I feel like this might be better in the "standard" subforum--possibly in the "deck creation" sub.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
I tried Clash of Wills, but I prefer Calculated Dismissal for the Scry 2. It's really important late game, when I need to keep having gas and not drawing more and more lands (lost games because of it).
The only thing Clash of Wills help is that it indeed can be played with 2 lands. It is sometimes great. But late game I feel it has basically no uses, while Calculated Dismissal is good on turn 3 and turn X to filter up your next draws...
But I agree with you whole-heartedly! Im gonna run 25 lands! Will move the Trail of Evidence to the SD...
OK, scry is nice, but, late game that is all it is likely to give you. I'd bet clash has more play at both the early and late game much of the time. Also, don't discount a counterspell on turn two--that one turn difference is HUGE.
So, I realize this is a month later, but I just put a list together--fairly similar to the OPs, and I've liked it so far. So I'm looking for suggestions. Anyway, I wanted to call this "B/G/C Nothing Fancy Midrange" as I'm not trying to do anything except grind value. Anywho, I'd love some suggestions.
I decided that hitting heavy black was more important than anything else the deck was doing, which forced me to downplay green. Notably, crumbling vestige has overperformed in fixing for this deck, to the point that I went up to the full four, after testing on two and three. I also tried deathcap cultivator but ended up no liking him as much as I thought. Importantly, getting delirium with this deck has been…challenging. If you don’t see evolving wilds, he is usually a 2/1 elf in a world of 2/3s. Either way, I’m usually using discard and removal the first few turns anyway, so getting a seer or Kalitas a turn early rarely pays off much.
I also haven’t liked the gitrog monster. The lack of evasion means that he is chumped for days against a number of token producers. You could say the same about seer and Kalitas, but seer’s immediate impact is great and kalitas is a value engine, regardless of what they are doing.
Other than those differences, I’m largely on the same plan as the OP. Right now, I have about two flexible slots, in terms of hangarback and bearer of silence—both of which have been good but not great at times. I’ve considered going up on the number of Smashers, but I kind of like where my curve is now.
I also need suggestions for the sideboard. Clip wings is mostly for westvale abbey, as I have few other outs. Moreover, someone at my shop is playing fevered visions and, in general, I’d kind of like to work in a way to run some enchantment/artifact removal. Any suggestions about what is the best option currently? Both root out and conclave naturalists seem OK but a bit clunky.
I feel like this might be better in the "standard" subforum--possibly in the "deck creation" sub.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
I actually agree with a lot of the rarity shifts (sorry folks, FoW, Karakas, tutors, shardless, etc. all make plenty of sense at their new rarity for value or limited concerns--to me anyway). Even mom is pretty busted in limited. However, I just don't get this one. It is a pretty niche card, with middling value, that really doesn't do much in limited. Where is the justification?
OK, a couple of day 2 showings at a GP is enough to make me try the deck again. Has anyone gotten any mileage out of trying to build a manabase to support victim of night?. I just hate that GftT is so poor against affinity (although it is great against spellskite decks). Also, does the Calcano list just fold to robots?
You can. Make sure that your Utility one-off is a Sunken Ruins.
I also think that the Calcano list is probably not that good versus Affinity. The Mtgprice list seems better.
Yeah, I tend to agree with mtgprice that 3 AV is more appropriate than 4, and I like his sideboard better for the most part. However, I've always wanted some lifegain MD, and I'm willing to try Calcano's addition of batterskull.
OK, a couple of day 2 showings at a GP is enough to make me try the deck again. Has anyone gotten any mileage out of trying to build a manabase to support victim of night?. I just hate that GftT is so poor against affinity (although it is great against spellskite decks). Also, does the Calcano list just fold to robots?
I hate buyouts, seems so predatory towards the community.
Yes, the community lost so much because Steamflogger Boss got bought out.
Agreed. Even if contraptions and riggers become a thing, the circumstances where a 4cc lord of this caliber is playable would be exceptional. I mean, he's worse than most goblin lords at pumping small dudes, so that means you either A) need to be able to get a lot of riggers very cheaply (i.e. at a better rate than goblins) or B) assembling two contraptions instead of one is such a big game that you'll play a bolt-able 4cc dude. I just don't see it happening.
I suppose I'm disappointed that WotC couldn't figure out a way to make modern pro tours profitable. Sure, modern doesn't fit with what they have designed the pro tours for, but it certainly seemed to generate a lot of excitement. In this way, rather than saying "this doesn't fit what we want the pro tour to be" they should have said "how can we capitalize on this excitement." It all just seems so rigid; this is a failing on their ability to meet the desires of their customers.
The current thinking seems to be "wonky draft sets with a small group of chase cards".
I also want to point out that this is exactly the philosophy that WotC seems to have adopted in recent years. Limited (as fun as it is) used to be an alternate mode of the game. Sure, it influenced how sets were constructed, but I think it felt less heavy-handed than it has over the last few years. Recently, it feels like limited has been more of an excuse to create mostly underpowered sets with a few high-end rares and mythics.
