People ITT are hilarious. The lands are quite good - Rootbound Crag never stopped you from drawing another one the next turn. Midrange decks and control decks don't usually have a play turn 1 so the Scry is a free roll. I think Tom LaPille's worries are legitmate, they might be too good. The card selection in a deck with 12 of these seems incredible.
You are kidding yourself if you don't think that these should have been rare or that they should Scry 2. For their power level they are certainly desrving of Rare and if they Scry'd more than one they would be beyond overpowered.
In a month and half these will be in every deck that can play them and all the naysayers in this thread will be eating crow. Believe it.
Been testing a list very similar to Joe Bernal's to astounding results. I've playtested extensively against Bant Control, Miracles, Jund Midrange, and Reanimator and all of those matchups feel trivial. If a deck with 4 Thragtusk, 4 Centaur Healer, and 4 Terminus is weak to this deck I'm not exactly sure what's good against it...
While I feel Blood Artist is good, I dislike him in the maindeck right now. Against decks that frequently want to trade their guys for yours (any Lingering Souls deck) he's a snap board-in, but seeing as how he is basically worse than a burn spell against the current control decks I don't like him main.
Also I would not leave home without Bump. Miracles basically has no way to interact with it, and they never kill you before you can flash it back. AND they have no way to gain life. Even against Thragtusk decks I felt like Bump was very powerful. Often they would play Thragtusk and I wouldn't even care. Bant Control is the deck I've played against the most and I must say that many games come down to needing to rip 3 damage, so I like playing the full suite of burn.
Overrated: Dismember. It's splashable removal and kills anything sub-titan, yea. But how often do you see it run these days? Black has better removal in Doom Blade/GftT now that indestructible creatures aren't seeing play, and nobody feels good about having to pay a card and 4 life for conditional creature removal in a world of undying, titans, and hexproof.
Underrated: Torpor Orb. Why this isn't found in more sideboards is beyond my comprehension. It hates efficiently upon so many relevant cards, including Snapcaster Mage, the Titans, the Splicers, Solemn Simulacrum, anything worth playing in Pod, Geralf's Messenger, Huntmaster of the Fells, Dungeon Geists, anything with Soulbond, Stonehorn Dignitary, Deciever Exarch... ETB effects define the current standard. Conversely, it makes cards like Demonlord of Ashmouth reasonable, a strategy that not enough people have experimented with.
Aren't many of the creatures you claim torpor orb is good against weak to dismember?
Don't really understand the complaints, this cycle appeals to new players, are very cheap and accessible to anyone looking to play tournament magic, and are just generally like the fairest cycle of dual lands ever...Wizards has a very good reason for reprinting them: there's virtually no reason not to.
So I've been bouncing some ideas of some intelligent people and this is where I'm at right now. I think Fauna Shaman is the direction we want to take this deck.
So I jammed some games against Sneak and Show with Griselbrand today, and didn't win a single game. The deck is absolutely disgusting, and my opponent was able to overcome me having a ridiculous amount of hate in play (in one game I believe I had Thalia, Teeg, AND Karakas in play and he still found a way to murder me.)
I looked to my sideboard for answers and found that I had no real cards for the matchup. Anyone have any secret tech they'd like to share? The cards traditionally good against Sneak and Show unfortunately happen to prevent us from winning the game: Peacekeeper, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
woah woah woah
i may hate this dude but this guy can end games with the insurrection deal. sure, there might be better cards, but we are talking about limited here.
If there's a place for him, it'll be the place where a 2/3 flier for 1WW was considered format defining.
That being said, he has no way of protecting himself, and assuming you have him on turn 2 (statistically unlikely) he has to stay on the board undisturbed for 5 turns.
If you can protect a card as fragile as that for that many turns you're probably winning anyway. And as it turns out, casting insurrection is not always game ending in limited.
99% of the time I think I'd rather just play goblin piker on turn 2.
