I noticed that the modern prices are kind of spiking right now, after a initial decrease in price due to modern masters. Will this trend ever revert soon enough?
I tried to tell people that the player base and especially those who buy and sell heavy amounts of cards had caught on to the patterns after Masters sets come out and with the latest Masters set the cycle would be shorter. I doubt you will see a revert unless there is another reprinting of the cards you wish to get. We more or less learned Wotc wont put fetches back into Standard. So fetches are going to continue to climb. Everything else played, even fringe, is going to continue to climb in price.
Even by trying to buy singles, no one seems to want to get rid of cards anymore.
I have found they are afraid that if they sell/trade today, the card can jump another $3-$5 in the next 24-48 hours. They dont want to miss out on that profit, trade leverage.
That makes sense... Anyway, why does wizzards print such small amounts of the set? Why is the supply so lo that boosters only last a month in stores?
And why won't wizzards print more fetches in standard? It's not like they're overpowered or something.
You have to remember every card in the Masters sets are reprints. There are already a good number of them in circulation. There is no need to saturate the market with the cards and kill the market. The secondary market keeps thousands of gaming stores in business yearly.
As to fetches, 1) they add shuffling to the game, and a lot of it, drawing out matches and events. 2) fetches allow for a more greed mana base. When fetches are in a format you see 3 or more colored decks. When you can play that many colors in a deck, the format devolves to decks that are shoved full of the best cards spread across the colors they wish to run. So fetches are 'bad' for Standard, and fine for older formats. When I say 'bad', I am talking in the eyes of Wotc.
Its the first set in a while (RTR block was the last time I actually enjoyed a set) that I have enjoyed and have looked forward to opening. For limited and for brewing.
Most expensive cards of the format (Modern) in the best draft format ever in the game, and you think you can start a boycott? This is laughable at best.
I know people that saved money for months just to get cases and draft as much as possible. Good luck trying to get those people to stop buying probably the best product they put out a year.
Somebody said competing without those cards was impossible, I interjected that attempting to compete without those cards is miserable.
Quote from Lilijuana »
You need the best tools (cards) to win consistently, otherwise the better and richer players would not be buying and playing those cards exclusively. Seems pretty ridiculous to suggest otherwise.
So wrong. They may be the most played cards, but they are not needed to cash out events. Knowing the meta will get you in the money.
Goyf is played in 3 decks?, Jund and Azban being the only 2 that can be considered top tier (I am considering DS as a variation of Jund). Moon in 2? maybe 3. Its played in the side of some Affinity decks but other then that in zero top tier decks. LotV is played in 2 and one isnt even T1. Tarn is played in 1 or 2 decks and neither are T1 decks. So continue to tell me how important those 4 cards are. They are not needed to be competitive. They are not needed to be in the money at any event.
The mentality you 'needed' certain cards to be competitive is another problem with the game. The art of brewing and knowing your meta is lost to the majority of the player base. There was a time in all formats if you knew your meta, you could brew to beat a good portion of that said meta and money. But people would rather let others do the testing and such and try and copy results of others.
There are only two groups of people that don't care about the high prices of magic cards: Those that flip/sell them for a financial profit, and those players who can afford them straight out of the box when they want to put together a deck. The latter crowd loves the high prices of cards b/c they know it prices out most of their competition.
Really? How many times have you been to a LGS and seen kids buying packs to rip profit? I see it every time I am at a LGS. Without that value in the packs/sets, sales drops considerably.
People who compete in a competitive hobby that has parts such as Magic does, want their parts to retain some value. I dont care if you are talking about a card game, RC racing, BMX racing, or any other hobby.
People have different opinions on everything. I have no idea where you're drawing the idea that differing views make customer input irrelevant or detrimental - they're exactly the reason companies ask for input in the first place.
Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.
Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.
Its not a job I would like to have.
People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.
Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.
So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.
Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.
Quote from thecasualoblivion »
That's a strawman. Path/Push isn't the problem. The problem is things like Tarmogoyf, Scalding Tarn, Blood Moon, and Liliana of the Veil. All four of those cards were reprinted in Modern Masters 2017, and all are still $50+ and have not gone down in price significantly since the reprint.
I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.
Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.
The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.
I've been playing Mtg since its birth and I've always played casual.
Here's what I think;
1) The game quickly degenerates when a casual group of players is joined by one or more who play anti-creature (denial) type decks and/or combo.
You need to give the casual (aggro) players more answers against combo by [re]printing more anti-combo cards at common or uncommon level. For example, Krosan Grip, etc. If the aggro casuals have/find no answer in their collection, they quit and the group falls apart. I write 'at common or uncommon', because casuals will not look for some specific outside of Standard rare to beat the combo player.
