i went second with this deck...went 3-0-2 in the elims and loosing in the finals to a cruel control deck, which is a real problem...jhessian infiltrator is a power card against walls, giving me wins in two matches...still having mana screws in some matches but i think changing the borderposts to the cipt tri-lands will be a big change, cause there are times i'd mulled because having one borderpost and a seaside citadel...i think theres a alot of room for improvement...thank you guys for the comments and replys, really helped me a lot in setting up this deck...:D
thank you very much sir...will try to play test what you suggested...great reply...:D..how bout my mana base sir?...im thinking putting in 2 rupture spire...and mroe bant panoramas...what you think?
please comment...i went 2-0-2 with this deck FNM and tourna both block shards of alara...late game i usually die a slow death...jund cascade eats all early threats and kills late...i need late game cards...also need advices on mainboards and sideboards...thanks...:D
This deck is incredibly mana hungry, and missing a land drop sucks so bad. I've been running 25, but I can see going up to 26 and even 27, since I lost 2 games at Regionals due to mana screw (and of course they were rounds 7 and 9, costing me the top 8 and prizes, respectively). You can also ask Johm000 about getting mana screwed...
your right sir...i had my experience with being mana screwed too...but i was running 24 lands...and ill make it 25, but thats my limit...:D
I would like to know thoughts on an optimal sideboard which can take on the whole field at the moment. There's no doubt than this deck is very strong, but I feel it's important to get the sideboard right otherwise, if there's an archetype you don't compensate for in your sideboard, you could end up losing to it all day in a tournament. For this, assume that I'm playing the 4x Sculler + Persist package MD version (like the ones which t8'ed at GP Barcelona)
Burrenton Forge Tender: IMO Pretty much the best choice against both RDW variants, Jund Aggro and even decks like Mana-Ramp which rely a bit on red based sweepers. Forge-Tender equates to roughly "Gain 10 life" in the burn matchup and the fact that he can come out on t1 makes him even better. He can even attack and be a huge wincon vs the red-based decks. I would definitely play this card over Mark of Asylum.
Thoughtseize: Thoughtseize solves a lot of problems. When you have only 15 slots to solve as many problems as possible, I would say using 3 or 4 of them on this is definitely worth it. It helps in so many matchups - Basically everything but aggro that is faster than you (and it's not amazing vs Boat Brew, Esperlark or Elves). But you knew that anyway.
Wrath of God: I don't think I need to explain this. Just don't side it in where your ability to overwhelm with tokens or disrupt win you the game anyway (matchups like Merfolk and Ramp)
Puppeteer Clique: I'm loving this card a bit less than I first did. Being able to CA off your opp's graveyard and persist is obviously good - if you can do both - but unless you take out CGR's your deck ends up being slow and clogged up with 5 drops. I suppose if you run Terrors over Path to Exile as removal, this guy gets a little better, but I think the matchups you want him in are won with other cards like Thoughtseize.
Identity Crisis/Head Games: As powerful as these cards look in the control matchup, Old Skool control decks just don't see enough play to justify these cards really. Its true that they can absolutely wreck Esper Lark or Control but you can probably do enough damage with Thoughtseize which helps in a greater diversity of matchups - and remember you only have 15 slots so chose wisely.
Aura of Silence: The Aura seems most relevant against the Cascade Swans matchup and the three mana spent to play this can quite potentially buy you enough time to aggro their face in with a bunch of tokens. For those Swans decks playing Deny Reality to try and get rid of Halo's and Needles in order to Combo, Silence actually works better than both! Seeing as the cascaded Assualt (hopefully not Swans) comes into play first, then you can watch them pay 2 more for the Assult and nuke the Assault before Deny Reality happens.
It can also assist you in the Fog Matchup IF you drop it early. However it doesn't seem very relevant in any other matchup. Ok, Loxodon Warhammer/Behemoth Sledge is not good for you but would you really side this in for their misers hammer/sledge?
