I also think most reprints of legacy cards will be cards that don't see play in legacy, are too strong for standard, and will probably be good enough in modern, precisely like fact or fiction, fire//ice, moment's peace, etc. Goblin lackey for example is a possibility because goblins are not even played in legacy anymore, right?
I've been away from modern since like eldrazi winter, and I'm waiting for horizons to get back, I see no point in doing it now because the format will probably change a lot later.
On top of that, there is still that stupid deck (tron) that trumps all the types of decks I'd like to brew and test.
I've just watched the wotc stream and they said something I think people didn't pay enough attention to: they said cabal therapist is in the top10 higher power level of the set.
And therapist as we all know is not very good to say the least. Serra is obviously way worse.
So don't expect this set to dramatically change the format, as they ALSO say in the stream.
Having said that, what will be the buy a box promo? People say they said it's a blue card (can anyone put the link to that info?).
After thinking about it for a bit, I retract myself about force of will not being in the set, and I think it will indeed be force of will.
Why? Because I don't think it would change the format much. Fow in modern would be way less impactful than in legacy, mainly because while fow is the police card of legacy, modern already has one, called the allmighty ban list. I don't think fow will have a big impact, at least not right now, maybe in the future it will, as some broken stuff gets printed and instead of getting banned the format becomes more and more dependant on fow.
And the other big reason I think it will be fow is wizard's cash grab policy, they love money and selling boxes.
UB: destroy target attacking creature. Draw a card. If your enemy doesn't play creatures, you can still cantrip.
Fair.
Sure, it's a removal spell that's not that good in a creatureless control deck cos it makes your opponent's removal spells live, but if you play it along other creatures, it's so OP. SCM has been played in creatureless control decks, and it's been good anyways.
Strix is a 2for1 at 2cmc. Not any kind of 2for1, a cantrip+removal at 2cmc. Would the format explode and be unplayable with it? No, but I think it would probably be a worse format. Maybe not, who knows, I have not played legacy with strix legal so someone who plays both modern and legacy will have a much better understanding than me. At wizards they have some people who do.
It's funny how the card I said a few weeks back should be banned and everyone said wtf are you saying, is now being discussed as a very possible ban :).
I lost count on how many of those were in the top16 of the last GP.
SFM would go straight into jeskai obviously. The deck would take a few anti aggro cards out, and put SFM, batterskull and some anti tron cards in the main.
I wonder if Tron is really that 5% of the meta mtggoldfish says, because I surely find it way more than once in every 20 games.
PD: Sanctum is better than Eye because it's better against aggro, the one archetype Tron needs to beat, not control or midrange, those are archetypes Tron beats without even thinking of what to play next, just putting cards into the BF. If Tron had Eye legal, they would still use Sanctum. With Eye instead of Sanctum, their win% increases against slow decks but drops against aggro decks. They lose way more win% against those aggro decks than the tiny bit win% they lose against the slow decks, which are decks they beat anyways emrakul, or no emrakul.
@lord_seth: I'm too lazy right now to answer all those claims, maybe later. I'd gladly revert the power level of everything to 2 years ago. I assure you that slow decks have not gotten as many good toys as Tron has. 2 years or whatever, don't know exactly how long it's been since new ulamog. Before new ulamog I had a 70% winrate against Tron with RUG scapeshift. Now it's reversed.
Back in the day in wow you had 1 class at max level and if your class got nerfed, you had to stick with the nerfs, because leveling and equipiing the fotm class would take months.
If they banned cards that didn't delete the decks from existence and just banned cards that make them be over the top, like banning stirrings, no one loses their deck.
Tron without stirrings loses consistency. The deck doesn't stop being viable. They go back to 2 years ago power level. That, or ban ulamog.
Ulamog and world breakers cast clauses of destroying lands and ugin's destroy everthing ability are mainly what put Tron over the top against slow decks. Need to fix that ****. Revert back when the only thing they could do with lots of mana was wurmcoil engines, karns -3, and 15 mana emrakuls. Those were pathable, boltable, counterable cards until they got to 15 mana. Waaaaaaaaaay more fair than the uncounterable/destroy everything things they are casting now. Plus sanctum is probably even better than eye of ugin, really.
If nothing gets changed from tron I believe the format will be trapped between aggro decks that beat Tron, and Tron decks preying on decks designed to beat those aggro decks but that miserably lose to Tron. A rock papers scissors format where every game is a 70-30 that you know are gonna win or lose from turn 1.
