Duress is probably a much better call. And manlands I haven't had a lot of issue with, given the 4 Path, 4 Downfall and the Presence / Ghost Quarters in the board. I don't think you want signet as you can generally stall the game till turn 4. I know scepter is gimmicky, but the fact that you grow Myth every time you use it and that it is a must answer card gives it some allure. But I may need to do some testing without it and see what happens. Sorin in there to help the burn match up.
We have actually been considering Lingering Souls. I will be looking to test it later I will just have to trim some stuff. I have discard in the form of Funeral Charm, but past that its a matter of personal preference. In that I hate drawing discard and would rather draw literally any other card in any match up other than combo. They are also both sorceries so they didn't pair well with Scepter. Funeral Charm + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth also helps out with that (which I am noticing I forgot to update the mana base).
The idea behind the deck is that you are removing everything from the board that could be an issue, all the while making your Myth Realized huge. I have been testing this online for a while now and all in all it has been pretty good, but I am curious to see what the community thinks. I am happy to explain any and all card choices if there is any interest in the deck. The only thing I have been considering is cutting the Spellbomb for another Walker, but not 100% on that. Also switching out Evil Presence for Contaminated Grounds / Phyrexian Arena for Sign in Blood, Read the Bones, or maybe Erebos, God of the Dead though he would never turn on.
That's true. I had always dismissed Master Transmuter as kind of gimmicky and trying too hard to only play really big creatures like Blightsteel Colossus that are too hard to cast without it, but I never really thought about the flash aspect. In this way I think it is a better Shimmer Myr which will make it worth testing.
On a side note, it might be worth it to play a 1-of Staff of Domination because it combos with Tezz and Architect. Something you wouldn't want to rely on, but could be backbreaking if it ever came up.
Master Transmuter wants to abuse CITP effects and faties, which is not quite where this deck is at. She's a goodie, and I've wanted to make her work for ages, but it's a different style of deck. I mean, you could morph the deck into something more attuned to her with Myr Battlespheres/Thopter Assemblies as finishers, Faerie Mechanist/Solemn Simulacrum as value enablers, but I don't know that it's better given how much it hinges on her.
As for Staff, I could maybe see one in the board in really grindy matches. I'm personally not a fan given we're trying not to actually combo it off with infinite mana (which you could with Pili-Pala, but that's a whole other package). It warrants testing I suppose.
Also, regarding the instant speed Duplicant, if you have to rely on another card to make your card good, it's an argument against it, not for it. Having the potential to cast it instant speed is nice, but it shouldn't be relied upon.
I agree with you that it wants to abuse CITP abilities, but being able to put in threats like Wurmcoil Engine without having to worry about them being countered or as a surprise blocker or as a way to blank a Path to Exile. I look at her as Architects 5-8 / Cavern of Souls 5-8.
In regards to Staff of Domination, I love the card in Legacy and would be curious how it does in Modern. However I am not convinced that it will have as much of an impact. Though being able to tap down a Pestermite in response to it being enchanted seems nice, and the fact that you can turn any left over untaped creatures into life or cards is definitely an added benefit too.
I used those as examples, but really, Hatchling wouldn't be playable in modern, and Shriekmaw has Evoke and evasion. Duplicant definitely does some work, but it's not the same. This is clearly seen by the fact that it only ever gets 1, maybe 2 slots in the deck. We just need more interactive cards because while our game plan is proactive, it's not like Storm where we can just ignore the opponent.
I don't really know how to explain it any better.
I was saying Duplicant is better for 2 reasons. First, it has no restrictions on it's removal like the non-black clause in each of your examples. And second, it is an artifact creature with CMC 6 and therefore fits perfectly into the deck's game plan.
Also, the reason only 1 or 2 get played in most lists is because of the shear number of tutors and various other draw spells. I play 1 mainboard with 5 tutors that can find him. That effectively gives me 6 copies of Duplicant, and the tutors can all be copied by Metamorphs making them each reusable. Serum Visions and Tezz can both dig when it's necessary. I almost never want Duplicant in my starting hand, but I never have trouble finding him if I need him.
I'm not disagreeing with any of that, but unfortunately, Duplicant can't beat Twin, doesn't do anything to wide decks like Zoo or Affinity, and is incredibly costly to recur if you need to kill multiple creatures (I mean, you could use your Metamorphs, but they're flex slots). It can also be easily circumvented by Pod players if they play their cards right. Duplicant is certainly not bad, and it's easily the best option given the available cards, but there's room for improvement.