So you never draw extra land, or situational cards? Board card #8 when you didn't need 2? I hear seeing extra cards in a game is bad...
I've actually lost faith in the majority of people on this board's ability to judge cards. It's ok, when Patrick Chapin praises this card you'll all pretend like you knew it all along.
Funny, I'm thinking the same thing right now
Situational cards are fine sometimes. Take Naturalize. It's only good when there's an artifact or enchantment in play that you want to destroy. Why is Naturalize good? It can turn the tide of a game. Ahead? opponents chance of recovering is an artifact or enchantment? Naturalize seals the deal. Getting bashed by Sword of Feast and Famine with your mono green deck? Naturalize helps you get back in the game.
Sure, sometimes it will do nothing, that's how that card works. But when it's good it's good no matter whether or not you're winning or losing (of course, sometimes the situation is so bad or good it's irrelevant, but that's neither here nor there)
the point is, Tibalt does NEITHER. When your behind drawing and discarding one at random isnt going to put you back in the game, and it's not really going to help you finish off an opponent either.
Two mana planeswalker is cute, sure, but stone unplayable if you're trying to be competitive in literally any format, including limited.
If you have cards in your hand that you actually care if they're discarded, you shouldn't have cast/activated Tibalt. If you have a marginal hand that is likely to be improved by trading out a random card, Tibalt is beneficial. If not, keep him in your hand, you still have a hand full of good cards (which is why you're not casting Tibalt).
In this situation, why not just play a card that does something relevant more often? Why play a card that is so situational?
Let's examine your points:
If you have cards in your hand that you actually care if they're discarded, you shouldn't have cast/activated Tibalt
Aren't you going to be in this situation most of the time on turn 2? Aren't most decks constructed such that they have good cards in them that they want to cast?
If you have a marginal hand that is likely to be improved by trading out a random card, Tibalt is beneficial.
Yes this is somewhat true. This card doesn't do this terribly efficiently though, and there's still the possibility that this card just puts you further behind.
If not, keep him in your hand, you still have a hand full of good cards (which is why you're not casting Tibalt)
Exactly. Tibalt is a brick in this situation. What if he was just another good card?
Why play a card that is only good when you're behind, and even then, remains to be fairly marginal?
Why are you looting when you still have spells to play??? why not play the spell and then loot?
You won't always be able to play all the spells in your hand before you activate this guy, and even if you do, it's possible you just mill the top card of your library.
If you hold this guy in your hand long enough such that he is the last spell you cast, his -4 will be irrelevant against most decks.
If you run him out but then don't activate him, you're spending 2 mana to literally do nothing.
Maverick does have the tools to defeat combo (by virtue of it being the best toolbox deck in Legacy at the moment) but they often can't get to them unless they GSZ or naturally draw them, which is usually too slow. I personally cannot wait until a combo deck (Hopefully TES/ANT or LED Dredge) takes a Maverick-filled SCG Open by surprise and wins the whole thing.
Also, Maverick taking six spots in one open isn't a bad thing. Now, If it takes that many spots in the next few opens (like UW Stoneblade/NO RUG used to do back in Mental Misstep summer) then it could be an issue, but right now it's totally fine.
As a Maverick player, I am 100% pleased to see Putrid Imp across the table from me. Between Ooze, Thalia, Bog, and E Tutor + Crypt, the matchup is favorable for Maverick, even if they're playing the LED version.
You are kidding yourself if you don't think that these should have been rare or that they should Scry 2. For their power level they are certainly desrving of Rare and if they Scry'd more than one they would be beyond overpowered.
In a month and half these will be in every deck that can play them and all the naysayers in this thread will be eating crow. Believe it.