@Nyzzeh
well i hope you can see how its difficult to find your argument compelling in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. tron has ups and downs just like a bunch of fair/midrange/control decks.
i can understand wanting control and midrange decks to be more of a presence in the format because the gameplay may be more interesting. also tbh i dont buy into the notion that the modern ecosystem is this fragile thing that would collapse if tron was no longer around.
that said i subscribe to the mentality of letting people do what they want as long as it isnt oppressive. especially in a format like modern, which is supposed to showcase the breadth of what magic has to offer. its one of the primary reasons to play it over something like standard, which has its own identity of offering rich gameplay (at least it should be) but with less dimensions (ie little to no combo, prison, etc).
if i had to guess, i would say that many of the people that complain about some of the more degenerate aspects of modern are seeking a format that plays like standard, but is non-rotating. im not sure if you fall into this category Nyzzeh, but it might be worth examining your feelings on the subject to see if you do.
What I hate is starting a game and knowing after their first tron land that my chances of winning are very small. And that happens with any kind of slow deck, not just a handful of decks. Entire archetypes are at an almost guaranteed loss since turn1 against Tron.
That is of course compensated by the more or less same feeling Tron players have when they see they got paired against aggro. But it's just plainly unfun. Fun is as important as format balance, and there is one deck making the format boring.
PD: sorry I said earlier that mardu had a decent MU against tron. Have never played that deck and didn't know it still has a horrible MU against tron even with blood moon MD. But it also does not surprise me one bit. Sad, and boring.
By all measures, the majority do not find the format "boring." It's both the most-viewed and most-played format. It's also the most diverse. I understand that you personally don't like Tron, but that isn't exactly something to craft a format-wide policy around. Nor something to generalize around regarding format-wide fun.
It also gets back to the perceived entitlement of fair deck players. No other deck pilots regularly come into this thread and complain about an allegedly unwinnable or disheartening matchup. And when they do, they are rightfully dismissed. If you play combo and opponent opens on T1 TS, that typically signals a pending loss. The Affinity mage doesn't whine about losing to Bolt, Helix, Electrolyze. Or to Stony Silence. The Titan Shift player doesn't complain about losing to a T2 Kitesail into T3 Meddling Mage. The Dredge player does not come here to condemn format fun when Leylines and RiPs crash their MWP in events. The 30/70 dogs to Twin never came in here either. It's always just the fair deck players who present as wanting to remove their bad matchups and complain that they can't have a 50/50+ deck.
Some fair deck players make more nuanced arguments than this, so don't take this as a categorical swipe against all who pilot the archetype. But if you're in Nyzz's camp and truly believe the presence of something like Tron genuinely makes the format less fun, I encourage you to reevaluate your beliefs from another perspective.
You didn't fully get my point over the last posts.
My point is that a couple years ago, Tron already existed and did pretty much the same thing as it does now, but it was waaaaaay lighter. It was way more beatable with "fair" decks than it is now.
The problem IMO is that wizards doesn't handle the ban list properly. IMO, more bans and unbans should be done, more frequently. The ban list should be treated as a balance patch like they do in online games. Let's ban stirrings and see how the meta evolves etc.
But it's not wizards fault IMO, it's the players fault, because most of them are super anti ban list changes. It's like every ban is gonna make the sky fall...
And I say this because I'm worried. I'm worried about the format. I am too someone who started with the whole overextended thing and even wrote a letter to wizards asking them to create this format.
But my enjoyment of the format is dropping. Dropping because of things like tron. And I know the format could be much better than it is now, that's why I complain. If I knew the format couldn't be better, I'd say nothing and quit.
Oh and about the SFM unban, I actually think now that it'd be bad for the format. It essencially makes aggro worse, which in turn makes Tron even better.
@Nyzzeh
well i hope you can see how its difficult to find your argument compelling in the face of all the evidence to the contrary. tron has ups and downs just like a bunch of fair/midrange/control decks.
i can understand wanting control and midrange decks to be more of a presence in the format because the gameplay may be more interesting. also tbh i dont buy into the notion that the modern ecosystem is this fragile thing that would collapse if tron was no longer around.
that said i subscribe to the mentality of letting people do what they want as long as it isnt oppressive. especially in a format like modern, which is supposed to showcase the breadth of what magic has to offer. its one of the primary reasons to play it over something like standard, which has its own identity of offering rich gameplay (at least it should be) but with less dimensions (ie little to no combo, prison, etc).
if i had to guess, i would say that many of the people that complain about some of the more degenerate aspects of modern are seeking a format that plays like standard, but is non-rotating. im not sure if you fall into this category Nyzzeh, but it might be worth examining your feelings on the subject to see if you do.
What I hate is starting a game and knowing after their first tron land that my chances of winning are very small. And that happens with any kind of slow deck, not just a handful of decks. Entire archetypes are at an almost guaranteed loss since turn1 against Tron.
That is of course compensated by the more or less same feeling Tron players have when they see they got paired against aggro. But it's just plainly unfun. Fun is as important as format balance, and there is one deck making the format boring.
PD: sorry I said earlier that mardu had a decent MU against tron. Have never played that deck and didn't know it still has a horrible MU against tron even with blood moon MD. But it also does not surprise me one bit. Sad, and boring.
On top of that, there is still that stupid deck (tron) that trumps all the types of decks I'd like to brew and test.