I understand we agree that Duplicant is currently the best card for its slot, but it has wider applications than you think.
You're right, Duplicant cannot beat twin and so gets sided out against it as well as against Storm, Scapeshift, and Control. However it is good against Zoo, Affinity, and other aggro decks. For Zoo, it's relevant to remove one of their larger creatures while also keeping pressure on them (it should be noted that it gains Goyf's p/t ability). Against affinity it can hit Etched Champions as well as other threats. Have you ever hit an Arcbound Ravager with a Spellskite in play? That's value. Sure, it doesn't hit Inkmoth Nexus, but that's what Shackles, Sphinxes, and sideboarded Dismembers are for.
Also, it has a high CMC but doesn't really take much effort to recur given that we are a deck focused on make artifacts cheaper and easier to play.
I might be crazy but I would look at Decimator Web as a one of additional win con. No one would really see it coming and it rewards you for sitting behind a bridge.
You are. I would rather utilize Koth ultimates and whatever Chandra can do if I'm gonna siet behind a bridge.
You may be right but at least with D Web you get all the style points, haha.
I have an idea... the problem with the deck is we need either need draw or deck manipulation. Being able to sometimes tutor turn three is too slow. Since we can't stick our first threat until turn 4. Then half the time you just draw dorks and don't get anywhere, it needs some kind of card velocity we can't rely on top decks like a Rock deck can.
What about ichor wellspring + Perilous Research? I haven't tested it yet it just came to me while I was lying in bed last night. I will probably have a go at the Transmuter version but I do love just having all the cloneswith metamorph. I'd definitely run shackles with research since you can steal and sac to draw.
I run Ichor Wellspring in my Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas control deck as my primary draw engine. It works nicely with Phyrexia's Core and would be amazing with Transmuter. Now though you have me moving in a different direction, because Ensoul Artifact also happens to be awesome with Ichor Wellspring. I don't know if the list would see sit in this thread but I'll see where my brewing takes me.
I still like Master Transmuter, because it can put a broad range of artifacts into play and is more or less a MoM for artifacts. It lets you dodge removal for targetable artifacts, because you can pick up and put down the same artifact. So Contagion Engine and Spine of Ish Sah look a lot better. Engine works well with Quest as well, as long as you have one counter on it.
@VariousBoots - Your U creature count seems low for full Architect utilization. I would try Chief Engineer in the spot. Because after you pump a mana into Architect to make one of your artifact creatures U you are only netting one mana which is the same effect as Chief. Overall your deck looks really similar to a standard deck I used to play. I am curious what you find after more testing, but ultimately I found that there were too many competing elements to the deck. I also still question how good Lodestone Golem really is coming down on turn 3+ in modern, in my experience it hasn't done amounted to much as my opponent has played a lot of their power cards by that point.
@Narvuntien - The Revokers and Skites are there for combo. The 4th of each being in the board. I have also been toying with Leyline of Sanctity in the board, Grafdigger's Cage, Torpor Orb, and/or [card]Tormod's Crypt[/card}. Cage is what I am leaning towards for POD and Orb hurts me as well. Haven't played against Storm yet, but Skite and Revoker are good against Twin and Leyline could fill the Storm / Jund hate roles. Just need to do some more testing. I will also being testing the Familiars soon as well, to see how much more I can get out and how early I can constantly do it.
Thinking about playing this tonight at FNM, but haven't even looked at std in about a year. What sideboard cards should I be running for a pretty general meta. ITs about a 50 man field with everything ranging from burn to brews to UW control.
I briefly thought about Trinket Mage and the Tron package. However Trinket Mage and other low cost artifacts aren't really contributing to the overall goal of the deck, in my view. The Tron mana base is great, but unlike the Posts base in Legacy where you only need two lands of 10-12 lands to see benefit, you have to see 3 different land. Which you then have to devote more slots to cards to help you assemble the lands or just hope to natural draw the combo. In that case I would rather have utility lands rather than cross my fingers.
No Phyrexian Metamorph is a hold over from my Legacy MUD list. When you get to copy a Tarmogoyf or a Stone Forge Mystic (to get Batterskull / I know SFM isn't Modern legal but still) its amazing, and in this deck I sure it would be amazing to copy a Grand Architect or a Staff of Nin. But copying any of the threats in the deck would likely be win more. I could be wrong but I don't know if Meta deserves a main board slot.