2) Print less vanilla/crap cards. I understand you need a vanilla 2/2 to explain the game to noobs, but we don't need three vanilla creatures in every set. Also: When you print crap cards, try to make them interesting chaff in some way; For example, 'Goats your opponents control get -1/-0.' Is a completely worthless ability, but it's a lot more fun than nothing. Your business model (collectible) forces you to print crap. But at least make the crap funny or versatile or weird.
3) The artwork/flavor is too immature (comic book style) and too bland (derivative). Most of the people I know who play this game are now 30+ and at least 20+. We can handle artwork and themes which are more iconic and intellectual. The first editions of this game had "iconic" art (i.e. like Tarot cards). We were the sorcerers, crunching lotuses and trading glyphs. A thing I personally hate is the way in which WOTC takes existing mythologies like the Greek or Egyptian gods, and then sticks new names on them. It feels derivative and cheap most of the time.
* What we need is an oldschool art set with King Arthur. I want to equip Excalibur and tap the Holy Grail. And I want these things to be called what they are. Not 'Barthur, the king' but King Arthur!
4) The 'world' is beginning to feel unhinged, like a cheap collage of not really connectable things. (Same is going on in D&D if you look at its art.) We need something like Warhammer has. The new planeswalkers generation, although WOTC have been pushing them for a decade now, are not interesting. They are cartoons, really. Gerrard was not popular, and neither was his story, but the idea of a group of non-superhero heroes travelling the planes and fixing things made sense. One of my favorite sets, flavorwise, remains Fallen Empires, because its flavor told a history. It felt like a place, a place with a history, instead of a creatures collection.
And here is where Wotc has created a monster and cant please every one.
I too have been playing the game since the inception of the game. I couldnt stand the old art work. It was messy and dirty. Was hard to understand what was going on in the art. The borders made them worse.
Now how is Wotc going to please both camps of art people? They cant. Thats why I have put art to the background to the game. And I much prefer todays Magic to 1997 Magic.
Fun fact, people can change their minds, especially after a few years.
Mr.Forsythe also thought Sword of the Meek would be too obnoxious in Lantern control.
I wasnt saying they cant, but after making that kind of a statement, it would seem they would make some type of retracting statement so the player base would know they were on the table. I mean other then people just wanting their pet card off the list.
Like I said, I havent been following a long so much as of late. Just enjoying the format.
I will say, GGT probably has them leaning toward the more cautious thinking then, 'hey, lets give this a try' mentality.
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
We have some very different experences, Most people I had fun with are the other way, getting beat by a rare is unfair because most powerful rares were first picked a common/uncommon likely a) were more of them and b) had alot of them around which made it more of a matter of deck builder choice. Most would rather lose to skill and deck building them some random busted rare.
The game has to cater to all kinds. I personally would rather rip a bomb in limited and know I have a chance to cash out. Then know I never got the bomb and know my chances are rather slim to cash out. Granted, Wotc has gotten better about the power of the bombs for limited reasons. Very few cards in todays Magic are, slam it on the table and you win. In other words, unbeatable cards.
Now if you want to talk constructed, I agree to an extent.
The lack in sales baffles me because I dont know of a LGS owner in my area complaining of lack of sales. All of them say they are right on track or above with the new sets. These are friends I have made over 20 some years of playing the game. They are straight with me. They tell me when sales are down, when they dont think a format will catch on, what new card game is putting pressure on Magic. So its not some Joe Blow walking into a store hes never been in and asking those questions.
ICv2, which puts out an Internal Correspondence report based on interviews with suppliers and stores, reported that a lot of people were saying that sales for Magic were down. I talked to a store owner I knew and he confirmed that sales were down in 2016 compared to 2015.
The Internal Correspondence did speculate that while revenue for sindividual tores and suppliers might be down, it might not have decreased overall due to there being more places to buy. But Hasbro's Investor Relations Remarks seems to disprove that, as it admits Magic: the Gathering revenues declined, giving the confusing excuse of it being due to the impact of "the timing of new story-lead releases."
It does seem that sales, indeed, have declined for Magic.
Yeah I frequent 3 main LGS in my area but we have about 20 LGS with in an hour or so. Of those 3 LGS, 1 said they are about equal to last years sales. They are the oldest and most established LGS, so they have a pretty loyal following. Another LGS that has been open only 4 years found sales had gone up each year or Magic. The 3rd LGS said they show a slight down turn in sales of Magic. The 3rd LGS caters to a more casual crowd. Heavy in EDH and Frontier. The only reason I stop in this store is because its like 5 minutes from the house. It was opened by a long time player in the area that I have known for 10+ years.
Sad to see over all sales are down. But I would assume the business has cycles and we are just in a down side.
I noticed that the modern prices are kind of spiking right now, after a initial decrease in price due to modern masters. Will this trend ever revert soon enough?