And therapist as we all know is not very good to say the least. Serra is obviously way worse.
So don't expect this set to dramatically change the format, as they ALSO say in the stream.
Having said that, what will be the buy a box promo? People say they said it's a blue card (can anyone put the link to that info?).
After thinking about it for a bit, I retract myself about force of will not being in the set, and I think it will indeed be force of will.
Why? Because I don't think it would change the format much. Fow in modern would be way less impactful than in legacy, mainly because while fow is the police card of legacy, modern already has one, called the allmighty ban list. I don't think fow will have a big impact, at least not right now, maybe in the future it will, as some broken stuff gets printed and instead of getting banned the format becomes more and more dependant on fow.
And the other big reason I think it will be fow is wizard's cash grab policy, they love money and selling boxes.
Fair.
Sure, it's a removal spell that's not that good in a creatureless control deck cos it makes your opponent's removal spells live, but if you play it along other creatures, it's so OP. SCM has been played in creatureless control decks, and it's been good anyways.
fire // ice love this card
counterspell shouldve been the fow of modern since long ago
fact or fiction, this card is pretty fun
vindicate, but I dont think it will make much of an impact, too slow
pernicious deed, same as vindicate
diabolic edict and innocent blood never a bad thing to have removal diversity
What is NOT GOOD for the format:
fow
better cantrips than visions or opt
strix
easy land destruction
And if they could make better maindeck cards against tron like trophy itd be great.
I lost count on how many of those were in the top16 of the last GP.
PD: Sanctum is better than Eye because it's better against aggro, the one archetype Tron needs to beat, not control or midrange, those are archetypes Tron beats without even thinking of what to play next, just putting cards into the BF. If Tron had Eye legal, they would still use Sanctum. With Eye instead of Sanctum, their win% increases against slow decks but drops against aggro decks. They lose way more win% against those aggro decks than the tiny bit win% they lose against the slow decks, which are decks they beat anyways emrakul, or no emrakul.
@lord_seth: I'm too lazy right now to answer all those claims, maybe later. I'd gladly revert the power level of everything to 2 years ago. I assure you that slow decks have not gotten as many good toys as Tron has. 2 years or whatever, don't know exactly how long it's been since new ulamog. Before new ulamog I had a 70% winrate against Tron with RUG scapeshift. Now it's reversed.
If they banned cards that didn't delete the decks from existence and just banned cards that make them be over the top, like banning stirrings, no one loses their deck.
Tron without stirrings loses consistency. The deck doesn't stop being viable. They go back to 2 years ago power level. That, or ban ulamog.
Ulamog and world breakers cast clauses of destroying lands and ugin's destroy everthing ability are mainly what put Tron over the top against slow decks. Need to fix that ****. Revert back when the only thing they could do with lots of mana was wurmcoil engines, karns -3, and 15 mana emrakuls. Those were pathable, boltable, counterable cards until they got to 15 mana. Waaaaaaaaaay more fair than the uncounterable/destroy everything things they are casting now. Plus sanctum is probably even better than eye of ugin, really.
If nothing gets changed from tron I believe the format will be trapped between aggro decks that beat Tron, and Tron decks preying on decks designed to beat those aggro decks but that miserably lose to Tron. A rock papers scissors format where every game is a 70-30 that you know are gonna win or lose from turn 1.
You didn't fully get my point over the last posts.
My point is that a couple years ago, Tron already existed and did pretty much the same thing as it does now, but it was waaaaaay lighter. It was way more beatable with "fair" decks than it is now.
The problem IMO is that wizards doesn't handle the ban list properly. IMO, more bans and unbans should be done, more frequently. The ban list should be treated as a balance patch like they do in online games. Let's ban stirrings and see how the meta evolves etc.
But it's not wizards fault IMO, it's the players fault, because most of them are super anti ban list changes. It's like every ban is gonna make the sky fall...
And I say this because I'm worried. I'm worried about the format. I am too someone who started with the whole overextended thing and even wrote a letter to wizards asking them to create this format.
But my enjoyment of the format is dropping. Dropping because of things like tron. And I know the format could be much better than it is now, that's why I complain. If I knew the format couldn't be better, I'd say nothing and quit.
Oh and about the SFM unban, I actually think now that it'd be bad for the format. It essencially makes aggro worse, which in turn makes Tron even better.
What I hate is starting a game and knowing after their first tron land that my chances of winning are very small. And that happens with any kind of slow deck, not just a handful of decks. Entire archetypes are at an almost guaranteed loss since turn1 against Tron.
That is of course compensated by the more or less same feeling Tron players have when they see they got paired against aggro. But it's just plainly unfun. Fun is as important as format balance, and there is one deck making the format boring.
PD: sorry I said earlier that mardu had a decent MU against tron. Have never played that deck and didn't know it still has a horrible MU against tron even with blood moon MD. But it also does not surprise me one bit. Sad, and boring.