Wispmare: This seems a bit less good than Aura in the Swans matchup as the Assault has to be on the table for you to use this card, and they could always play Swans before Assault, in which case it becomes more of a question of whether you have the terror/path to respond with. However Wispmare is more relevant in the mirror giving you a guy to kill your opponent's anthem/blossom, turn on your Windbrisk and/or block. However, it's extremely annoying to have not much gas other than Wispmare in your hand where you're the only player with enchantments on the table which happen to be keeping you in the game.
Runed Halo: This is mostly for Swans Combo, but can also help against any deck that uses a particular threat. For decks running big spells like Cruel Ultimatum, Banefire, Demigod of Revenge, Chaotic Backlash, Sanity Grinding this card can be good. It helps you beat random decks and also gives you a bit of an out vs Combo decks. However remember that in games 2 and 3 the Swans Player can still use the Assault to draw into an effect to get rid of the Halo as it doesn't hamper their ability to use Assault on the Swans.
Pithing Needle: This is probably the best answer to Swan-Assault as it stops them using the Assault in any way until they draw/cascade into an effect to get rid of the needle, which may not be at their disposal straight away. Needle can also be used in a similar way to Halo against random decks which use powerful cards with Activated Abilities to win, like Obelisk of Alara, Chameleon Colossus, Planeswalkers, Manlands.
Underworld Dreams: I can't see myself seriously devoting SB slots to this card but I think it obviously really messes up Swans/Fog if they can't sort it out immediately. It is a bit BBB though! It also doesn't help in any other matchup.
Elspeth, Knight Errant: Elspeth strikes me as a generically quite broken card, but I just can't think of a matchup where she would be more useful than either Wrath of God, Burrenton Forge Tender or Thoughtseize, especially now that Maelstrom Pulse exists.
Ancilliary Removal: This obviously depends on your Maindeck. At the moment I'm finding Path to Exile to be better in general so I'm using that, but this may change. I also run a 4th ZP in the SB because the Mirror depends a lot on who can play more ZP's/Ajani's than the other! I think devoting 1 or 2 slots to extra removal is ok, but you don't want to compromise the rest of your sideboard by running too many.
Oblivion Ring: I like the idea of this card as it seems like a relevant card to use in a lot of matchups and can answer pretty much any threat you care about. As before, vs Swans, what you want to Trump with O-ring has to already be on the table, but you can trump either Swan or Assault whereas Wispmare, Aura, Needle and Halo only work on one of the two. You can also use this card in matchups like Fog, Ramp, Doran/Bant and other random decks which - on balance - unlikely to have an answer to O-Ring. I'm not sure if I'd use it in the Mirror as aggressive thwarting like Thoughtseize and more Persecution end up being a bit more effective than answering with Oblivion Ring.
Taking all this into account, if I were going to an event and expecting a diverse field and wanting to be prepared for every matchup I would probably take this Sideboard:
At least that's what I ran the last few of times I played with it. I qualified for Nationals with it and went undefeated at FNM a couple of times just before I did, which isn't groundbreaking but its quite similar to one of the lists that ended up t8ing at Barcelona. I might swap the Path's for Terrors, we'll see. Thoughtseize has always been a really excellent card for me in so many matchups, you might be right with 3, but from my experience, 4 has served well. What matchup will Crisis help in which Thoughtseize doesn't already?
27 lands?...im not really sure about that...but you cant really deny results...:D...congrats...
went 1-0-3 with this list, after the third loss i dropped out and we played poker...hehe
match1: G/W tokens
game1: i think i mulled for six, with him playing first...he curves out just perfect and me defending...after attacking with three creatures flips an overrun from windbrisk and just clears my board...with anthem and liege pumping his board, im steam rolled...
game2: i mulled for five, stuck with just three mana until turn 5 i think and getting a sanctum, again he curves out just perfectly...and i was overwhelmed by his board...
game1: he surprised me with him having ZP also and clears my tokens, sculls my anthem and he casts more creatures, with ajani and anthem on his side, i just hold on for nothing, defending until the end cause i was drawing lands for several turns...
game2: i cast an early blossom, and he purges it, and he casts it himself, i play meadowgrains but he plays another anthem and more creatures, and got me to defending again, he still plays more creatures and i just kept on drawing lands again, just waiting to draw anything...with cloudgoat ranger under my heights...
