The secondary market is important, but wizards also needs to produce products that target how people are interested in buying their cards. Booster pack lottery is only good for the first few weeks of a new set release, so they do need a strategy to print high demand cards in a way that isn't a lottery to players as the current preference is to purchase singles post pre-release and the first month. Also, they do need to cap the price on products they release to something more players can afford on short notice. As I said before, the price of a booster box at 100 usd is about the cap most players tend to go. Also they really need to cater more to Modern players sensibilities when they release Modern Masters sets. They can at the very least toss in enough card protectors to protect all the high value rares and mythics they pull per box when they pull them and a box to hold the cards in. Throw a collectors spin down that is more than a d20 would also be a good help. Finally, they need to print more lands in the boxes for things like fetches, shocks, and filter lands and not print those as part of the main set. Save those spaces in the rare and mythic slots for other cards that need reprints as there's more than enough room for mana fixing in draft at the uncommon and common slots. Getting a rare or mythic land tends to be a dead pick for drafting so they might as well put more bombs and good stuff in there.
They use to do just as you say and limited was terrible. There was 1 or 2 decks heads and shoulders above the rest. for the other 6 they might as well have just packed up and went home. Limited now isnt that bad. There are 3-5 decks that can win the event 1 or 2 players that missed what they were trying to do.
Having a decent limited environment is just as important as having a decent Standard environment, maybe more so in the terms of selling packs. If people dont want to draft, that effects the secondary market and the price of Standard.
And just no, Wotc needs to cater to Standard and Limited players. Wotc should not cater to older formats that dont sell packs, or sell packs as well as Limited and Standard.
According to market watch and the movement of non-standard cards, yes they do. Oh sweet mercy do they need to.
You are confusing single prices with pack and box sales. If they focus on Modern reprints in Standard legal sets, Standard becomes Modern lite. The gap would close over time and there wouldnt be a need for Modern and Standard. I would thing Wotc would pull the plug on Modern before they would Standard.
Modern simply can not be the number one format. It should be third in line at the best. Having it number 2 is hurting a lot of things. Mainly people like you who want them to focus on Modern more. That is bad for the game as a whole in the bigger picture.
Wotc should continue focusing on Standard and limited and let the cards land where they do in the older formats and use the ban list to keep those older formats in check.
The secondary market is important, but wizards also needs to produce products that target how people are interested in buying their cards. Booster pack lottery is only good for the first few weeks of a new set release, so they do need a strategy to print high demand cards in a way that isn't a lottery to players as the current preference is to purchase singles post pre-release and the first month. Also, they do need to cap the price on products they release to something more players can afford on short notice. As I said before, the price of a booster box at 100 usd is about the cap most players tend to go. Also they really need to cater more to Modern players sensibilities when they release Modern Masters sets. They can at the very least toss in enough card protectors to protect all the high value rares and mythics they pull per box when they pull them and a box to hold the cards in. Throw a collectors spin down that is more than a d20 would also be a good help. Finally, they need to print more lands in the boxes for things like fetches, shocks, and filter lands and not print those as part of the main set. Save those spaces in the rare and mythic slots for other cards that need reprints as there's more than enough room for mana fixing in draft at the uncommon and common slots. Getting a rare or mythic land tends to be a dead pick for drafting so they might as well put more bombs and good stuff in there.
They use to do just as you say and limited was terrible. There was 1 or 2 decks heads and shoulders above the rest. for the other 6 they might as well have just packed up and went home. Limited now isnt that bad. There are 3-5 decks that can win the event 1 or 2 players that missed what they were trying to do.
Having a decent limited environment is just as important as having a decent Standard environment, maybe more so in the terms of selling packs. If people dont want to draft, that effects the secondary market and the price of Standard.
And just no, Wotc needs to cater to Standard and Limited players. Wotc should not cater to older formats that dont sell packs, or sell packs as well as Limited and Standard.
Like I said, I dont know how much you were playing or where, but I saw deck tosses, fist fights, table flips, all over the deck their opponent was playing. People were complaining. At big events too. The events Wotc was paying attention to. When the Wotc rep comes around and 5 out or 8 of the guys at the table are all complaining about different interactions and different decks, yes it was that bad. Enough must have been complaining that Wotc took it to heart because they have gone away from all hose decks people were complaining about.
