MTG Salvation

Quote from The Great Lobachevsky »

Quote from Caranthir »

You call making Goldberry thick when she is explicitly sung about being "slender as a willow-wand" a "cosmetic aspect"?

Yes. Because it has to do with her appearance, and only her appearance. No aspect of her personality was altered from the books, nor any dialog.

Okay, I will try it once more and this time more slowly...

There is a song, yes? A song sung by Tom Bombadil.

The song has a very clear lyrical description of her appearance, and no, the words are not "puffy as a morning cloud".

If you do not see the problem with them wiping their butts with the source and completely inverting it, I do.

Heck, if they really needed to force a chubby female character there, why not choose e.g. Ioreth, that has virtually zero description in the books save for being old, and not a fething descriptive song.

Quote from lookingupanddown »

Quote from The Great Lobachevsky »

I wonder why the Peter Jackson movies are widely beloved, despite cutting out or changing entire chunks of the story, while this set is being so vehemently criticized for changing around a few cosmetic aspects while keeping very true to the story.

Because the Peter Jackson films were the only adaptations to have a lasting impact. To a lot of modern LotR fans, the films were their first encounter with the story. That's not to say the films don't have lasting power on their own: they're always in the discussion for some of the best films of all time. However, many people think any adaptation afterwards must follow the films to the letter, and any deviation means the entire thing is forfeit.

The last sentence is an oversimplification. I have my own gripes with the film adaptation, as well as this set. All I say is that Peter Jackson treated the original with far more respect to the source material than those who made this set. But again, it is all caused by the shift in the society since the movies were made, resulting in changes in the name of "equal representation". If these were made today, I would not be surprised it to look more like the infamous Rings of Power.

It is similar to how they butchered The Watch - Sibyl Ramkin is basically a black streetwise Xena/Van Helsing, Cheery is a badly drag queen-looking transperson, Havelock Vetinari is a ****ing non-binary granny, even Dr. Cruces is a woman. Angua looks like a post-apo scrawny punk, but at least really female.
And then there are some less inportant characters, like Vimes, eh...? Carrot is far from the impressive "giant" from the books. Probably not to accidentaly overshadow the weak female heroes, well...?

It is all so forced so it is utterly ridiculous.

Quote from The Great Lobachevsky »

I wonder why the Peter Jackson movies are widely beloved, despite cutting out or changing entire chunks of the story, while this set is being so vehemently criticized for changing around a few cosmetic aspects while keeping very true to the story.

You call making Goldberry thick when she is explicitly sung about being "slender as a willow-wand" a "cosmetic aspect"?

No wonder they omitted the flavortext from her card, because even the most thick-headed people would probably spot the discrepancy.

And as someone said - the movies maybe omitted parts of the story, but made the rest absolutely breathtaking. For example, the Rohirrim arrival to Pelennor Fields and the charge - the "Arise, arise, riders of Théoden!" scene remains one of the best movie scenes EVER for me.

Yes, there were some WTF parts, like Aragorn singing a love song to Arwen in the Extended edition, or Faramir being a bit Boromir-like, wanting to force Frodo to go to Gondor and not the super-good boy scout

Also, Bernard Hill's Théoden is (not only in that scene) a total homerun, not this old Jamaican rasta/Battlefield Earth parody from this set. In short, this set makes a travesty of some of the elements, whereas the movies omitted some, but kept the rest unchanged and/or even improved on the books by the motion picture representation.

Quote from Sorrowseer »

Goldberry be dummy thicc.

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Song_to_Goldberry

O slender as a willow-want! O clearer than clear water!
O reed by the living pool! Fair river-daughter!
O spring-time and summer-time, and spring again after!
O wind on the waterfall, and the leaves’ laughter!

Okay, I might even understand making over half of the characters black... I can endure helm-less Eowyn or Andúril in magical fire....but this outright sh*tting on the source material for no reason, completely inverting it, is really beyond my understanding.

Quote from Mystic_X »

Quote from Caranthir »

Yeah,she totally rode like this without a helmet during the battle.... *facepalm*

She's hardcore

I don't even ride my bike without a helmet!

My comment aims on the fact that she removed her helmet to reveal she is a woman just moments before she slew the Witch-King, as a big plot moment, at the climax of the battle.

They are basically wiping their bottoms with the source material.

Quote from Gizlivadi »

Just a reminder that, right now, you can go play this game which is entirely devoted to LOTR (so no Gandalf fighting Megatron fighting Teferi) with art by this same artist, with the exception that it respects the original source material. And before you say it, it can be played solo/co-op, so no need for a "local meta".

