I know you firmly don't believe in the Blue Splash, Weapon X, but I really think you should give this list or a list similar to it a shot. Myself and 15 other friends/MTG groupmates have done a few casual legacy tournaments the past few weeks and I have placed Top 4 each time, including one first place finish. I'm not saying it is the perfect deck or a Tier 1 deck, but it was competitive in a meta that includes Zoo, Vial Goblins, Combo Elves, Merfolk, UW Stoneblade, Manaless Dredge, UWMiracles, Ad Nauseum Tendrils, Slivers, Tezzerator, Zoo, and a few other guys that randomly switch their decks up and don't consistently play the same legacy deck (one played Zombies, another played an interesting WG Lifegain Angel deck, and I don't remember the others).
Things that I am considering...Cutting 2 lands for a full playset of Oblivion Ring, but I am leaning against that as this is a mana hungry deck and 24 lands I have historically found to be the number for a Rebel deck to make sure you are hitting you mana.
4 Cradles may seem like a lot, but you NEED to see a Cradle. Once you get a Cradle and a Training Grounds out it is essentially good game. Some may strongly disagree with 4 Cradles, but I started with 2 and kept upping the number the more I playtested.
I have 10 open slots in my legacy Vial Goblin deck, which is my strongest deck.
I am considering...
Goblin Guide
A 2/2 one drop with haste? Yes, please. Does the rest of the card even matter? Not really, especially because the odds are good a land won't be revealed. Hence, this is still an advantage...
Goblin Sharpshooter
Typically a 1-of in most Goblin decks. But are there stronger cards available?
Goblin Chieftain
Pumping up all of my Goblins by +1/+1, one or two of these and those Goblins get pretty huge.
Gempalm Incinerator
Spot removal and card draw? Pretty nice. This is considered a core card by some. Not me. Lackey, Piledriver, Ringleader, Matron, Warchief, and Siege Gang are the core.
I know there is a Rebels thread just a bit further below, but what I want to know is what all of you feel is the best shell to run a legacy Rebel deck in. I know you can't make a Tier 1 legacy deck out of Rebels (in all likelihood), but that you can make a competitive one.
(5) UW Rebelstill
- Allows Rebels to sneak through with Vial and Standstill while holding your opponent on lockdown
- Standstill, Brainstorm and/or Enlightened Tutor
(6) UW Trained Rebelstill
- Strong blue splash for counter suite, training grounds, and standstill all included in one deck
- Training Grounds, Standstill, Force of Will, etc.
Also, for those that pick a U/W build as the most competitive, aside from Tundra, what other dual lands are best to use?
Most of you know the story of Rebels by now. Great tutoring mechanic that sucks up a lot of mana and can slow the deck down against faster Legacy decks.
The way I see a rebel deck surviving in Legacy is
(1) basically speeding it up with as much early mana drop as possible
(2) use early game board control and defensive plays to survive while the rebel army and mana pool builds
(3) abuse the tutoring mechanic to utilize a toolbox approach and use the diverse abilities of the rebels to build an army capable of defending itself until the board is ready for a Mirror Entity drop and swing for huge damage.
I am basically looking to make this deck as fast as possible with plenty of mana sources for the rebels to use up. But, I need board control for the early game if the mana isn't flowing or recruiters aren't in play.
I see the logic in most of what you said but I must say the Whipcorder does deal with threats, and quite effectively. It is like having another creature with flying, and for one plains you can tap down any creature you want so long as it does not have Shroud or Pro White. Whipcorder isn't just a great defensive weapon, but offensive too--it clears out blockers that are otherwise very dangerous to your attacking Rebels.
Also, I think Oblivion Ring is better than Bound in Silence because it is much more versatile and is never a card you are unhappy to draw. But if I were to run Bound in Silence, I agree with you that two is optimal to reduce the chance of drawing it and strictly tutoring it.
Also Gaea's Cradle is basically an auto include. If Gaea's Cradle gets out, any well built Rebel deck should be nearly impossible to beat after Mirror Entity is recruited into the game.