That all said, there is a clear division in the player base. There are those that wish for a more spell based game like it was in the late 90s. and there sre those who are enjoying the mid range creature decks of now. There really is no way to please both sides. shy away from the creatures and one side gets upset, keep away from the spells and the other side is upset.
I never saw a single instance of any of that. But any that behaved in such a manner are immature children and shouldnt be catered to. Temper tantrums are for 3 year olds.
So when you are playing in a PTQ or GPQ and the Wotc rep comes around asking specific questions and those guys start complaining about interactions and certain decks or cards, they were being childish? Or are you talking about the guys playing for (at the time) large amounts of money, going at fista cuffs over a card or a play? If you are talking about those who got violent, I agree. If you are talking about those that complained to the Wotc rep, not so much.
Gamers in general complain. It doesnt matter if its cards, board, rpg (D&D type games) or video. People want to do what they want to do and dont care about anyone else. Doesnt matter the game.
It was the best because of the variety and options and answers it offered. Thats not something we see in set design anymore. THere were close to 30 different decks being played. No one was complaining that there were 5 or 6 different counterspells being used in the format. No one was complaining about Wrath of God. No one was complaining about the 3 land destruction spells being used either. There were a number of playable burn spells. There were a variety of removal spells. Thats the stuff that makes for a healthy format. The only real negative was the overabundance of Jitte. But even that was kept in check
Anyone who says there was no complaining back then was not playing much. I have been playing since 94 and there are always complaints about the game. The reason it seems like there was less complaining back then is the lack of the internet. People complained about control, people complained about land destruction, people complaining about prison decks. That is why Wotc has gone away form those type strategies, because players complained about them.
Lack of Internet? This site alone was 100x more busy then compared to now. NWO players started complaining, not older players. I was playing a ton in 2006....probably the most magic Ive played in my life (and Ive been playing as long as you have). Lets not play the "literal" game. "no one was complaining" wasnt meant to be taken as not a single person, but they were very much in the minority. It wasnt until Generation Participation Trophy started flooding the tables that a shift occurred (and were/are a huge detriment to the game)
Like I said, I dont know how much you were playing or where, but I saw deck tosses, fist fights, table flips, all over the deck their opponent was playing. People were complaining. At big events too. The events Wotc was paying attention to. When the Wotc rep comes around and 5 out or 8 of the guys at the table are all complaining about different interactions and different decks, yes it was that bad. Enough must have been complaining that Wotc took it to heart because they have gone away from all hose decks people were complaining about.
That all said, there is a clear division in the player base. There are those that wish for a more spell based game like it was in the late 90s. and there sre those who are enjoying the mid range creature decks of now. There really is no way to please both sides. shy away from the creatures and one side gets upset, keep away from the spells and the other side is upset.
Quote from Colt47 »
I'm actually surprised how Orwellian the evolution of Magic has been. It's like the feedback wizards followed has lead to one of the most stagnant, me-to types of gaming scenarios seen in a major TCG in a long time. I'm hoping this isn't going to be the future going forward because there is only so long this can keep going on for before even commander and casual formats start getting hit.
Its a hobby with big money in it from the playing pieces themselves to the pay outs from tournaments. It really isnt too surprising to see the way the game has progressed. Make all the playing pieces worthless and remove the monetary prizes from doing well in tournaments and watch the game go back to the more casual wide open game some seem to desire. Killing the secondary alone would push thousands of players away. Remove the prize from events.. the possibilities are endless.
States 2006 there was no 'money' on the line, just product and a plaque. Today events are about payouts (money or store credit).
