If you are one of the few players that like degenerate eternal formats, then so be it, but don't act as if you were even close to the majority of players, which very clearly ACTIVELY ASKED for a solution to the format.
In my opinion, the problem is that they are fighting a losing battle in trying to endlessly modify the format so that it is not "degenerate". You are talking about a huge number of cards that are legal in this format, and it is going to be very difficult for them to ban every one that creates a "problem" when their definition of problems seems to be so broad.
I agree with what others have said. This basically looks like WOTC took a look at tournament results and just banned all the best cards (most efficient) out there in the format. Now, just watch, though, the format will turn aggro at first and zoo will thrive, but within a month, new combo decks will surface which are very close to as fast as those that got banned. There's just no way to stop that from happening.
Eh. I guess I agree that you shouldn't preorder hyped cards, though I did order a playset of Snapcasters last week. Speculating on unreleased cards I only believe is worth it if you think you have found something that will skyrocket later and the risk (in terms of price) is not that high. For instance, I preordered a playset of Mindshriekers from T&T for $2 a piece...if they go down to $1 or less, most I am going to lose is $6...if they go up in price, then the upside seems much larger.
I've gotten burned on a few preorder investments, and made my money back (mostly in trades, not $$) on several others. Probably broken even in the long run. I really think it comes down to the individual card...either the risk has to be very low ($2 a card or less imo) or you need to be certain that the card is being significantly undervalued, and also have an established deck in one or more formats that you think it fits into. Generally, I agree, its a bad idea to speculate, but there are still rare exceptions where you can come out very much ahead.
There is a reason, though, that all of the big card sellers preorder nowadays...I'm pretty sure their margins on it are far higher than normal selling prices for the cards ~ a month later. When you start every new rare out at $2 and mythic at $5 like is done on SCG, you may get burned on a few individual cards, but this is balanced out by the vast majority of overhyped cards that either flop on release or just slowly lose their value.
Charmbreaker Devils is insane for EDH. Repeating recursive card advantage that can also potentially do tons of damage? Exactly what red needs.
Definitely. And well said...red is really in need of EDH power, especially in the form of CA. Can't wait to put him in my jhoira deck (need a foil though)!
The geist is just awesome. Makes me want to make a deck around him right now...EDH or casual spirits...or maybe casual spirits edh...
Lets move this discussion back to the topic. We have two threads for Banning/Unbanning Discussion.
I've just been watching the format develop, haven't played it at all, but it seems to me that the bannings are at the heart of why the format seems to be so disappointing for many people. In their zeal to ban what they forecasted as the most degenerate decks in the format, WOTC devs failed to see that by banning those strong cards, many just-as-degenerate decks that would have been kept more-in-line by them sprang up instead.
I just took the time to read over the Pro Tour Philly list, and I've got to say, this format does not look fun to play at all. I'd much rather play legacy and have the ability to interact with most of the combo decks regularly than have to face down a hard-casted emrakul or die to grapeshot in pyromancer ascension.
Yes, but the most vocal people on these boards are the ones who only really care about a pet format like Standard or Legacy (and now Modern).
It's the regular conundrum... card gets spoiled... people say "not playable in X format." Card appears that could actually be played in X format, people say "Meh, we've seen better." Then a year later the same people are talking about how "busted and overpowered" the same dang card is.
We see this EVERY year. Not saying it's the case with this card, but we see it happen all the time. And in reverse as well... "OMG a 4 of in X deck!!! Buy it now while it's only $15 a card!!" Card becomes junk rare in 6 months later.
Yup. Initially I believe there was quite a bit of hate for JTMS in that thread. Some people just need to hold their tongue when they post...or um hold their fingers.
The card is great. Personally I think it has a nice mythic feel to it.
This is incredible. But only in Birthing Pod. Here are the scenarios where you'll have 3 creatures in the yard that you can exile:
1. You're Zoo.
2. You're losing really badly.
3. You're Birthing Pod.
4. You're extremely late-game, where a Titan would probably just be better.
5. You're playing Limited.
6. You're Dredge/Reanimator, where you really don't want to exile most of the things you put there (Reanimator) or you never hit 3 mana (Dredge).