Despite running some very nice Goblin, MUC, UGW Threshold and powerful decks of the like, my favorite deck to play ever since Masques came out has been my Rebel deck. It is just so much fun to play with all of the tricks that Rebels can do--I wish WOTC would make some more powerful Rebels to join the ranks of Rebel staples like Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Ramosian Sergeant, and Mirror Entity.
My goal is to make as competitive of a Rebel deck for legacy as I possibly can. So to start this off, I will share the deck I am currently running and also some changes I'm thinking of making and other cards I may include in the deck.
I know it may be kind of hard to build a truly competitive Rebel legacy deck, but I think it is definitely worth a shot.
This deck is a Rebel deck run in a Death and Taxes shell, I've used very similar builds to this before to some degree of success.
First, Umezawa's Jitte has earned its place among the most broken cards in recent memory, however it is a card that is immediately hated upon by opponents when it comes out and also whatever creature it is equipped to is nearly hated upon immediately without exception, and for the 4 mana that can typically mean more recruited Rebels being played.
For a Rebel deck there are a few things to remember...
- Rebel's strength rests in their ability to grow efficiently and recruit their friends and other spells (like Bound in Silence)
- There is ALWAYS a mana-sink when running a Rebel deck, it is nearly impossible to not be able to find something to spend mana on when you're running a Rebel deck.
- When running a Rebel deck mana acceleration wherever you can get it is typically useful
- Your opponents will typically direct their hate spells at your Rebels instead of you so protecting your Rebels should be priority over protecting you
Here are cards not currently in my build that may have some utility in a Rebel deck...
- In terms of other Rebel creatures meriting mention, Children of the Korlis stands out because of the defensive ability it brings. Defiant Vanguard and Knight of the Holy Nimbus are also worth a look.
- Ghostway (better than Parallax Wave when facing Wrath of God
- Rebuff the Wicked saves your key Rebels from nasty hate spells coming towards your Rebels.
- Bound in Silence good card, but I think too many people overuse the card because it does have such strong synergy with Rebels. The problem is simply that it is a horrible card to draw and hardcast since it is a 3cc Pacifism. Cool coming out of your library, not so cool hardcasting.
- Thousand-Year Elixir what isn't cool about recruiting with Rebels the turn you play them?
- Chrome Mox really fires up the Rebel engine quickly, but at the price of card disadvantage which is contrary to Rebel's strength which is card advantage. Definitely worth considering.
- Ancient Tomb a very good card, but for as often as you are tapping for mana, 2 life may be a dangerous price to pay too many times unless you're finally swining for the win.
- Akroma's Blessing mass Rebel protection, decent card.
- Mistveil Plains another card that may be overplayed. I like its ability, but the "comes into play tapped" catch is why I do not run it in my deck because I can't afford to be slowed down that much for a card whose ability I won't use unless I don't have any Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero in play.
- Shared Triumph nice card, but unless you are not running Mirror Entity (which is a sin) there is not much reason to run this card.
So any other suggestions any of you have to make Rebels Legacy competitive are more than welcome! I know it is a tough question I am asking, but I think it is definitely worth the effort to at least try.
For me, personally, as a college student I am on a budget with all of my decks except for my Rebel deck, this is the one deck I am not afraid to spend tons of cash on to make better because I love playing with it so much.
The only thing about this build is maybe to lose the 2 Umezawa's Jittes for 2 more Plains to make for a more consistent mana base because once the Jittes are out they are 1) hard to equip because your opponent will try hating it (the Jitte) out before you can equip or 2) hate out whatever creature you equip the Jitte to before it gains too many counters.
One card I think that may have a place in the sideboard is Orim's Chant as a 4-of, but I'm not sure what I would take out and how I would rearrange the sideboard for it.
For what you are looking for I would recommend that you buy 4 Mirror Entity off of the internet, it should NOT cost more than $12 for a playset and it is WELL worth it! Looking for speed as you are I would run this deck, as a matter of fact, I run this deck when I'm in metas with a lot of fast decks...
That is pricey, but it is a LOT of fun when your opponent sees you're playing Rebels and scoffs thinking they have an easy game. Then Mirror Entity is helping at least 4 other Rebels become at least 5/5 by turn 5 and is put into a stupor.