It was the best because of the variety and options and answers it offered. Thats not something we see in set design anymore. THere were close to 30 different decks being played. No one was complaining that there were 5 or 6 different counterspells being used in the format. No one was complaining about Wrath of God. No one was complaining about the 3 land destruction spells being used either. There were a number of playable burn spells. There were a variety of removal spells. Thats the stuff that makes for a healthy format. The only real negative was the overabundance of Jitte. But even that was kept in check
Anyone who says there was no complaining back then was not playing much. I have been playing since 94 and there are always complaints about the game. The reason it seems like there was less complaining back then is the lack of the internet. People complained about control, people complained about land destruction, people complaining about prison decks. That is why Wotc has gone away form those type strategies, because players complained about them.
I'm kind of surprised the subtle saltiness that is building up in the mtg community as of late has become so prolific even outside this forum. There has been a number of people I've talked with who don't even come to this forum that seem to share the same dislike of masters sets and the way wizards is handling reprints. Normally this stuff is kind of contained to the internet.
I would love to know where you are seeing this. All 3 of the LGS I frequent sold out of MM17 by the second weekend it was out. I checks a few other LGS and there was very little product still on the shelves. According to the owners, players LOVE masters sets and buy it up faster then any other sets.
The game used to be far more diverse, explosive, and interesting. Dark Ritual, Exhume, Memory Jar, Turnabout, Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning bolt were built to be high impact cards that could swing the tide of the game when used with creatures and other spells. Those certainly would break the game as it is now, but that's only because they tried to turn this game into an over complicated mid-ranged affair with walkers.
The time you talk about in Magic I hated and is why I learned to draft better. I couldnt stand constructed formats back then. I personally dont like broken Magic and love the mid range fest its become. Even though I dislike Planeswalkers.
This is a perfect example of Wotc can not please everyone. No matter which way Wotc goes a portion of the player base is going to be unhappy.
No it is not, and no where did I say it was. Price memory comes form a large portion of the player base buying into a card at a price (for what ever the reason) and refusing to sell for under that price. In turn lowering the supply of said card. Also art comes into play and there are players that only play cards from their original printing. Hence why older printing with original art usually carry a higher price then the newer cards with different art.
Price memory is a real thing. You can believe it or not, but it is.
Wotc is doing it right. Repinting cards to get more into circulation yet not effecting the price much.
Price memory is a real thing, just because some dont wish to actually sit down and learn the ins and outs of the market and just complain it doesnt work as they wish doesnt make an aspect of the market imaginary.
Price memory is real. There is much more then how many copies there are and how many want them. There are how many copies certain entities own and what they bought into those cards for and whay is the lowest they will go selling them. Or in other words the floor. People are selling those cards at those prices because they also control the supply to an extent. If I own 100 copies of Goyf, and I bought in at say $90. I dont care if Goyf goes under $90 because I am not selling under $90. The price will come back to me over time. Especially with high priced cards such as Goyf.
Also, if you go back and look the last time Bolt was in Standard, it was printed as an uncommon and even with all the previous printings, bolt was around $5 a pop eve with the reprint. There are players that wont have them for whatever reason and there will be demand. As I said, the more formats a card is played, the higher the price.
Supply and demand is just a part of the market. But the Magic market isnt a true supply and demand type market. There are other factors that come into why cards prices are what they are.
No, it's...really more just the number of cards. Lightning bolt is one of the most if not the most often used non-land card in the game, yet it's only around $1-$2 because there's just so darn many of them. In a much more real and practical sense, price memory is non-existent.
You are using a card that was reprinted many times (as a common) prior to it climbing to a double digit priced card. At one time bolt was at most a $3-$5 card when it was being played in Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage. If bolt became Standard legal again it would jump in price to probably about a $5 card. But you are right, its been reprinted like 5 or 6 times in Standard legal sets. Most of those sets being large print runs and the card being a common.
Now compare that to a card printed only once in a Standard legal set, as a rare, and then a few times in supplementary sets (read small print runs) as a mythic. first being a rare or mythic automatically makes the card printed less then a common. Add in the print run and rarity shift of the rare to mythic card.
FOW went from an uncommon to a mythic. The reprints did very little to relieve any pressure of demand. Hence the price stays high.
Look at the cards the supplementary sets have effected and its mainly the commons and uncommons and fringe played rares. You see a dip in the heavy played rares and played mythics. but the prices creep back to what they were over time because of less product being opened and supply drying up.
