MTG Salvation

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Quote from Colt47 »

Seriously, the only thing printing land sets in masters boxes would do at worst, is move the value of standard cards from the mana base more towards the non-land spells.

Outside of mono colored decks, mana base has always been the most expensive part of multicolored decks.

Why must you continue to try and change something that has been working for 20+ years?

You are only thinking of the players in this thinking. You are not thinking of the loss the lGS takes on the singles he sells. You are not thinking about the monetary loss the players collection takes. Do you think people taking these losses are going to be happy about it? If your answer is you dont care, then why should those people care you cant afford to play the deck you wish to?

Quote from The Decepticon »

It was the best because of the variety and options and answers it offered. Thats not something we see in set design anymore. THere were close to 30 different decks being played. No one was complaining that there were 5 or 6 different counterspells being used in the format. No one was complaining about Wrath of God. No one was complaining about the 3 land destruction spells being used either. There were a number of playable burn spells. There were a variety of removal spells. Thats the stuff that makes for a healthy format. The only real negative was the overabundance of Jitte. But even that was kept in check

Anyone who says there was no complaining back then was not playing much. I have been playing since 94 and there are always complaints about the game. The reason it seems like there was less complaining back then is the lack of the internet. People complained about control, people complained about land destruction, people complaining about prison decks. That is why Wotc has gone away form those type strategies, because players complained about them.

Quote from Varyag »

They did nuke Legacy totally out of the blue in the midst of the Standard fiasco though.

Legacy players have been asking for top to go for years. The ban wasnt out of the blue. Just took a while to get there.

Price memory is real. There is much more then how many copies there are and how many want them. There are how many copies certain entities own and what they bought into those cards for and whay is the lowest they will go selling them. Or in other words the floor. People are selling those cards at those prices because they also control the supply to an extent. If I own 100 copies of Goyf, and I bought in at say $90. I dont care if Goyf goes under $90 because I am not selling under $90. The price will come back to me over time. Especially with high priced cards such as Goyf.

Also, if you go back and look the last time Bolt was in Standard, it was printed as an uncommon and even with all the previous printings, bolt was around $5 a pop eve with the reprint. There are players that wont have them for whatever reason and there will be demand. As I said, the more formats a card is played, the higher the price.

Supply and demand is just a part of the market. But the Magic market isnt a true supply and demand type market. There are other factors that come into why cards prices are what they are.

Quote from cfusionpm »

This just highlights how awful and useless the FFL "testing" is.

Or how much difference there is between what Wotc wants out of the format and what the player base wants.


Wotc wants players to buy packs and boxes, LGS want players to buy singles, most players only want to buy into one deck and ride that baby for years.

Something has to give...

Kind of jumping the cycle a bit on claiming prices are down. The prices from MM17 rebounded faster then the previous MM sets (meaning hit bottom and headed back up). Usually takes 6 months to see those high end cards get back to their old pricing. We are 2 months in, maybe a bit more? Lets see what the charts look like at the end of summer to see if its a true drop in prices.

Quote from osieorb18 »

The thing about stereotypes is that while they have some foundation in truth, they can also paint a not entirely accurate picture. You think enfranchised Legacy and Vintage players aren't actively buying cards from new sets? They'll buy boxes and singles, maybe not to the degree of a Standard player, but still to a comparable degree to a Modern player. I think I can fairly say that the average Vintage/Legacy player plays Limited now and again. Occasionally, you will see enfranchised Legacy and Vintage players who don't buy product for personal finance reasons (They had enough money to get into the format, but don't have the cash to play continuously.) On a tangential point, that is where a conundrum comes up. Most people don't have the money to maintain playing a format like Standard or Modern, or to get into Vintage or Legacy. If Modern doesn't want to price out both new players and a section of enfranchised players, lowering either maintenance cost or barrier to entry is the way to go, and barrier to entry is the one of those two which is better for Wizards to lower.

Okay, fair enough. I will say they are not buying product in an amount that will keep the game in business. Unlike Standard and limited do that keep the game continuing.

Lowering the money barrier, means lowering the price of cards, which will hurt LGS and players lose places to play. Yes some LGS will survive, but to what extent? Will the likes of SCG and TCG have the ability to continue supporting the game at the levels they have been for years now? Probably not.

Its a catch 22 situation. I think Wotc has been doing a good job of slowly lowering prices of staples in Modern through the printing of Masters sets along with other supplemental products. Maybe not fast enough for some, but they are working to appease both the LGS and the player base. 2 groups with in the game that actually need very different things from the game, almost opposite things that fight against each other.

Quote from Colt47 »

Also I think modern was actually started by players at least a year and a half prior to its introduction to the pro-tour. So wizards didn't create modern.

Nope, the player created format was Overextended which was a very different format then Modern. Some liked Overextended more, others didnt. I was not a fan of Overextended. Different cut off for sets. Much higher power level, much closer to Legacy lite then Modern is, something I dont believe Modern should be.

Quote from Cainsson »

Print more.

They use to and it didnt work for Wotc, the LGS or the player base. Some of the high print run sets are some of the lowest selling sets (Timespiral and Lorwyn blocks).

I disagree that this set up caters to the bottom feeders. If it did we wouldnt be seeing more and more LGS open.

Selling sealed product is not where the money is for the LGS. Also no matter what the LGS is selling the product for, they are still making money.

Quote from osieorb »

Umm... what? The point was to replace Extended... As for heavily invested players, the heavily invested players before Modern WERE the Legacy/Vintage players. And most of those players still play Legacy/Vintage. The upkeep costs on Legacy and Vintage are significantly less than Modern or Standard. Decks in Modern can go from Tier 1 to below Tier 2 in a comparable amount of time to Standard; many enfranchised players have better ways to spend their money than on that. That's why there's a low overlap between Legacy/Vintage players and Standard players.