I hope the two builds I showed you were of some use to you!
Anyway, here is the list...
UW TRAINED REBELS:
CREATURES (14):
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Defiant Falcon
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2 Mirror Entity
1 Children of Korlis
1 Whipcorder
SPELLS (22):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Training Grounds
4 Counterspells
4 Force of Will
2 Oblivion Ring <--- I was running 2x Daze here, partly as fodder for pitch cards to feed Force of Will, but I found that having the Oblivion Rings were really handy to scoop up any threat that slipped through my counter suite or that I couldn't put a Swords to Plowshares on. Any thoughts on this are certainly welcome.
LANDS (24):
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Tundra
4 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
SIDEBOARD:
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Disenchant
2 Oblivion Ring
-----------------------------------
Everything below the dashed line is undecided for the sideboard. Everything above the dashed line is for sure on the sideboard.
-----------------------------------
2 Daze
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Aven Riftwatcher
1 Reveille Squad
Things that I am considering...Cutting 2 lands for a full playset of Oblivion Ring, but I am leaning against that as this is a mana hungry deck and 24 lands I have historically found to be the number for a Rebel deck to make sure you are hitting you mana.
4 Cradles may seem like a lot, but you NEED to see a Cradle. Once you get a Cradle and a Training Grounds out it is essentially good game. Some may strongly disagree with 4 Cradles, but I started with 2 and kept upping the number the more I playtested.
I have considered removing Aven Riftwatcher and Reveille Squad for basically another Children of Korlis and Whipcorder.
Bound in Silence may also deserve a place in the sideboard, but I have thus far opted for the Vanguard instead.
I'm sure there are other things I am missing at the moment, but everyone feel free to leave their thoughts.
I was thinking...
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gempalm Incinerator
The decklist is as follows...
CREATURES:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
ARTIFACTS:
4 AEther Vial
LANDS:
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
I am considering...
Goblin Guide
A 2/2 one drop with haste? Yes, please. Does the rest of the card even matter? Not really, especially because the odds are good a land won't be revealed. Hence, this is still an advantage...
Mogg Fanatic
Just a solid card.
Goblin Sharpshooter
Typically a 1-of in most Goblin decks. But are there stronger cards available?
Goblin Chieftain
Pumping up all of my Goblins by +1/+1, one or two of these and those Goblins get pretty huge.
Gempalm Incinerator
Spot removal and card draw? Pretty nice. This is considered a core card by some. Not me. Lackey, Piledriver, Ringleader, Matron, Warchief, and Siege Gang are the core.
I'm currently leaning towards this....
4 Goblin Guide
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Chieftain
I'm not sure how I feel about leaving Sharpshooter and Fanatic out. But I was wondering what any of you thought?
CREATURES:
4x Ramosian Sergeant
4x Defiant Falcon
4x Whipcorder
2x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2x Mirror Entity
SPELLS
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Training Grounds
4x Standstill
4x Counterspell
LANDS:
4x Tundra
4x Hallowed Fountain
4x Flooded Strand
4x Plains
4x Islands
SIDEBOARD:
4x Disenchant
4x Back to Basics
4x Honor of the Pure
3x Oblivion Ring
Any thoughts on how to improve this build are completely welcome.
A few things I'm considering...Aether Vial or not? Brainstorm vs Enlightened Tutor? Rune Snag or Mana Leak instead of Counterspell??
How competitive does this build look? Any obvious tweaks? Things to get rid of or things to add in?
Obvious includes in this are...Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero, Mirror Entity, Ramosian Sergeant, Defiant Falcon, and Whipcorder
So which of the following shells for a Legacy Rebel deck do you think is the most competitive?
(1) Mono-White Aggro
- Lots of mana ramp
- Gaea's Cradle, Chrome Mox, Serra's Sanctum, Ancient Tomb, Mox Diamond, Honor of the Pure etc.
(2) Mono-White Control
- White board control cards and also cards preventing opponents from even playing spells
- Orim's Chant, Silence, Bound in Silence, Disenchant, Oblivion Ring, etc.
(3) UW Control
- strong counter suite
- Force of Will, Counterspell, Mana Leak, Rune Snag, etc.