Though I did just realize that you can do a Modern version of the Metalworker combo in Modern, using Grand Architect, Staff of Domination, and Pili-Pala. You could use Fabricate to help set it up too but then you probably have a different deck. For those not in the know, you make infinite mana, infinite life, draw your whole deck and tap their team down. You typically draw until you find a Blightsteel Colossus and Lightning Greaves, play, equip, swing, win.
I might be crazy but I would look at Decimator Web as a one of additional win con. No one would really see it coming and it rewards you for sitting behind a bridge.
I have been having some luck on MTGO with this list. I have been playing MUD in legacy for years and wanted to do something similar in Modern. I originally tried to do exactly what MUD does and try to lock the board down with Lodestone Golem type effects and Chalice of the Void. In my testing the lack of Sol lands or reliable ways to make 4+ mana on turn 2 hurts that strategy. If you are on the draw Lodestone and Chalice don't do nearly enough, because your opponent has likely played anything you wanted to stop or delay. That being said I think Chalice should be in the board for burn and other aggressive strategies.
I think you have to run some number of Spellskite main as this deck is soft to fast aggro / combo strategies game one. You also want to have various answers to a wide field and ways to recur them.
So thinking of that and taking my Legacy experience into consideration this is the list I came up with. It has answers to most of the field and has several different paths to victory; U beats, man land beats, infect, I even won a game using only Staff of Nin and recurring Contagion Engine with Master Transmuter.
If you haven't tried Master Transmuter yet, she is an all-star. Being able to recur Engine, Staff (to get rid of a 2 toughness creature), Spine of Ish Sah, and Sundering Titan is amazing. It also adds another protection type spell as you can return a targeted artifact to your hand and immediately put it back into play. And EOTing a Blightsteel Colossus is always a ton of fun. It does die to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile but it dodges Abrupt Decay.
Vedalken Engineer seems to be under rated on this thread. People kill you mana dorks and while Chief Engineer is very good and a great blocker, it is still very reliant on you having a multitude of creatures on the field to be truly useful; where as VE produces 2 on its own. VE also taps for colored mana that can be used on artifact abilities, which is awesome for Master.
Phyrexia's Core is in there for some added protection from exile effects, since the deck runs both Academy Ruins and Buried Ruin for graveyard recursion. It also has some play against aggro strategies.
Faerie Conclave is my replacement for Mishra's factory, because the flying is a real plus and it gets pumps from Grand Architect. I have been able to close a few games out with them after board wipes.
Halimar Depths is for some deck manipulation. If I had more shuffle effects I could see going up on their number and reducing Conclave to 3. But I am not sure I want to run fetches as Bloodmoon then becomes a serious issue.
Both Depths and Conclave are in the deck as substitute one drops. Both are strong and nothing has felt wrong so far in testing.
Once I figure out my board I will post it as well.
My experience in Modern is not as vast as it is in Legacy so if I made any big mistakes let me know. I can say that I have not settled on a board yet, and need to test against POD some more but from the 20 odd games I have jammed on MTGO I think this Archetype has some real potential. If anyone has any questions in regards to card choices or anything let me know.
Yeah I mean I have 4 lodestones main and had one in game one and wurmcoil out. He was at 2 life and still went off turn 4. And how often do you get titan out before they go off, let alone a welder to keep the land hate? I am just saying post board I was had 4 lodestones, 3 trinsiphere, a titan, needles, etc and aggressive mulligans that still didnt put a dent in his plan.
So as I found out over the weekend, if you play against High Tide you might as well not even play. How have you guys dealt with High Tide and have you thought about splashing white for Ethersworn Cannonist? She seems like she could be nuts and it wouldn't be an auto loss against combo. Keep in mind I had a turn one Trinisphere in play game two and he still ran me over...
3 Funeral Charm
4 Myth Realized
4 Path to Exile
2 Dawn Charm
2 Imp's Mischief
3 Isochron Scepter
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Hero's Downfall
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Wrath of God
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Mutavault
4 Temple of Silence
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Evil Presence
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
I agree with you that it wants to abuse CITP abilities, but being able to put in threats like Wurmcoil Engine without having to worry about them being countered or as a surprise blocker or as a way to blank a Path to Exile. I look at her as Architects 5-8 / Cavern of Souls 5-8.
In regards to Staff of Domination, I love the card in Legacy and would be curious how it does in Modern. However I am not convinced that it will have as much of an impact. Though being able to tap down a Pestermite in response to it being enchanted seems nice, and the fact that you can turn any left over untaped creatures into life or cards is definitely an added benefit too.