-4 sculler, -1 finks, +3 wrath, +2 wispmare
0-0-2
match3: somthing with plainswalkers,hehe
game1: he mulls to five i think keeping 1 land...he gets to two lands when i got him for lethal damage, with meadowgrains, finks, spirits and faes...with anthem pumping...
game2: again he mulls for 5...all i coud remeber is him casting vengeant and me killing it...then i cast bitterblossom with lots of tokens...i cast anthem and he fallouts my board, but my meadowgrain survives with an goldsmane counter and with anthem whish is enough to finish him off...
game1: i mull for five and he keeps...he manages to get my life to 5...he just keep on coming...and i kept on defending with a cloudgoat ranger and a goldmane on my two windbrisks...finks kept my life decent and i cast bitterblossom...when i attacked with three creatures out goes my rangers and goldmane...with him having only a rhox war monk in play...he concedes...
game2: i draw a wrath on my hand...with finks and meadowgrain...i wrath him twice, with my finks keeping in play...but he just kept on coming with rhox war monk, knight of the new alara and seigil paladin...i concede as i was drawing lands again for several turns...
game3: with no time left, only 5 turns, he manages to hit me for 14 on the last turn for a lethal damage...with rafiq, seigil paladin and knight of the new alara...i wrath him too soon...which was after i realized was a big error on my part...i hide a bitterblossom and a goldmane on my heghts with three tokens in play...i block a siegel paladin thinking that my hidden cards were not good, and wrath him...
-3 scullers, +3 wrath
1-0-3
after this i dropped out and we played poker,hehe...all in all it was an unlucky day i think for me with game 1 and 2 having bad draws...still need more playing time with the SBs because i have little to no experience with it...
estatiktik: You should definately be running 4 Anthems. I tried 3 and that failed hard. It may seem like 4 is overkill but you can never have enough global pump unless of course they're running Maelstrom Pulse.
im debating that still, whether to take out a finks or a ranger for may anthem...any thoughts?...
@devils advocate
24 lands is fine, its like the mana base for a control deck...mutavaults are really good, for activating heights if you have less creatures and they are great with 5cc...and scullers are good for game 1s in some match ups and boarded out, but not with 5ccs and other decks that needs to set up...:)
@logicx
i always play sculler first, above any other two drops...better a little safe than sorry...:D
Reason I advocate forge tender is because it isn't a dead draw in multiples; Mark of Asylum is.
Ko2 is better because he allows you to run one less land and path to exile, which is a huge upgrade to Terror. That's what makes him better than KoM.
i agree on the dead draw on multiples, as i have experience in a match in RB, and he really cant do anything when its on the board(the reason why im keeping one), and having another one in hand...
im still not convinced with Ko2 being better...maybe needs more play testing on my side...:)...thank you so much for the comment irebel...really appreciate it...
Anyway, I would lose the KoW for either Redcap or Ko2, play more finks (anything less than 4 is wrong IMO).
Mark of Asylum should be forge-tenders and Stillmoon Cavalier is bad.
thanks...i think i would change the stillmoon cavalier to thoughtseize...i have trouble match up against decks who needs to set up...i like mark of asylum against those fallouts and decks with fire power...2 asylum and 2 forge tenders are fine with me...thank you...
and yeah ill try playing 4 finks...i love my meadowgrains and how they play, im not into the white orchid because late game its a dead card IMO...any thoughts?
went 3 wins 1 loss with this list...loosing only to an artifact set-up deck...i think i would had a better chance with him if i had thoughtseize as board, and had a better luck drawing game 1 i mull for 5 and game 2 got mana screwed for 2 lands until the 6th turn, and it was too late him setting up...other than that other games were a walk in the park...mark of asylum and finks did its job against RB...
will have to get thoughtseize against those set up decks...any suggestions and comments are welcomed...