Honestly, when I first posted this, I thought we still might have some zombie support cards coming down the pipe--to make a potential bad-but-FNM-playable style deck around the tribe. I mean the rares are pretty solid, but there really aren't any 1 or 2cc standard zombies to make such a thing work (vampires got all the fun).
Either way, he's held at 5 to 6ish, so there is some demand for the executioner.
As others have mentioned, it is pretty difficult to hit a particularly subjective mark. However, I (and at least a few others) feel like the original Rav and TSP blocks may have been the high-water mark for the game (in some important ways). On the other hand, I can comfortably say that M10, original Zendikar block, original Innistrad block, and RtR (just the first set) were all "good" in some way or the other. Or at least I enjoyed what they did on most levels and liked getting product from those sets for a variety of reasons.
For me, being "good" results from a mix of doing interesting things, an appreciation of theme, and having a power-level that doesn't make me feel like I'm flushing money down a toilet.
I mean, sure it is slow, but it is repeatable card advantage. It gets pretty nifty in longer games--which is why it still has a place in some commander lists. I have actually tutored for it in my venerable Dakkon Blackblade control list.
Man...all of these discussions make me feel like we are a LONG way from a consensus list. Lots of cryptics, a few cryptics, no cryptics, scions or no, is river of tears good, is darkslick shores good, should we run white, swords or no, are we aggro-control or control-aggro? I'm guessing this is what happens when we have no results for a while.
Honestly, I feel like focusing on keeping the fae element relevant--if I just end up running lots of snaps and supreme verdict and 4-of with cryptic, I might as well just cut the fae out all together. At a certain point they start to seem like the weakest link. Their either the special sauce or we should drop them altogether. It's not like other control decks don't benefit from ancestral vision. This, to me, means that a central question for the upcoming meta is where is fae better than a more control focused list? Where is it better than something more tempo oriented (like delver)? What are the changes to shore up given match-ups?
Probably there is some merit to different subtypes of the deck, rather than one all-encompassing best list. However, I feel like there is a lot of contradictory information being given, with very little nuance. Part of this is likely due to a lot of new people jumping into the thread (myself included).
Dash Hopes is still in because I haven’t actually drawn it yet, and therefore cannot assess its efficacy.
I know you mentioned this earlier, but man, dash hopes is a really, really bad card. Punisher effects and all that. But no really, it never stops anything game-breaking and it never deals five damage for the win.
I saw this on tcg player articles this morning. Adam's new list. Thought?
3 Mistbind Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
Creatures [10]
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Bitterblossom
3 Cryptic Command
4 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Mana Leak
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Thoughtseize
Spells [25]
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Secluded Glen
1 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
Lands [25]
Deck Total [60]
I think it is heavy on discard and short on counter/kill. I like the swords of feast and famine, but I would split them to sofaf with either Solas or Sofai.
It seems pretty straightforward. I think he has plenty counterspells (SSS, 3 Cryptics, and 3 Mana leaks), but 4 removal seems a bit low. I've liked five discard so far--how much do you think is ideal?
Edit: Haha! I think I understood that wrong? You mean casting Disenchant on Night of Souls' Betrayal. Right? I thought of that you would change one Disenchant from the side to that.
Hah! Yeah, NoSB would be pretty cool tech in our sideboards!
Really though, it is something that has been in Jund sideboards for a while now and, since it also shuts down the thoptersword combo, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And boy, does it suck against us. In the UB lists, you basically have to prevent it from entering play or bounce it with cryptic and hope to counter it. Neither is a reliable option.
Sadly I can't test my list this week, but I'll be back playing faeries next week and gone post my results then.
While I was advocating esper for a while and I'm still sure it was the only working list during the eldrazi meta, with
av the old ub shell might actually be better. Still I'm gone try this list for a while:
While I'm deeply in love with tasigur I might change them for 2verdicts main, not sure about that yet, would need to rework my delve package with cut/logic knot then
I like where you are going with some of these changes. Specifically Sorin, Solemn Visitor seems fairly solid. Moreover, having white helps with both removal and sideboard (disenchant for Night of Souls' Betrayal seems...good). I'm going to push you a bit on the snaps though--from my experience with Teachings and Jeskai control, I feel like 8 1cc snapcaster targets is pretty slim--he's going to be a bit slow in this list.
OK, scry is nice, but, late game that is all it is likely to give you. I'd bet clash has more play at both the early and late game much of the time. Also, don't discount a counterspell on turn two--that one turn difference is HUGE.