Without new cards in the set, there is no reason for a good portion of the player base to buy a new set basically filled with reprints. (core set anyone?) Wotc needs to make sets that make players want to buy them. Not shy away from them because you already own most the cards in the set.
People dont understand the market and then are confused when it doesnt react as they think it should.
Price memory is a real thing. Many people have bought into the card at a set price. They are not going to let those cards go for less then they bought therm for. so even thought more are printed, there is a large supply of cards that have a floor price wise. The only cards that really see any play are the new print cards or the super rare masterpiece ones.
Also when a person who wanted a play set of FOW's rips one or 2 out of packs (either MMA or a masterpiece) they now want to fill out their playset increasing demand, not lessening it.
So in short, demand goes up, not down for said reprints, older pricey cards have a floor or price memory that players are not going to sell under.
If those masterpiece FOW were Standard playable, they would be more expensive. upwards of $150-$200 a card. The more formats a card is played in the more demand, the higher the price gets.
Yes, this is exactly what I was talking about: laziness and/or incompetence. The fact that they thought this level of "testing" was adequate for a game of this size and complexity is exceedingly worrying. The earliest post I can find on Saheeli/Felidar is about an hour and a half after the spoiler dump on Friday. It's fairly embarrassing to think that their entire R&D and testing staff missed something that was spotted so quickly from cards WITHIN THE SAME BLOCK. It's nice that they are making changes now, but this is only coming after multiple Standard bannings and several years of awful Standard seasons, dropped attendance, and massive confidence loss from the playerbase.
But going back to my original comment that you quoted: the FFL is a horrible place to test and their skewed echo-chamber perpetuates myths and perceptions that do not actually exist in the formats for real. You can make excuses for their terrible testing practices all you want, but it has been a pretty awful system for quite a long time. I am happy they are making changes now, but it's frustrating to know that we won't see the fruits of this change for several years.
Back when Splinter Twin slipped into Standard Wotc was still trying to test cards for all formats with Standard being the most tested. After Twin slipping through, they announced they no longer would test for anything other then Standard. After the latest slip they changed the B&R announcements to have 2 very close together. So in essence they are letting the player base decide what it too warping/over powered for the formats with the release of new sets.
I honestly wouldnt be surprised if the FFL is nothing more then them playing cards coming into Standard to see they work with what is there already and what will be coming up. When I say work, I dont mean over powered or broken interactions, I mean synergy and cards that go together.
In short the player base complained so much about a few cards slipping through they are letting the player base do the testing now. Which I dont blame them. You catch 99% and miss 1% and the player base is going to crucify the whole R&D department. Why even try any more.
Not particularly affluent, actually just the opposite. Just players who wish to play the flavor of the week.
WOTC also has a testing team either so lazy or so incompetent that they entirely missed an infinite combo discovered by players within 5 minutes of the final spoiler release. A system so bad, it led to several years of awful Standard seasons, multiple bannings that shouldn't have had to happen, and a complete overhaul of their testing processes. If that's a showcase for the formats they actually care about, I don't have a lot of faith that they actually know what's best for the game anymore.
The FFL team is made up of R&D guys that get to play a few hours a week to test. They dont get to try every interaction. Also they are doing this testing probably 3-9 months before the sets go to printing.
Huge difference between 12-20 guys testing a few hours a week to millions of players picking apart everything they do with a fine tooth comb. The hive mind is always going to find things quicker, then a small play group.
Quote from beanman1000 »
There would be a pretty good middle ground in there. Players only pick a deck and ride because the expense of the format puts a hamper on picking up multiple decks. This leads to these players picking up fewer singles at an LGS, because their deck may not gain anything from the new set, which in turn has the LGS crack less product for singles.
Sounds like LGS closing shop left and right to me. If singles sales dip for any reason, watch the LGS start to go under. If Sealed product starts to suffer, watch Wotc go for one last money grab before cutting back a lot. Your middle ground sounds like a slow death spiral to me.
I disagree players ride a deck because of expense. I see high school kids playing a different deck each week at local events. I am talking $700-$1000+ decks. Yes to some the format is expensive, but cards are selling so I would say there is a pretty good balance in the cost of the format.