My list, FTR:
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
Spells
4 Brimstone Volley
4 Searing Spear
4 Bump in the Night
3 Pillar of Flame
4 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
10 Swamp
4 Blood Artist
4 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Dreadbore
2 Olivia Voldaren
1 Pillar of Flame
While I feel Blood Artist is good, I dislike him in the maindeck right now. Against decks that frequently want to trade their guys for yours (any Lingering Souls deck) he's a snap board-in, but seeing as how he is basically worse than a burn spell against the current control decks I don't like him main.
Also I would not leave home without Bump. Miracles basically has no way to interact with it, and they never kill you before you can flash it back. AND they have no way to gain life. Even against Thragtusk decks I felt like Bump was very powerful. Often they would play Thragtusk and I wouldn't even care. Bant Control is the deck I've played against the most and I must say that many games come down to needing to rip 3 damage, so I like playing the full suite of burn.
Aren't many of the creatures you claim torpor orb is good against weak to dismember?
I don't see how you could ever think this card is bad in the current metagame. Couldn't imagine playing fewer than 3 in any deck that can support it.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Fauna Shaman
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Path to Exile
1 Gideon Jura
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Linvala Keeper of Silence
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Still need to work out some kinks and determine what's needed but this is where I'm starting.
I looked to my sideboard for answers and found that I had no real cards for the matchup. Anyone have any secret tech they'd like to share? The cards traditionally good against Sneak and Show unfortunately happen to prevent us from winning the game: Peacekeeper, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.
If there's a place for him, it'll be the place where a 2/3 flier for 1WW was considered format defining.
That being said, he has no way of protecting himself, and assuming you have him on turn 2 (statistically unlikely) he has to stay on the board undisturbed for 5 turns.
If you can protect a card as fragile as that for that many turns you're probably winning anyway. And as it turns out, casting insurrection is not always game ending in limited.
99% of the time I think I'd rather just play goblin piker on turn 2.
Funny, I'm thinking the same thing right now
Situational cards are fine sometimes. Take Naturalize. It's only good when there's an artifact or enchantment in play that you want to destroy. Why is Naturalize good? It can turn the tide of a game. Ahead? opponents chance of recovering is an artifact or enchantment? Naturalize seals the deal. Getting bashed by Sword of Feast and Famine with your mono green deck? Naturalize helps you get back in the game.
Sure, sometimes it will do nothing, that's how that card works. But when it's good it's good no matter whether or not you're winning or losing (of course, sometimes the situation is so bad or good it's irrelevant, but that's neither here nor there)
the point is, Tibalt does NEITHER. When your behind drawing and discarding one at random isnt going to put you back in the game, and it's not really going to help you finish off an opponent either.
Two mana planeswalker is cute, sure, but stone unplayable if you're trying to be competitive in literally any format, including limited.
In this situation, why not just play a card that does something relevant more often? Why play a card that is so situational?
Let's examine your points:
Aren't you going to be in this situation most of the time on turn 2? Aren't most decks constructed such that they have good cards in them that they want to cast?
Yes this is somewhat true. This card doesn't do this terribly efficiently though, and there's still the possibility that this card just puts you further behind.
Exactly. Tibalt is a brick in this situation. What if he was just another good card?
Why play a card that is only good when you're behind, and even then, remains to be fairly marginal?
You won't always be able to play all the spells in your hand before you activate this guy, and even if you do, it's possible you just mill the top card of your library.
If you hold this guy in your hand long enough such that he is the last spell you cast, his -4 will be irrelevant against most decks.
If you run him out but then don't activate him, you're spending 2 mana to literally do nothing.
this card is very, very bad.
Are you saying RDW doesn't care about what it's discarding?
+1 draw mountain, discard spell
+1 draw mountain, discard spell
oops. Lost the game to my own card!
Drawing two lands and discarding two spells is exactly what we want to be doing in our (likely) Mono Red deck, right?
As a Maverick player, I am 100% pleased to see Putrid Imp across the table from me. Between Ooze, Thalia, Bog, and E Tutor + Crypt, the matchup is favorable for Maverick, even if they're playing the LED version.