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Yavimaya Coast
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Crumbling Vestige
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Forest
Creatures (17)
4 Sylvan Advocate
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Reality Smasher
1 Hangarback Walker
1 Bearer of Silence
3 Duress
2 Transgress the mind
3 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
1 Languish
Instants (6)
3 Ultimate Price
2 Grasp of Darkness
1 To the slaughter
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Clip Wings
2 Languish
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Duress
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Warping Wail
2 Pulse of Murasa
3 Dead Weight
I decided that hitting heavy black was more important than anything else the deck was doing, which forced me to downplay green. Notably, crumbling vestige has overperformed in fixing for this deck, to the point that I went up to the full four, after testing on two and three. I also tried deathcap cultivator but ended up no liking him as much as I thought. Importantly, getting delirium with this deck has been…challenging. If you don’t see evolving wilds, he is usually a 2/1 elf in a world of 2/3s. Either way, I’m usually using discard and removal the first few turns anyway, so getting a seer or Kalitas a turn early rarely pays off much.
I also haven’t liked the gitrog monster. The lack of evasion means that he is chumped for days against a number of token producers. You could say the same about seer and Kalitas, but seer’s immediate impact is great and kalitas is a value engine, regardless of what they are doing.
Other than those differences, I’m largely on the same plan as the OP. Right now, I have about two flexible slots, in terms of hangarback and bearer of silence—both of which have been good but not great at times. I’ve considered going up on the number of Smashers, but I kind of like where my curve is now.
I also need suggestions for the sideboard. Clip wings is mostly for westvale abbey, as I have few other outs. Moreover, someone at my shop is playing fevered visions and, in general, I’d kind of like to work in a way to run some enchantment/artifact removal. Any suggestions about what is the best option currently? Both root out and conclave naturalists seem OK but a bit clunky.
Either way, your deck is a grindy control deck--I'd run 25 lands. You are going to be behind much of the time, so you need to hit engulf on turn four as often as possible. Also, Jace's Sanctum isn't really going to do much for you--avoid it. I would also consider some other things at less than 3cc--right now, you do nothing 'till turn three much of the time, unless you hit TiTi. Maybe drop some counters for Clash of Wills as it can go fire off on turn 2, to counter someone on curve.
Yeah, I tend to agree with mtgprice that 3 AV is more appropriate than 4, and I like his sideboard better for the most part. However, I've always wanted some lifegain MD, and I'm willing to try Calcano's addition of batterskull.
For removal, I was thinking something like: 1 Dismember, 1 victim of night, 2 smother, 1 murderous cut MD. I'm inclined to keep disfigure in the side.
Agreed. Even if contraptions and riggers become a thing, the circumstances where a 4cc lord of this caliber is playable would be exceptional. I mean, he's worse than most goblin lords at pumping small dudes, so that means you either A) need to be able to get a lot of riggers very cheaply (i.e. at a better rate than goblins) or B) assembling two contraptions instead of one is such a big game that you'll play a bolt-able 4cc dude. I just don't see it happening.
I also want to point out that this is exactly the philosophy that WotC seems to have adopted in recent years. Limited (as fun as it is) used to be an alternate mode of the game. Sure, it influenced how sets were constructed, but I think it felt less heavy-handed than it has over the last few years. Recently, it feels like limited has been more of an excuse to create mostly underpowered sets with a few high-end rares and mythics.
Either way, he's held at 5 to 6ish, so there is some demand for the executioner.
For me, being "good" results from a mix of doing interesting things, an appreciation of theme, and having a power-level that doesn't make me feel like I'm flushing money down a toilet.
Honestly, I feel like focusing on keeping the fae element relevant--if I just end up running lots of snaps and supreme verdict and 4-of with cryptic, I might as well just cut the fae out all together. At a certain point they start to seem like the weakest link. Their either the special sauce or we should drop them altogether. It's not like other control decks don't benefit from ancestral vision. This, to me, means that a central question for the upcoming meta is where is fae better than a more control focused list? Where is it better than something more tempo oriented (like delver)? What are the changes to shore up given match-ups?
Probably there is some merit to different subtypes of the deck, rather than one all-encompassing best list. However, I feel like there is a lot of contradictory information being given, with very little nuance. Part of this is likely due to a lot of new people jumping into the thread (myself included).
I know you mentioned this earlier, but man, dash hopes is a really, really bad card. Punisher effects and all that. But no really, it never stops anything game-breaking and it never deals five damage for the win.
It seems pretty straightforward. I think he has plenty counterspells (SSS, 3 Cryptics, and 3 Mana leaks), but 4 removal seems a bit low. I've liked five discard so far--how much do you think is ideal?
Has anyone tried the equipment angle yet?
Hah! Yeah, NoSB would be pretty cool tech in our sideboards!
Really though, it is something that has been in Jund sideboards for a while now and, since it also shuts down the thoptersword combo, it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And boy, does it suck against us. In the UB lists, you basically have to prevent it from entering play or bounce it with cryptic and hope to counter it. Neither is a reliable option.
I like where you are going with some of these changes. Specifically Sorin, Solemn Visitor seems fairly solid. Moreover, having white helps with both removal and sideboard (disenchant for Night of Souls' Betrayal seems...good). I'm going to push you a bit on the snaps though--from my experience with Teachings and Jeskai control, I feel like 8 1cc snapcaster targets is pretty slim--he's going to be a bit slow in this list.