You are confusing single prices with pack and box sales. If they focus on Modern reprints in Standard legal sets, Standard becomes Modern lite. The gap would close over time and there wouldnt be a need for Modern and Standard. I would thing Wotc would pull the plug on Modern before they would Standard.
Modern simply can not be the number one format. It should be third in line at the best. Having it number 2 is hurting a lot of things. Mainly people like you who want them to focus on Modern more. That is bad for the game as a whole in the bigger picture.
Wotc should continue focusing on Standard and limited and let the cards land where they do in the older formats and use the ban list to keep those older formats in check.
They use to do just as you say and limited was terrible. There was 1 or 2 decks heads and shoulders above the rest. for the other 6 they might as well have just packed up and went home. Limited now isnt that bad. There are 3-5 decks that can win the event 1 or 2 players that missed what they were trying to do.
Having a decent limited environment is just as important as having a decent Standard environment, maybe more so in the terms of selling packs. If people dont want to draft, that effects the secondary market and the price of Standard.
And just no, Wotc needs to cater to Standard and Limited players. Wotc should not cater to older formats that dont sell packs, or sell packs as well as Limited and Standard.
So when you are playing in a PTQ or GPQ and the Wotc rep comes around asking specific questions and those guys start complaining about interactions and certain decks or cards, they were being childish? Or are you talking about the guys playing for (at the time) large amounts of money, going at fista cuffs over a card or a play? If you are talking about those who got violent, I agree. If you are talking about those that complained to the Wotc rep, not so much.
Gamers in general complain. It doesnt matter if its cards, board, rpg (D&D type games) or video. People want to do what they want to do and dont care about anyone else. Doesnt matter the game.
Like I said, I dont know how much you were playing or where, but I saw deck tosses, fist fights, table flips, all over the deck their opponent was playing. People were complaining. At big events too. The events Wotc was paying attention to. When the Wotc rep comes around and 5 out or 8 of the guys at the table are all complaining about different interactions and different decks, yes it was that bad. Enough must have been complaining that Wotc took it to heart because they have gone away from all hose decks people were complaining about.
That all said, there is a clear division in the player base. There are those that wish for a more spell based game like it was in the late 90s. and there sre those who are enjoying the mid range creature decks of now. There really is no way to please both sides. shy away from the creatures and one side gets upset, keep away from the spells and the other side is upset.
Its a hobby with big money in it from the playing pieces themselves to the pay outs from tournaments. It really isnt too surprising to see the way the game has progressed. Make all the playing pieces worthless and remove the monetary prizes from doing well in tournaments and watch the game go back to the more casual wide open game some seem to desire. Killing the secondary alone would push thousands of players away. Remove the prize from events.. the possibilities are endless.
States 2006 there was no 'money' on the line, just product and a plaque. Today events are about payouts (money or store credit).
Anyone who says there was no complaining back then was not playing much. I have been playing since 94 and there are always complaints about the game. The reason it seems like there was less complaining back then is the lack of the internet. People complained about control, people complained about land destruction, people complaining about prison decks. That is why Wotc has gone away form those type strategies, because players complained about them.
I would love to know where you are seeing this. All 3 of the LGS I frequent sold out of MM17 by the second weekend it was out. I checks a few other LGS and there was very little product still on the shelves. According to the owners, players LOVE masters sets and buy it up faster then any other sets.
The time you talk about in Magic I hated and is why I learned to draft better. I couldnt stand constructed formats back then. I personally dont like broken Magic and love the mid range fest its become. Even though I dislike Planeswalkers.
This is a perfect example of Wotc can not please everyone. No matter which way Wotc goes a portion of the player base is going to be unhappy.
No it is not, and no where did I say it was. Price memory comes form a large portion of the player base buying into a card at a price (for what ever the reason) and refusing to sell for under that price. In turn lowering the supply of said card. Also art comes into play and there are players that only play cards from their original printing. Hence why older printing with original art usually carry a higher price then the newer cards with different art.