3 Dauntless Escort
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Rafiq the Many
4 Jhessian Infiltrator
3 Quasali Pridemage
4 Battlegrace Angel
Spells
2 Finest Hour
3 Path to Exile
2 Bant Charm
1 Behemoth Sledge
2 Elspeth Knight Errant
1 Martial Coup
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Bant Panorama
2 Wildfield Borderpost ( Jungle Shrine would be better)
2 Fieldmist Borderpost (Arcane Sanctum would be better)
6 Forest
4 Plains
4 Islands
3 celestial Purge
1 Mark of Asylum
3 Hindering Light
1 Martial Coup
1 Bant Charm
2 Valeron Outlander
2 Vedalken Outlander
2 Oblivion Ring
i went second with this deck...went 3-0-2 in the elims and loosing in the finals to a cruel control deck, which is a real problem...jhessian infiltrator is a power card against walls, giving me wins in two matches...still having mana screws in some matches but i think changing the borderposts to the cipt tri-lands will be a big change, cause there are times i'd mulled because having one borderpost and a seaside citadel...i think theres a alot of room for improvement...thank you guys for the comments and replys, really helped me a lot in setting up this deck...:D
thank you very much sir...will try to play test what you suggested...great reply...:D..how bout my mana base sir?...im thinking putting in 2 rupture spire...and mroe bant panoramas...what you think?
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
3 Rafiq the Many
2 Knight of the New Alara
4 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Quasali Pridemage
4 Path to Exile
4 Bant Charm
1 Behemoth Sledge
4 Seaside Citadel
2 Bant Panorama
7 Forest
7 Plains
4 Islands
please comment...i went 2-0-2 with this deck FNM and tourna both block shards of alara...late game i usually die a slow death...jund cascade eats all early threats and kills late...i need late game cards...also need advices on mainboards and sideboards...thanks...:D
your right sir...i had my experience with being mana screwed too...but i was running 24 lands...and ill make it 25, but thats my limit...:D
great articl vince...but i would like to know also what to board out when you board in your sideboard...thank you...
27 lands?...im not really sure about that...but you cant really deny results...:D...congrats...
4 Knight of the Meadowgrain
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bitterblossom
3 Path To Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Spectral Procession
4 Glorious Anthem
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
3 Arcane Sanctum
2 Mutavault
4 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
4 Plains
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
1 Mark of Asylum
2 Thoughtseize
2 Celestial Purge
2 Identity Crisis
2 Wispmare
went 1-0-3 with this list, after the third loss i dropped out and we played poker...hehe
match1: G/W tokens
game1: i think i mulled for six, with him playing first...he curves out just perfect and me defending...after attacking with three creatures flips an overrun from windbrisk and just clears my board...with anthem and liege pumping his board, im steam rolled...
game2: i mulled for five, stuck with just three mana until turn 5 i think and getting a sanctum, again he curves out just perfectly...and i was overwhelmed by his board...
-4 tidehallow sculler, -1 ZP, +3 wrath, 2 wispmare
0-0-1
match2: mirror
game1: he surprised me with him having ZP also and clears my tokens, sculls my anthem and he casts more creatures, with ajani and anthem on his side, i just hold on for nothing, defending until the end cause i was drawing lands for several turns...
game2: i cast an early blossom, and he purges it, and he casts it himself, i play meadowgrains but he plays another anthem and more creatures, and got me to defending again, he still plays more creatures and i just kept on drawing lands again, just waiting to draw anything...with cloudgoat ranger under my heights...
-4 sculler, -1 finks, +3 wrath, +2 wispmare
0-0-2
match3: somthing with plainswalkers,hehe
game1: he mulls to five i think keeping 1 land...he gets to two lands when i got him for lethal damage, with meadowgrains, finks, spirits and faes...with anthem pumping...
game2: again he mulls for 5...all i coud remeber is him casting vengeant and me killing it...then i cast bitterblossom with lots of tokens...i cast anthem and he fallouts my board, but my meadowgrain survives with an goldsmane counter and with anthem whish is enough to finish him off...
