. Triskelavus does not play nice with null rod. But razormane masticore would.
Aven mindscensor locks out survival, but not bazaar.
Then, a couple months ago, beder from the mana drain posted a very interesting list. With a couple of personal touches, here is my list;
4 taiga
2 basics
5 strips
3 bazaar
2 mox
1 black lotus
4 simian spirit guide
4 null rod
3 chalice of the void
2 life from the loam
1 ancient grudge
4 survival of the fittest
3 goblin welder
3 tarmogoyf
2 sundering titan
1 inkwell leviathan
1 heap doll
1 ingot chewer
1 anger
1 squee, goblin nabob
1 gorilla shaman
Survival is an incredible engine, especially with squee. and the welder-> big guy puts you in a really good position really fast. goyf is huge as well, applying major presure and condensing the game. Plus, anger + survival turns welder into a huge issue, weld in titan and attack for 7 with an armageddon. or even a string of goyfs will do the trick. hasty goyf is a good proposition.
I wanted to run only 3 chalice because chalice @ 1&2 is not really an option in this deck, and 3 or higher is hopeful at best. So 3 allows me to see it often in opening hands, but reduces the useless multiples. 1 dryad arbor could also be tossed in at some point, being useful for pitching to survival and it a threat that can be fetched. anger even lets you tap it the turn it comes into play.
what do you guys think?
My point with hypnotist/woodfall is that if an early win is not early enough, these guys do their thing by themselves, without needing a ton of zombies. If the fkz combo would have won, these will most likely have as well. Maybe I am wrong about the #'s, and maybe it should be 2 hypnotist. But I do think that woodfall at least has sideboard merit, maybe. maybe not.
I don't like cephalid sage because I don't like the flamekin combo. It requires you to have a 6 zombies left over to be lethal. I like woodfall + hypnotist because they make sure your oponent doesn't win. Not enough zombies/cards to kill with the zealot? Thats where I would animate an ichorid or something, and would probably have at least a couple zombies laying around. Woodfall comes into play, destroys mana, sac to therapy, destroys more mana. Win next turn. With hypnotist, saccing 2 creatures means more or less mindtwisting them.
quirion ranger is a card that I think should at least be a 3-of. If you only have 1 land and a quirion, you can tap the land, play quirion, return the land, and play it again. That is a good way to lowball on mana, which really helps when comboing out.
elricjc, It seems that you run a lot of cards that would not help while comboing out. pact of negation seems unnecessary, mostly because it doesn't really counter chalice at 1, which seems to be the biggest threat. the spirit guides will also be somewhat dissapointing mid-combo, which is why I also only run 1 to get with pact.
I think that you are also missing out on symbiote, he is great for exactly the reasons atikin explained. visionary I think is a card that could be cut down, but I like it, and the picture is great.
The elves deck I tested with looked something like this:
4 summoners pact
4 land grant
4 glimpse of nature
4 skullclamp
4 wirewood symbiote
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
4 birchlore ranger
4 llanowar elves
3 fyndorn elves
3 quirion ranger
2-3 visionary
1 grapeshot
1 elvish spirit guide
1 regal force
1 eternal witness/sex elf
mana
I might need to up the amount of visionaries , but I like the deck otherwise. With such a low amount of things that cost 1, the deck probably combos a little easier than others with numerous hivemasters and such, but a little more damaged by chalice. ancient grudge?
natural order may also be up for inclusion in the deck. with it, I could order up regal force for 4 mana and a creature rather than 10 with chord. I could also side things like progenitus, hellkite overlord, maybe even verdant force (good with skullclamp).
it also gives you another creature to sack, or possibly even attack with. and it makes lotus good in this deck again.
With that said, I think those unmasks should be main. why risk an early threat you can't counter when you can just pick it out of their hand. Then, they can't wait to draw counter-magic. I'd say something like -1 cave in, -1 pyrokinesis, -1 maelstrom angel, -1 something else. then, your disruption would consist of
4 force of will
3-4 unmask
3 misdirection
3 comandeer.