Also, Warp World does put in enchantments last, which would further make doubling season not work. =P
I did realize that part, I was just using it as an example of an effect that puts permanents into play at the same time. Genesis Wave would have been the better example.
Primal Surge puts the cards into play one at a time, not all at once, so order matters.
Ah, that's something that may have changed the outcome as well. We did not keep track, and assumed it was similar to, say Warp World's effect where the permanents come into play at the same time.
(Force of habit to use "into play" instead of "enters the battlefield," I don't mind either way in your explanations, my play group still uses the old wording when reading cards)
Playing my Animar EDH deck the other night, I had a rules interaction I need to make sure about. I believe I resolved an evolve trigger wrong, and have read up on evolve rulings to try to correct it. I cast a Primal Surge, it puts Fathom Mage, Rattleclaw Mystic, Doubling Season, Primal Vigor, Cytoplast Manipulator, Worldspine Wurm, Kruphix, God of Horizons, and Chasm Skulker into play (along with other things) before hitting another non-permanent.
Fathom Mage's evolve would trigger off of the Mystic (power is greater than Fathom's), the Wurm, Kruphix, and the Cytoplast Manipulator (coming into play with 8 +1/+1 counters- 2 (graft 2) doubled to 4 (Doubling Season) doubled to 8 (Primal Vigor) making it an 8/8). First evolve trigger tries to resolve: Rattleclaw Mystic still has greater power, so Fathom Mage gets 4 +1/+1 counter (due to the Doublers), I draw 4 cards, Chasm Skulker gets 16 counters. The next evolve trigger tries to resolve, Cytoplast is an 8/8 to Fathom's 5/5, Fathom gets 4 more counter, I draw 4 more cards, Skulker gets 16 more counters. Third evolve, Kruphix's toughness is no longer higher than Fathom Mage's (7 to Fathom's 9) Fathom Mage does not evolve. Fourth evolve trigger, same as the first two (15/15 > 9/9), Fathom gets 4 more counters, draw 4 cards, Skulker gets 16 counters. End result is a Fathom Mage with 12 counters, and a Chasm Skulker with 48 counters. (I had played that all four of the evolve triggers fully resolved, so it and the Skulker were larger. Nobody in the play group said anything, but I now believe that one of the triggers would not resolve).
...And after typing all that out, I had another thought. Do Doubling Season and Primal Vigor need to be in play before the Primal Surge is cast to affect this?
I always get confused about attacking, I never remember if you attack the pw or the player and then redirect damage...
Thanks a lot guys!
When you attack someone who controls a Planeswalker, you decide whether each creature attacks the player or that player's planeswalker.
When you cast a damage-dealing spell (like Lightning bolt) you must target the player, and when the spell goes to resolve (after the targeted player decides to counter or respond to the bolt in any other way) that's when you decide whether or not to redirect the damage to the planeswalker.
Both Goblin Chieftain and Elesh Norn have static abilities. Static abilities are always "on", and don't resolve (only things on the stack resolve). When the new tokens come into play, the chieftains give +2/+2 and Elesh Norn gives -2/-2 to the tokens at the same time. the +2's and -2's in this case basically offset each other, leaving you with a 1/1 token.
If one of the chieftains dies, then your tokens will die as well because the +1/+1 he was giving to your goblins goes away as soon as he dies. If Elesh Norn dies, then the -2/-2 it was giving your creatures goes away.
it will wait until hpergenesis is done resolving completely for the demon's trigger to go on the stack and resolve. triggered abilities can't be put on the stack while another spell or ability is in the process of resolving, it has to wait.
Quote from gatherer rulings »
Anything that triggers during the resolution of this will wait to be put on the stack until everything is put onto the battlefield and resolution is complete. The player whose turn it is will put all of his or her triggered abilities on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order will do the same. (The last ability put on the stack will be the first one that resolves.)
You may target yourself with Bazaar Trader's ability. Normally, this won't have any visible effect. However, the ability would override an effect with a limited duration that gave you control of a permanent. For example, if you temporarily gained control of a creature with Act of Treason, targeting yourself and that creature with Bazaar Trader's ability would then cause you to gain control of the creature indefinitely.
All he has to do is take your permanent with the Dominus, then tap the bazaar trader targeting that permanent and himself sa the target player. the trader's ability overwrites the temporary control effect of the dominus and causes him to permanently gain control of that permanent.
as a lover of UG stuff, this is definitely going in my Animar EDH. Opponent moves to combat, so flash in Stormtide Leviathan or something equally as big and annoying to off-color players.
that being said, i just hope in RtR they give Simic (and Izzet, my two favorite color combos... i like my blue-enemy color pairs) some good things.