-1 finks, -1 anthem, -1 path, - 1 ZP, +2 identity crisis, +2 thoughtseize
1-0-2
match4: Bant Aggro
game1: i mull for five and he keeps...he manages to get my life to 5...he just keep on coming...and i kept on defending with a cloudgoat ranger and a goldmane on my two windbrisks...finks kept my life decent and i cast bitterblossom...when i attacked with three creatures out goes my rangers and goldmane...with him having only a rhox war monk in play...he concedes...
game2: i draw a wrath on my hand...with finks and meadowgrain...i wrath him twice, with my finks keeping in play...but he just kept on coming with rhox war monk, knight of the new alara and seigil paladin...i concede as i was drawing lands again for several turns...
game3: with no time left, only 5 turns, he manages to hit me for 14 on the last turn for a lethal damage...with rafiq, seigil paladin and knight of the new alara...i wrath him too soon...which was after i realized was a big error on my part...i hide a bitterblossom and a goldmane on my heghts with three tokens in play...i block a siegel paladin thinking that my hidden cards were not good, and wrath him...
-3 scullers, +3 wrath
1-0-3
after this i dropped out and we played poker,hehe...all in all it was an unlucky day i think for me with game 1 and 2 having bad draws...still need more playing time with the SBs because i have little to no experience with it...
4 Knight of the Meadowgrain
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bitterblossom
3 Path To Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Spectral Procession
4 Glorious Anthem
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
3 Arcane Sanctum
2 Mutavault
4 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
4 Plains
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
1 Mark of Asylum
2 Thoughtseize
2 Celestial Purge
2 Identity Crisis
2 Wispmare
help i dont know what to keep 4 pieces the glorious anthem or my path to exile or my kitchen finks...:(
im debating that still, whether to take out a finks or a ranger for may anthem...any thoughts?...
@devils advocate
24 lands is fine, its like the mana base for a control deck...mutavaults are really good, for activating heights if you have less creatures and they are great with 5cc...and scullers are good for game 1s in some match ups and boarded out, but not with 5ccs and other decks that needs to set up...:)
@logicx
i always play sculler first, above any other two drops...better a little safe than sorry...:D
i agree on the dead draw on multiples, as i have experience in a match in RB, and he really cant do anything when its on the board(the reason why im keeping one), and having another one in hand...
im still not convinced with Ko2 being better...maybe needs more play testing on my side...:)...thank you so much for the comment irebel...really appreciate it...
4 Knight of the Meadowgrain
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bitterblossom
3 Path To Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Spectral Procession
3 Glorious Anthem
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
3 Arcane Sanctum
2 Mutavault
4 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
4 Plains
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
1 Mark of Asylum
2 Thoughtseize
2 Celestial Purge
2 Identity Crisis
2 Wispmare
@logicx
for me because scullers can be killed and can return the card that you took, while thoughtseize can be cast first turn and is a sure discard...:D
thanks...i think i would change the stillmoon cavalier to thoughtseize...i have trouble match up against decks who needs to set up...i like mark of asylum against those fallouts and decks with fire power...2 asylum and 2 forge tenders are fine with me...thank you...
and yeah ill try playing 4 finks...i love my meadowgrains and how they play, im not into the white orchid because late game its a dead card IMO...any thoughts?
4 Knight of the Meadowgrain
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bitterblossom
3 Path To Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Spectral Procession
3 Glorious Anthem
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
3 Arcane Sanctum
2 Mutavault
4 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
4 Plains
2 Burrenton Forge Tender
2 Mark of Asylum
2 Thoughtseize
2 Celestial Purge
2 Identity Crisis
2 Wispmare
4 Knight of the Meadowgrain
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Cloudgoat Ranger
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bitterblossom
4 Path To Exile
3 Zealous Persecution
4 Spectral Procession
4 Glorious Anthem
2 Caves of Koilos
4 Fetid Heath
3 Arcane Sanctum
2 Mutavault
4 Windbrisk Heights
1 Swamp
4 Plains
2 Burrenton Forge Tender
2 Mark of Asylum
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
2 Celestial Purge
2 Identity Crisis
2 Wispmare
went 3 wins 1 loss with this list...loosing only to an artifact set-up deck...i think i would had a better chance with him if i had thoughtseize as board, and had a better luck drawing game 1 i mull for 5 and game 2 got mana screwed for 2 lands until the 6th turn, and it was too late him setting up...other than that other games were a walk in the park...mark of asylum and finks did its job against RB...
will have to get thoughtseize against those set up decks...any suggestions and comments are welcomed...