- Card draw engine is sort of built in already with the Rebel tutor mechanic. But can be enhanced by Brainstorm, Impulse, etc.
(4) UW Trained Rebels
- Great synergy with the Rebel Tutor Mechanic
- Training Grounds + Enlightened Tutor and/or Brainstorm...obviously if you're splashing blue you almost need to include FoW and Counterspell as well...
(5) UW Rebelstill
- Allows Rebels to sneak through with Vial and Standstill while holding your opponent on lockdown
- Standstill, Brainstorm and/or Enlightened Tutor
(6) UW Trained Rebelstill
- Strong blue splash for counter suite, training grounds, and standstill all included in one deck
- Training Grounds, Standstill, Force of Will, etc.
Also, for those that pick a U/W build as the most competitive, aside from Tundra, what other dual lands are best to use?
10 Plains
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Karakas
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Creatures (20):
4 Ramosian Sergeant
4 Defiant Falcon
2 Whipcorder
2 Mirror Entity
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Reveille Squad
1 Ballista Squad
1 Children of Korlis
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Task Force
1 Outrider en-Kor
4 Chrome Mox
4 AEther Vial
Enchantments (8):
4 Bound in Silence
4 Oblivion Ring
Instants (4):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Disenchant
4 Orim's Chant
1 Thermal Glider
1 Nightwind Glider
1 Lawbringer
1 Lightbringer
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Dunerider Outlaw
1 Aven Riftwatcher
Most of you know the story of Rebels by now. Great tutoring mechanic that sucks up a lot of mana and can slow the deck down against faster Legacy decks.
The way I see a rebel deck surviving in Legacy is
(1) basically speeding it up with as much early mana drop as possible
(2) use early game board control and defensive plays to survive while the rebel army and mana pool builds
(3) abuse the tutoring mechanic to utilize a toolbox approach and use the diverse abilities of the rebels to build an army capable of defending itself until the board is ready for a Mirror Entity drop and swing for huge damage.
I am basically looking to make this deck as fast as possible with plenty of mana sources for the rebels to use up. But, I need board control for the early game if the mana isn't flowing or recruiters aren't in play.
A few cards I'm considering in the deck...
Thran Turbine
Heartstone
Other suggestions are always welcome with regards to making this deck better! (read: faster and more aggressive)
22x Island
2x Academy Ruins
1x Urza's Factory
Creatures: 3
2x Morphling
1x Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Spells: 32
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Mana Leak
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Back to Basics
4x Propaganda
4x Echoing Truth
3x Energy Flux
I'm only have two questions floating in my head at this point...
1) Whether I should be playing Nevinyrral's Disk instead of Powder Keg or a combination of both and/or if I should main deck Echoing Truth...
2) Whether Ancestral Vision should have a place in the deck or maybe even Impulse. But I'm pretty sure I am satisfied with Fact or Fiction, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top as my draw engines.
What do you think?
Also, I think Oblivion Ring is better than Bound in Silence because it is much more versatile and is never a card you are unhappy to draw. But if I were to run Bound in Silence, I agree with you that two is optimal to reduce the chance of drawing it and strictly tutoring it.
Also Gaea's Cradle is basically an auto include. If Gaea's Cradle gets out, any well built Rebel deck should be nearly impossible to beat after Mirror Entity is recruited into the game.
My goal is to make as competitive of a Rebel deck for legacy as I possibly can. So to start this off, I will share the deck I am currently running and also some changes I'm thinking of making and other cards I may include in the deck.
I know it may be kind of hard to build a truly competitive Rebel legacy deck, but I think it is definitely worth a shot.
13x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
2x Gaea's Cradle
Creatures: 22
4x Ramosian Sergeant
4x Defiant Falcon
4x Whipcorder
4x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
4x Aven Riftwatcher
2x Mirror Entity
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Disenchant
4x Runed Halo
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Parallax Wave
First, Umezawa's Jitte has earned its place among the most broken cards in recent memory, however it is a card that is immediately hated upon by opponents when it comes out and also whatever creature it is equipped to is nearly hated upon immediately without exception, and for the 4 mana that can typically mean more recruited Rebels being played.