I tried to tell people that the player base and especially those who buy and sell heavy amounts of cards had caught on to the patterns after Masters sets come out and with the latest Masters set the cycle would be shorter. I doubt you will see a revert unless there is another reprinting of the cards you wish to get. We more or less learned Wotc wont put fetches back into Standard. So fetches are going to continue to climb. Everything else played, even fringe, is going to continue to climb in price.
Even by trying to buy singles, no one seems to want to get rid of cards anymore.
I have found they are afraid that if they sell/trade today, the card can jump another $3-$5 in the next 24-48 hours. They dont want to miss out on that profit, trade leverage.
I have been playing and not following along so much with articles and videos about Modern. I know its been a few years but has Aaron Foresythe come out and said they (being those in charge of the ban list) have changed their thinking toward JTMS, SFM, or GSZ? I mean he said they have a grave in Modern and if you want to play those cards there are other formats to play them. Has he (or anyone else form Wotc) come out and made any comments to think their thinking has changed?
Back when I first started playing, the power of a card in competitive play was not tied to rarity like it is today. If you look at winning decks from the 4th Ed/Ice Age era, they were mostly built out of commons and uncommons with a few rares sprinkled in. The original RDW was built out of garbage commons and uncommons. Ernham Djinn, one of if not the strongest beatstick there was is Uncommon. Hell, Force of Will was an Uncommon in the Alliances set.
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
This thread is based on the premise that sales are down and that the player base is not satisfied.
Which is flawed from the start.
As I have pointed out, Wotc is in a no win situation and there have always been parts of the player base upset about something in some format all the time.
Paraphrasing, Wotc could put $100 bills in packs and there would be a group of players complaining they folded them wrong.
That is how toxic the player base is for Magic.
The lack in sales baffles me because I dont know of a LGS owner in my area complaining of lack of sales. All of them say they are right on track or above with the new sets. These are friends I have made over 20 some years of playing the game. They are straight with me. They tell me when sales are down, when they dont think a format will catch on, what new card game is putting pressure on Magic. So its not some Joe Blow walking into a store hes never been in and asking those questions.
You have to remember every card in the Masters sets are reprints. There are already a good number of them in circulation. There is no need to saturate the market with the cards and kill the market. The secondary market keeps thousands of gaming stores in business yearly.
As to fetches, 1) they add shuffling to the game, and a lot of it, drawing out matches and events. 2) fetches allow for a more greed mana base. When fetches are in a format you see 3 or more colored decks. When you can play that many colors in a deck, the format devolves to decks that are shoved full of the best cards spread across the colors they wish to run. So fetches are 'bad' for Standard, and fine for older formats. When I say 'bad', I am talking in the eyes of Wotc.
I know people that saved money for months just to get cases and draft as much as possible. Good luck trying to get those people to stop buying probably the best product they put out a year.
So wrong. They may be the most played cards, but they are not needed to cash out events. Knowing the meta will get you in the money.
Goyf is played in 3 decks?, Jund and Azban being the only 2 that can be considered top tier (I am considering DS as a variation of Jund). Moon in 2? maybe 3. Its played in the side of some Affinity decks but other then that in zero top tier decks. LotV is played in 2 and one isnt even T1. Tarn is played in 1 or 2 decks and neither are T1 decks. So continue to tell me how important those 4 cards are. They are not needed to be competitive. They are not needed to be in the money at any event.
The mentality you 'needed' certain cards to be competitive is another problem with the game. The art of brewing and knowing your meta is lost to the majority of the player base. There was a time in all formats if you knew your meta, you could brew to beat a good portion of that said meta and money. But people would rather let others do the testing and such and try and copy results of others.
Really? How many times have you been to a LGS and seen kids buying packs to rip profit? I see it every time I am at a LGS. Without that value in the packs/sets, sales drops considerably.
People who compete in a competitive hobby that has parts such as Magic does, want their parts to retain some value. I dont care if you are talking about a card game, RC racing, BMX racing, or any other hobby.
Because there are multiple factions with in th eplayer base, some desires over lap, most dont.
Usually satisfied players dont complain. The only ones that complain are those upset. Wotc has to decide if those complaining will hurt the profit margin more then changing to the desires of those complaining and pissing off those enjoying at the moment.
Its not a job I would like to have.
People assume because they are upset with something, anything.. everyone else has to be too. That just isnt true.
Not everyone cares about the art work, some people dont care about lore, some people are happy about mythics, some people dont play certain formats,not all players like all formats, not everyone is up in arms over prices, not everyone is upset at the lack of some types of decks in different formats, some people are not upset blue isnt playable in Modern, some people are not upset Legacy is becoming more and more a dead format.... I can keep going.
So in short, what is 'wrong' with the game to one, is not going to be what is wrong to the next, or the next. And for every person that feels those things are 'wrong' others enjoy them.