SO, when will his extreme cheapness pay off? Pretty much never, because you want to cast him late game and generally have more mana. I guess you can drop him and bluff a counter with your open mana. But while he's good, he's very limited. I would have semi-comfortably preordered him at $10. At $25, absolutely not.
Yep, your list, exactly. I was going to preorder him at $10 as well, as I thought that this was right around what he was worth.
To me it seems a fairly analogous situation to Visions of Beyond. Very efficient card with a nice upside, but with a restrictive cost that prevents it from being relevant in most decks. Price should drop after release I'm guessing.
I think this is a great card, but the current price makes me think it is being a bit overspeculated atm. I think its sort of up in the air whether or not this fits into legacy dredge...to me it looks pretty similar to tombstalker, which had more versatility in the cards RFG'd from the graveyard to play it. There is also, as we all know, quite a big difference between playing cards for 2 mana and 3 in legacy. Just costing mana to return from the grave is a liability these days in dredge decks, as most just play creatures like ichorid that recur for free. Skaab is very solid though, so I am not saying it won't see play in legacy dredge, just that there is fierce competition.
The additional cost of RFGing creature cards in the grave to play is very substantial and shouldn't be overlooked. Unlike tombstalker, which gives you a choice of if and how many GY cards will be RFG'd, skaab demands it.
Its possible it will see play in some sort of modern dredge deck. The only problem with that is that the deck was recently neutered with the bannings of GGT and Dread Return. I'd still say this is Skaab's best bet on a high level of play, as cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable work well with it, and there are a decent amount of legal dredgers around still.
Standard, I don't play, but it seems like it has potential to see play there. In standard it looks pretty similar to abyssal persecutor to me, a card which was much hyped but didn't see the level of play people speculated it might.
The card definitely has potential...but it remains to be seen if it can actually fit into existing decks
The problem I have with Garruk is not the card itself, but why they even bothered revamping the core set Garruk, which is strictly worse than this one.
What a waste of design space...
It is playable. I am not *****ing about that, just that it seems lazy on their part.
Right...yeah...strictly better, because there truly aren't any situations where playing core set garruk is not better than playing INN garruk...?
They are very different designs. As people have pointed out, there's no way for this garruk to gain loyalty when he comes down, while core set garruk gains loyalty while dropping a 3/3. This garruk has no way to generate CA (aside from being a PW that shoots out tokens which arguably is CA), while core set garruk has a way to draw cards, sometimes many. There is nothing close to core set garruk's ultimate on INN garruk.
I'm not saying that either is better than the other, just that they can't really be compared. You've got two very different cards here.
Yes you can activate it twice, but it may or may not save you from shock. Activate: ponder, Activate: land. 4 mana watsed, at least with shifter you only lose 1 mana (tempo wise)
Buried alive effects was the term in my post. Even in aggro based decks, like ones with vengevine (i know, rotating - but i'm using known examples) It gives you the choice to draw, then discard anything else from your hand. Random bird always takes whatever off the top. I just can't abide by wasting tempo for a possible slight gain in power.
But, this is all speculation until the rest of the set is spoiled. They may print a Random Bird Enabler.
1U
Enchantment
U, Choose and discard a creature card: Search your library for a creature card, reveal that card to all players, and put it ontop of your library.
Shuffle your library afterwards.
;-)
I mean, if you are talking entirely about standard, then, yeah you are somewhat light on enablers. Ponder works, though, and that has always been a tournament-quality card. I'd agree that we'll have to wait and see if a top of library stacker is printed.
You are right about the activation in response to removal being random. Still, with a decent enabler for top of library stacking that downside is gone.
Edit: Oh, and yeah, I really hope they make that enchantment.
Ajani Vengeant is pretty bad.
In my opinion, the problem is that they are fighting a losing battle in trying to endlessly modify the format so that it is not "degenerate". You are talking about a huge number of cards that are legal in this format, and it is going to be very difficult for them to ban every one that creates a "problem" when their definition of problems seems to be so broad.