This is why Wotc doesnt like Legacy and Vintage. The players rarely buy newer cards. If Wotc had to rely on those older format players to keep in business, the game would have died a long time ago.

Quote from thecasualoblivion »

Modern wasn't intended to be an accessible alternative to Standard, but it happened anyway. I think the popularity of Modern is hurting Standard, in combination of course with how lackluster Standard has been lately. I also think that WotC isn't supporting Modern with card printings enough, given its popularity and the singles market is proportionately distorted.

Standard can not be high level, an amazing format every season. It never has and never can be. If it was the power level of Standard would be higher then any other format there is.

How many Masters set do you think they need to print before Wotc is supporting Modern? They support Modern just fine for those playing the format.

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Quote from cfusionpm »

There's also TONS of fear and uncertainty in Modern, likely reducing the desire for new players to buy in or for current players to build new decks. Because Modern has been in more or less chaos for a year and a half, every B&R update is a hold-your-breath moment. And with the lack of timely events from which to generate solid pictures of the format, we have to rely on things like SCG Classics and MTGO Leagues to figure out what's probably going to be banned next.

The downward trending prices are probably a combination of a people gravitating towards cheaper decks whenever possible, people not wanting to invest heavily in new decks, an unknown feel to the field, and a general uncertainty with regards to investing in staples for the most ban-happy format in Magic.

gee, what happened approximately a year and a half ago?

Please stop lacing non-Twin related topics with such thinly veiled bias. There's no more fear or uncertainty about Modern as there is about any other format, or the game as a whole.

If prices are down and if they stay down, it's simply because the reprinting effect has stopped bringing players into Modern from other formats and Masters sets are basically just mini Chronicles sets now.

Quote from Varyag »

The tanking of modern prices.

On the right, summer 2016, on the left, today May 7 2017. Total drop in format value from nearly 4000$ to 1200$.

Goldfish data, "fished" out with the Wayback machine.

The data you presented is incomplete. On the date you pulled, the modern staples section contained 236 cards; the current version is only 61. The new list is missing entire decks like Tron, Burn, and Scapeshift/Titan.

Quote from bocephus »

Serious question..

I have been playing and not following along so much with articles and videos about Modern. I know its been a few years but has Aaron Foresythe come out and said they (being those in charge of the ban list) have changed their thinking toward JTMS, SFM, or GSZ? I mean he said they have a grave in Modern and if you want to play those cards there are other formats to play them. Has he (or anyone else form Wotc) come out and made any comments to think their thinking has changed?

Wizards of the Coast tends to be rather tight-lipped about such things. The only reason we even got the JTMS/SFM/GSZ quote from him was because someone was able to ask him personally about it. There was this comment from 2 months ago regarding Jace from Aaron Forsythe, though:
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/833870519862636544

I'm pretty excited for the set, went and bought a fat pack and booster box today. Just seems like there's a lot of good stuff for Standard, Commander and even a few things for Modern. Not many meta defining cards but a lot of solid cards that will help spawn some new decks and make some current ones a little better.

I also love the flavor and story so far. Limited is insanely good as well.

You are correct on all points Casual, but I'm not saying WHY Modern is the best right now, I'm simply saying it is. Is that good for the game? Probably not! lol

xenob8: Where are you watching Legacy and Vintage? They have a lot less screen time than Modern, and thats saying something since Modern gets little as it is these days.

Modern is more accessible than Legacy and Vintage (I would think?) and less so than Standard. Thats a fair statement.
Modern is more diverse, than Standard. Thats a fair statement.
Modern is less expensive than Legacy and Vintage, while being more expensive on a one time basis, than Standard. Thats a fair statement.

Some (colt?) may not LIKE Modern play, but that does not make it bad, or inferior, it simply is not their preference.

All I ask, is that people please at least make an effort to approach from a place of logic, and factual statements, instead of simply telling lies.

No, it is format bashing. The only consistent stance you take, is that its too expensive for you. If you have an issue with Wizards, and their Marketting, then discuss that. Do not claim that the meta is stale, that other decks cannot make inroads, that innovation does not take place, or that Standard cannot have cards make an impact, when all of those statements are patently false, to the point of being format bashing, or straight up lies.

thecasualoblivion: Your opinion, is that Standard should be the premiere format. Thats a nice opinion to have. It does not change the fact that if you want varied, and interesting game play, you will watch Modern, before you watch Standard.

My mind boggles at your posts Colt. It's like you don't even play the format, and I am dismayed you do not get infractions for Format Bashing.

If you got in on a deck when it was cheap, is it still pay to win? If I've been sitting on Deathsshadow for years, is that stale?

Ever consider it's you that has the faulty perceptions of a format that unless I'm crazy even pros have trouble complaining about now?

Modern is the premiere format in Magic right now, by interest, by views, and by Meta.

I'd love to see factual arguments that refute that statement.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

I know this is off-topic, but it's nice to see the destruction of a whole archetype in Magic with the Legacy banning of Sensei's Divining Top. Legacy was the only format in which you could run Control and be very successful. Now it's Combo, Tempo, and Prison in Legacy and what...Aggro and Midrange in Modern. Terrible.

Well they destroyed Twin in Modern, so I guess it makes sense.

Twin was never a control deck. Its first iteration was a pure combo deck and it turned into tempo-combo. Just running cards that use the word "counter" doesn't make something a control deck.

I played in the prerelease yesterday and this is one of the better limited formats in quite some time I think. Great abilities.
Besides limited I must admit I don't really feel for this set, as flavor goes I definitely like the more original ideas then just copying an existing world.