For a Rebel deck there are a few things to remember...
- Rebel's strength rests in their ability to grow efficiently and recruit their friends and other spells (like Bound in Silence)
- There is ALWAYS a mana-sink when running a Rebel deck, it is nearly impossible to not be able to find something to spend mana on when you're running a Rebel deck.
- When running a Rebel deck mana acceleration wherever you can get it is typically useful
- Your opponents will typically direct their hate spells at your Rebels instead of you so protecting your Rebels should be priority over protecting you
Here are cards not currently in my build that may have some utility in a Rebel deck...
- In terms of other Rebel creatures meriting mention, Children of the Korlis stands out because of the defensive ability it brings. Defiant Vanguard and Knight of the Holy Nimbus are also worth a look.
- Ghostway (better than Parallax Wave when facing Wrath of God
- Rebuff the Wicked saves your key Rebels from nasty hate spells coming towards your Rebels.
- Bound in Silence good card, but I think too many people overuse the card because it does have such strong synergy with Rebels. The problem is simply that it is a horrible card to draw and hardcast since it is a 3cc Pacifism. Cool coming out of your library, not so cool hardcasting.
- Thousand-Year Elixir what isn't cool about recruiting with Rebels the turn you play them?
- Chrome Mox really fires up the Rebel engine quickly, but at the price of card disadvantage which is contrary to Rebel's strength which is card advantage. Definitely worth considering.
- Ancient Tomb a very good card, but for as often as you are tapping for mana, 2 life may be a dangerous price to pay too many times unless you're finally swining for the win.
- Akroma's Blessing mass Rebel protection, decent card.
- Mistveil Plains another card that may be overplayed. I like its ability, but the "comes into play tapped" catch is why I do not run it in my deck because I can't afford to be slowed down that much for a card whose ability I won't use unless I don't have any Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero in play.
- Shared Triumph nice card, but unless you are not running Mirror Entity (which is a sin) there is not much reason to run this card.
So any other suggestions any of you have to make Rebels Legacy competitive are more than welcome! I know it is a tough question I am asking, but I think it is definitely worth the effort to at least try.
For me, personally, as a college student I am on a budget with all of my decks except for my Rebel deck, this is the one deck I am not afraid to spend tons of cash on to make better because I love playing with it so much.
13x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
2x Gaea's Cradle
Creatures: 22
4x Ramosian Sergeant
4x Defiant Falcon
4x Whipcorder
4x Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2x Mirror Entity
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Oblivion Ring
4x Disenchant
4x Runed Halo
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Parallax Wave
The only thing about this build is maybe to lose the 2 Umezawa's Jittes for 2 more Plains to make for a more consistent mana base because once the Jittes are out they are 1) hard to equip because your opponent will try hating it (the Jitte) out before you can equip or 2) hate out whatever creature you equip the Jitte to before it gains too many counters.
One card I think that may have a place in the sideboard is Orim's Chant as a 4-of, but I'm not sure what I would take out and how I would rearrange the sideboard for it.
Here is the Rebel deck I currently run...
21x Plains
1x Karakas
2x Gaea's Cradle
Creatures: 22
4x Ramosian Sergeant
4x Defiant Falcon
4x Whipcorder
4x Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2x Mirror Entity
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Oblivion Ring
For what you are looking for I would recommend that you buy 4 Mirror Entity off of the internet, it should NOT cost more than $12 for a playset and it is WELL worth it! Looking for speed as you are I would run this deck, as a matter of fact, I run this deck when I'm in metas with a lot of fast decks...
19x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Gaea's Cradle
4x Chrome Mox
4x Ramosian Sergeant
4x Defiant Falcon
4x Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
4x Mirror Entity
4x Children of Korlis
4x Whipcorder
4x Aven Riftwatcher
2x Defiant Vanguard
4x Aether Vial
That is pricey, but it is a LOT of fun when your opponent sees you're playing Rebels and scoffs thinking they have an easy game. Then Mirror Entity is helping at least 4 other Rebels become at least 5/5 by turn 5 and is put into a stupor.
I hope the two builds I showed you were of some use to you!