I agree with what others have said. This basically looks like WOTC took a look at tournament results and just banned all the best cards (most efficient) out there in the format. Now, just watch, though, the format will turn aggro at first and zoo will thrive, but within a month, new combo decks will surface which are very close to as fast as those that got banned. There's just no way to stop that from happening.
I know exactly how I'll use it in edh...name Primeval Titan. So tired of that stupid card.
I've gotten burned on a few preorder investments, and made my money back (mostly in trades, not $$) on several others. Probably broken even in the long run. I really think it comes down to the individual card...either the risk has to be very low ($2 a card or less imo) or you need to be certain that the card is being significantly undervalued, and also have an established deck in one or more formats that you think it fits into. Generally, I agree, its a bad idea to speculate, but there are still rare exceptions where you can come out very much ahead.
There is a reason, though, that all of the big card sellers preorder nowadays...I'm pretty sure their margins on it are far higher than normal selling prices for the cards ~ a month later. When you start every new rare out at $2 and mythic at $5 like is done on SCG, you may get burned on a few individual cards, but this is balanced out by the vast majority of overhyped cards that either flop on release or just slowly lose their value.
Yeah it should work...reference this thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=305898&highlight=exalted
Definitely. And well said...red is really in need of EDH power, especially in the form of CA. Can't wait to put him in my jhoira deck (need a foil though)!
The geist is just awesome. Makes me want to make a deck around him right now...EDH or casual spirits...or maybe casual spirits edh...
I've just been watching the format develop, haven't played it at all, but it seems to me that the bannings are at the heart of why the format seems to be so disappointing for many people. In their zeal to ban what they forecasted as the most degenerate decks in the format, WOTC devs failed to see that by banning those strong cards, many just-as-degenerate decks that would have been kept more-in-line by them sprang up instead.
I just took the time to read over the Pro Tour Philly list, and I've got to say, this format does not look fun to play at all. I'd much rather play legacy and have the ability to interact with most of the combo decks regularly than have to face down a hard-casted emrakul or die to grapeshot in pyromancer ascension.
Yup. Initially I believe there was quite a bit of hate for JTMS in that thread. Some people just need to hold their tongue when they post...or um hold their fingers.
The card is great. Personally I think it has a nice mythic feel to it.
Yep, your list, exactly. I was going to preorder him at $10 as well, as I thought that this was right around what he was worth.
To me it seems a fairly analogous situation to Visions of Beyond. Very efficient card with a nice upside, but with a restrictive cost that prevents it from being relevant in most decks. Price should drop after release I'm guessing.
The additional cost of RFGing creature cards in the grave to play is very substantial and shouldn't be overlooked. Unlike tombstalker, which gives you a choice of if and how many GY cards will be RFG'd, skaab demands it.
Its possible it will see play in some sort of modern dredge deck. The only problem with that is that the deck was recently neutered with the bannings of GGT and Dread Return. I'd still say this is Skaab's best bet on a high level of play, as cards like Glimpse the Unthinkable work well with it, and there are a decent amount of legal dredgers around still.
Standard, I don't play, but it seems like it has potential to see play there. In standard it looks pretty similar to abyssal persecutor to me, a card which was much hyped but didn't see the level of play people speculated it might.
The card definitely has potential...but it remains to be seen if it can actually fit into existing decks
Right...yeah...strictly better, because there truly aren't any situations where playing core set garruk is not better than playing INN garruk...?
They are very different designs. As people have pointed out, there's no way for this garruk to gain loyalty when he comes down, while core set garruk gains loyalty while dropping a 3/3. This garruk has no way to generate CA (aside from being a PW that shoots out tokens which arguably is CA), while core set garruk has a way to draw cards, sometimes many. There is nothing close to core set garruk's ultimate on INN garruk.
I'm not saying that either is better than the other, just that they can't really be compared. You've got two very different cards here.
I mean, if you are talking entirely about standard, then, yeah you are somewhat light on enablers. Ponder works, though, and that has always been a tournament-quality card. I'd agree that we'll have to wait and see if a top of library stacker is printed.
You are right about the activation in response to removal being random. Still, with a decent enabler for top of library stacking that downside is gone.
Edit: Oh, and yeah, I really hope they make that enchantment.