Price memory is a real thing. You can believe it or not, but it is.
Reprints are for accessibility not affordability.
Wotc is doing it right. Repinting cards to get more into circulation yet not effecting the price much.
Price memory is a real thing, just because some dont wish to actually sit down and learn the ins and outs of the market and just complain it doesnt work as they wish doesnt make an aspect of the market imaginary.
Legacy players have been asking for top to go for years. The ban wasnt out of the blue. Just took a while to get there.
Also, if you go back and look the last time Bolt was in Standard, it was printed as an uncommon and even with all the previous printings, bolt was around $5 a pop eve with the reprint. There are players that wont have them for whatever reason and there will be demand. As I said, the more formats a card is played, the higher the price.
Supply and demand is just a part of the market. But the Magic market isnt a true supply and demand type market. There are other factors that come into why cards prices are what they are.
You are using a card that was reprinted many times (as a common) prior to it climbing to a double digit priced card. At one time bolt was at most a $3-$5 card when it was being played in Standard, Extended, Legacy and Vintage. If bolt became Standard legal again it would jump in price to probably about a $5 card. But you are right, its been reprinted like 5 or 6 times in Standard legal sets. Most of those sets being large print runs and the card being a common.
Now compare that to a card printed only once in a Standard legal set, as a rare, and then a few times in supplementary sets (read small print runs) as a mythic. first being a rare or mythic automatically makes the card printed less then a common. Add in the print run and rarity shift of the rare to mythic card.
FOW went from an uncommon to a mythic. The reprints did very little to relieve any pressure of demand. Hence the price stays high.
Look at the cards the supplementary sets have effected and its mainly the commons and uncommons and fringe played rares. You see a dip in the heavy played rares and played mythics. but the prices creep back to what they were over time because of less product being opened and supply drying up.
Its really simple economics.
Price memory is a real thing. Many people have bought into the card at a set price. They are not going to let those cards go for less then they bought therm for. so even thought more are printed, there is a large supply of cards that have a floor price wise. The only cards that really see any play are the new print cards or the super rare masterpiece ones.
Also when a person who wanted a play set of FOW's rips one or 2 out of packs (either MMA or a masterpiece) they now want to fill out their playset increasing demand, not lessening it.
So in short, demand goes up, not down for said reprints, older pricey cards have a floor or price memory that players are not going to sell under.
If those masterpiece FOW were Standard playable, they would be more expensive. upwards of $150-$200 a card. The more formats a card is played in the more demand, the higher the price gets.
Back when Splinter Twin slipped into Standard Wotc was still trying to test cards for all formats with Standard being the most tested. After Twin slipping through, they announced they no longer would test for anything other then Standard. After the latest slip they changed the B&R announcements to have 2 very close together. So in essence they are letting the player base decide what it too warping/over powered for the formats with the release of new sets.
I honestly wouldnt be surprised if the FFL is nothing more then them playing cards coming into Standard to see they work with what is there already and what will be coming up. When I say work, I dont mean over powered or broken interactions, I mean synergy and cards that go together.
In short the player base complained so much about a few cards slipping through they are letting the player base do the testing now. Which I dont blame them. You catch 99% and miss 1% and the player base is going to crucify the whole R&D department. Why even try any more.
Not particularly affluent, actually just the opposite. Just players who wish to play the flavor of the week.
The FFL team is made up of R&D guys that get to play a few hours a week to test. They dont get to try every interaction. Also they are doing this testing probably 3-9 months before the sets go to printing.
Huge difference between 12-20 guys testing a few hours a week to millions of players picking apart everything they do with a fine tooth comb. The hive mind is always going to find things quicker, then a small play group.
Sounds like LGS closing shop left and right to me. If singles sales dip for any reason, watch the LGS start to go under. If Sealed product starts to suffer, watch Wotc go for one last money grab before cutting back a lot. Your middle ground sounds like a slow death spiral to me.
I disagree players ride a deck because of expense. I see high school kids playing a different deck each week at local events. I am talking $700-$1000+ decks. Yes to some the format is expensive, but cards are selling so I would say there is a pretty good balance in the cost of the format.