Duplicant hits at instant speed, using Master Transmuter. Yes its a two card combo but I can't tell you how often I have blown people out with a "flashed" in Contagion Engine, Sundering Titan, or Spine of Ish Sah.
You may be right but at least with D Web you get all the style points, haha.
I run Ichor Wellspring in my Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas control deck as my primary draw engine. It works nicely with Phyrexia's Core and would be amazing with Transmuter. Now though you have me moving in a different direction, because Ensoul Artifact also happens to be awesome with Ichor Wellspring. I don't know if the list would see sit in this thread but I'll see where my brewing takes me.
@Narvuntien - The Revokers and Skites are there for combo. The 4th of each being in the board. I have also been toying with Leyline of Sanctity in the board, Grafdigger's Cage, Torpor Orb, and/or [card]Tormod's Crypt[/card}. Cage is what I am leaning towards for POD and Orb hurts me as well. Haven't played against Storm yet, but Skite and Revoker are good against Twin and Leyline could fill the Storm / Jund hate roles. Just need to do some more testing. I will also being testing the Familiars soon as well, to see how much more I can get out and how early I can constantly do it.
No Phyrexian Metamorph is a hold over from my Legacy MUD list. When you get to copy a Tarmogoyf or a Stone Forge Mystic (to get Batterskull / I know SFM isn't Modern legal but still) its amazing, and in this deck I sure it would be amazing to copy a Grand Architect or a Staff of Nin. But copying any of the threats in the deck would likely be win more. I could be wrong but I don't know if Meta deserves a main board slot.
Though I did just realize that you can do a Modern version of the Metalworker combo in Modern, using Grand Architect, Staff of Domination, and Pili-Pala. You could use Fabricate to help set it up too but then you probably have a different deck. For those not in the know, you make infinite mana, infinite life, draw your whole deck and tap their team down. You typically draw until you find a Blightsteel Colossus and Lightning Greaves, play, equip, swing, win.
I think you have to run some number of Spellskite main as this deck is soft to fast aggro / combo strategies game one. You also want to have various answers to a wide field and ways to recur them.
So thinking of that and taking my Legacy experience into consideration this is the list I came up with. It has answers to most of the field and has several different paths to victory; U beats, man land beats, infect, I even won a game using only Staff of Nin and recurring Contagion Engine with Master Transmuter.
If you haven't tried Master Transmuter yet, she is an all-star. Being able to recur Engine, Staff (to get rid of a 2 toughness creature), Spine of Ish Sah, and Sundering Titan is amazing. It also adds another protection type spell as you can return a targeted artifact to your hand and immediately put it back into play. And EOTing a Blightsteel Colossus is always a ton of fun. It does die to Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile but it dodges Abrupt Decay.
Vedalken Engineer seems to be under rated on this thread. People kill you mana dorks and while Chief Engineer is very good and a great blocker, it is still very reliant on you having a multitude of creatures on the field to be truly useful; where as VE produces 2 on its own. VE also taps for colored mana that can be used on artifact abilities, which is awesome for Master.
Phyrexia's Core is in there for some added protection from exile effects, since the deck runs both Academy Ruins and Buried Ruin for graveyard recursion. It also has some play against aggro strategies.
Faerie Conclave is my replacement for Mishra's factory, because the flying is a real plus and it gets pumps from Grand Architect. I have been able to close a few games out with them after board wipes.
Halimar Depths is for some deck manipulation. If I had more shuffle effects I could see going up on their number and reducing Conclave to 3. But I am not sure I want to run fetches as Bloodmoon then becomes a serious issue.
Both Depths and Conclave are in the deck as substitute one drops. Both are strong and nothing has felt wrong so far in testing.
Once I figure out my board I will post it as well.
My experience in Modern is not as vast as it is in Legacy so if I made any big mistakes let me know. I can say that I have not settled on a board yet, and need to test against POD some more but from the 20 odd games I have jammed on MTGO I think this Archetype has some real potential. If anyone has any questions in regards to card choices or anything let me know.
3 Chief Engineer
3 Etherium Sculptor
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spellskite
4 Vedalken Engineer
4 Grand Architect
4 Treasure Mage
4 Master Transmuter
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Batterskull
1 Contagion Engine
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
Lands:23
1 Academy Ruins
2 Buried Ruin
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Faerie Conclave
2 Halimar Depths
8 Island
2 Phyrexia's Core