Its a no win situation. Wotc can not please everyone.
I might agree with you if those cards were needed to be competitive in Modern. They are not. You can play green without Goyf, you can play red blue without Tarns, you can play red without Moon, and you can play black without LotV and still top tournaments.
Affordable is a slippery slope. As its been pointed out people are buying at the prices they are now. Just because you cant or wont pay, doesnt mean the game/cards are not affordable.
The instant gratification crowd is another issue with the game. Just start playing the game and cry they cant play the top deck because its so expensive. Know how it was done back in the day? You played a lower priced deck, a deck you could 'afford' and play events and save up store credit or trade winnings for the cards you need for that other deck you want to play. Yes some complained here and there, but nothing like we hear now.
And here is where Wotc has created a monster and cant please every one.
I too have been playing the game since the inception of the game. I couldnt stand the old art work. It was messy and dirty. Was hard to understand what was going on in the art. The borders made them worse.
Now how is Wotc going to please both camps of art people? They cant. Thats why I have put art to the background to the game. And I much prefer todays Magic to 1997 Magic.
Which I agree with, but it also brings up the thought process of why unban a card when a future printed card would have to make Wotc ban it again.
I wasnt saying they cant, but after making that kind of a statement, it would seem they would make some type of retracting statement so the player base would know they were on the table. I mean other then people just wanting their pet card off the list.
Like I said, I havent been following a long so much as of late. Just enjoying the format.
I will say, GGT probably has them leaning toward the more cautious thinking then, 'hey, lets give this a try' mentality.
The game has to cater to all kinds. I personally would rather rip a bomb in limited and know I have a chance to cash out. Then know I never got the bomb and know my chances are rather slim to cash out. Granted, Wotc has gotten better about the power of the bombs for limited reasons. Very few cards in todays Magic are, slam it on the table and you win. In other words, unbeatable cards.
Now if you want to talk constructed, I agree to an extent.
Yeah I frequent 3 main LGS in my area but we have about 20 LGS with in an hour or so. Of those 3 LGS, 1 said they are about equal to last years sales. They are the oldest and most established LGS, so they have a pretty loyal following. Another LGS that has been open only 4 years found sales had gone up each year or Magic. The 3rd LGS said they show a slight down turn in sales of Magic. The 3rd LGS caters to a more casual crowd. Heavy in EDH and Frontier. The only reason I stop in this store is because its like 5 minutes from the house. It was opened by a long time player in the area that I have known for 10+ years.
Sad to see over all sales are down. But I would assume the business has cycles and we are just in a down side.
I tried to tell people that the player base and especially those who buy and sell heavy amounts of cards had caught on to the patterns after Masters sets come out and with the latest Masters set the cycle would be shorter. I doubt you will see a revert unless there is another reprinting of the cards you wish to get. We more or less learned Wotc wont put fetches back into Standard. So fetches are going to continue to climb. Everything else played, even fringe, is going to continue to climb in price.
I have found they are afraid that if they sell/trade today, the card can jump another $3-$5 in the next 24-48 hours. They dont want to miss out on that profit, trade leverage.
I wish you good luck in what ever you are moving on to.
I have been playing and not following along so much with articles and videos about Modern. I know its been a few years but has Aaron Foresythe come out and said they (being those in charge of the ban list) have changed their thinking toward JTMS, SFM, or GSZ? I mean he said they have a grave in Modern and if you want to play those cards there are other formats to play them. Has he (or anyone else form Wotc) come out and made any comments to think their thinking has changed?
Some think back to those days and think the game was great, but the power was all over the place. As the game got refined and they started to understand what they were making, we see now how bad those days were. There was nothing worse then getting beat by a common or uncommon, especially in limited formats. You think you have a solid deck and someone plays this little played common and owns you. Lead to many a salty players and people quitting the competitive scenes and playing much more kitchen table, make up your own rules Magic.
Personally I think todays Magic is heads and shoulders better then back in the first 5-8 years of the game.
They were learning as they went along. Which is fine and I understand. I am not sure how much of the player base they could keep playing if they reverted back to that type of design and development.
I do understand there are some that enjoy explosive broken Magic. I am not one of those.
Which is flawed from the start.
As I have pointed out, Wotc is in a no win situation and there have always been parts of the player base upset about something in some format all the time.
Paraphrasing, Wotc could put $100 bills in packs and there would be a group of players complaining they folded them wrong.
That is how toxic the player base is for Magic.
The lack in sales baffles me because I dont know of a LGS owner in my area complaining of lack of sales. All of them say they are right on track or above with the new sets. These are friends I have made over 20 some years of playing the game. They are straight with me. They tell me when sales are down, when they dont think a format will catch on, what new card game is putting pressure on Magic. So its not some Joe Blow walking into a store hes never been in and asking those questions.