Excellent point.

Yeah,she totally rode like this without a helmet during the battle.... *facepalm*

Quote from ThyLordQ »

EDIT: Also, yeah, being an ardent anti-racist does not preclude you from having racist ideas or actions. It's not a binary state, it's a methodology you have to work at. It's an examination of the actions you take, the thoughts you think, and why you think them.

...and exactly this is why I mostly refrain from commenting the issue. This is not worth my time. I have made myself clear already.

Quote from ThyLordQ »

Quote from Caranthir »

And it is not like Tolkien's world did not have other skin colors in it...the Easterlings, the Umbar corsairs, the Haradrim...

The minions of Sauron, the pirates who tried to join Sauron, and the minions of Sauron?

You see the problem there, right?

EDIT: Also, I think you might to take another look at Boromir and Faramir.

I see the problem. The old professor was racist (despite being an ardent anti-racist) and it is up to us to "improve" his work to "fit" into the 21th century. Right?c

Faramir on Reprieve is apparently darker-skinned than on the Prince of Ithilien, the curly hair and facial features are also clear. His portrayal is a bit inconsistent.

Boromir is his brother, and on both cards, Bitter Demise and Boromir, Warden of the Tower, is also darker.

You might like to have your eyes checked.

Quote from lookingupanddown »

As for LotR, I get that some people want a particular level of textual faithfulness, but people seem to be hyper focused on a specific type of change. There's an art where Anduril literally has flames spewing out of it and no one cares because the guy that's holding it had his opacity turned up a bit. Same thing with Eowyn having removed her helmet before the scene where she dramatically removes her helmet.

Because it is the most apparent and understandable even to the people who are not deeply invested fans.

Don't get me wrong, I dislika all these things as well (probably most of all the prominent displays of magic, that Tolkien purposefully avoided. But the places you can discuss this on this level are scarce.

Quote from kirin4969 »

Quote from Caranthir »

Okay. This is officially Tales of Middle-Jamuraa.

I could grudginly accept Aragorn, but virtually ALL the human characters are swapped.

We are lucky that the Wizards, Tom Bombadil, and part of the hobbits were left alone.

totally agree. I hate that mindset that we have to shut up and be called racists if we complain about such a disrespectful treatment of source material. I’m glad this issue went public into the mainstream.

As I wrote elsewhere:

I accept what they decided to do with the source, but nobody on Earth can force me to like it.

And I very much want to be able to say it freely without being called a racist.

It is really becoming surreal. The only human legendary characters who keep their fair skin are Ioreth and Bree denizens - Bill Ferny and Butterbur.

For Éomer, it is not disinguishable from what we have. Otberwise:

Boromir
Faramir
(= probably also Denethor)
Imrahil
Aragorn
Théoden
Éowyn...

Virtually every important character from Gondor and Rohan. It looks like this is a default for the humans in this version of Middle-Earth...

And it is not like Tolkien's world did not have other skin colors in it...the Easterlings, the Umbar corsairs, the Haradrim...

Okay. This is officially Tales of Middle-Jamuraa.

I could grudginly accept Aragorn, but virtually ALL the human characters are swapped.

We are lucky that the Wizards, Tom Bombadil, and part of the hobbits were left alone.

Quote from Tormented »

And that picture? What is she doing - randomly running in the air with the most awkward of poses?

Judging from the severed head, it is the moment she decapitated the Witch-King's mount.

Quote from Tormented »

Also, I get inclusiveness - but she is the white lady of Rohan - known for her pale complexion!

Well, there are some things that are not recommended to discuss here to prevent the discussion from spinning out of control.

Many people do not quite like the direction they take, but it is a fact that we cannot do anything about except accepting it as a fact.

It seems that Aragorn will have all five colors across his cards except one...

From the stream.

Copying my post from RM:

The Kenrith scions are back, looking older and more serious. Will has his ice leg he "earned" during the Strixhaven ordeal.




There's some kind of mysterious sleeping curse troubling the people of Eldraine. Where we have heard it already...?



There is some lady with a perfectly harmless apple, I am sure.



And there is someone out for blood....I mean, crumb debt to settle.

The Kenrith scions are back, looking older and more serious. Will has his ice leg he "earned" during the Strixhaven ordeal.




There's some kind of mysterious sleeping curse troubling the people of Eldraine. Where we have heard it already...?



There is some lady with a perfectly harmless apple, I am sure.



And there is someone out for blood....I mean, crumb debt to settle.

From the stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odzYBR-X_vw