I don't think they would spread them out over 3 sets
why not? that's how they originally did it.
overgrown tomb, sacred foundry, temple garden, watery grave were in Ravnica
godless shrine, stomping grounds, steam vents were Guildpact
hallowed fountain, breeding pool, blood crypt were Dissension
if they do decide to reprint them, they'll likely do the same thing and split them up 4-3-3 through the block, though not necessarily in the same order.
they can in the same way a lightning bolt can. you target the player, then upon resolution of the ability, you can choose for the damage to be redirected to a planeswalker that player controls. any non-combat damage may be redirected this way.
No, you don't get to choose what order triggers go on the stack unless you control both triggers. When different players control the triggers, they go on the stack in active player-non active player (APNAP) order. Your myr damage trigger will go on the stack, then his undying trigger will go on the stack. The undying will resolve first, but you won't be able to target the geist with your myr damage because targets are chosen when the ability goes on the stack, at which point the geist is still in the graveyard.
The triggers would resolve in the opposite order if your opponent was attacking, but the result is still the same, the geist is in the graveyard when the target for the myr's ability is chosen.
Because when that happens, the state based actions that see a creature with 0 or less toughness are checked at the same time a creature with +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters would get the counters canceled out.
Quote from MTG comprehensive rules »
704.7. If a state-based action results in a permanent leaving the battlefield at the same time other state-based actions were performed, that permanent’s last known information is derived from the game state before any of those state-based actions were performed.
Since it's sent to the graveyard from SBAs seeing a 0 toughness creature, undying will look at how the creature was right before it went to the graveyard. At that moment, it had both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters. Undying says "if it had no +1/+1 counters on it return it to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter." The creature did have +1/+1 counters because the SBA that cancels out the counters didn't complete before it was sent to the graveyard.
It's not exactly the same thing, no. In the situation you describe with the bear, the bolt will be countered by the game rules for not having a legal target when it tries to resolve. When someone uses a Counterspell, Cancel, mana leak, or something similar, the effect of the counterspell is what's causing the lightning bolt to be countered.
The only case I can think of where this matters is cards that say they "can't be countered by spells or abilities" like Banefire where X=5 or more. A counterspell or Voidmage Prodigy can't counter it, but if all of its targets become illegal, it will still be countered by the game rules.
no you wouldn't have 2 tapped blue creatures to untap, you would have just the gelectrode to untap.
He has 2 gelectrodes in the example.
Yes that works, as long as you have 2 tapped blue creatures (in this case, 2 gelectrodes) and the 2 mana to activate crackleburr's ability, it works just fine.
I did realize that part, I was just using it as an example of an effect that puts permanents into play at the same time. Genesis Wave would have been the better example.
Ah, that's something that may have changed the outcome as well. We did not keep track, and assumed it was similar to, say Warp World's effect where the permanents come into play at the same time.
Playing my Animar EDH deck the other night, I had a rules interaction I need to make sure about. I believe I resolved an evolve trigger wrong, and have read up on evolve rulings to try to correct it. I cast a Primal Surge, it puts Fathom Mage, Rattleclaw Mystic, Doubling Season, Primal Vigor, Cytoplast Manipulator, Worldspine Wurm, Kruphix, God of Horizons, and Chasm Skulker into play (along with other things) before hitting another non-permanent.
Fathom Mage's evolve would trigger off of the Mystic (power is greater than Fathom's), the Wurm, Kruphix, and the Cytoplast Manipulator (coming into play with 8 +1/+1 counters- 2 (graft 2) doubled to 4 (Doubling Season) doubled to 8 (Primal Vigor) making it an 8/8). First evolve trigger tries to resolve: Rattleclaw Mystic still has greater power, so Fathom Mage gets 4 +1/+1 counter (due to the Doublers), I draw 4 cards, Chasm Skulker gets 16 counters. The next evolve trigger tries to resolve, Cytoplast is an 8/8 to Fathom's 5/5, Fathom gets 4 more counter, I draw 4 more cards, Skulker gets 16 more counters. Third evolve, Kruphix's toughness is no longer higher than Fathom Mage's (7 to Fathom's 9) Fathom Mage does not evolve. Fourth evolve trigger, same as the first two (15/15 > 9/9), Fathom gets 4 more counters, draw 4 cards, Skulker gets 16 counters. End result is a Fathom Mage with 12 counters, and a Chasm Skulker with 48 counters. (I had played that all four of the evolve triggers fully resolved, so it and the Skulker were larger. Nobody in the play group said anything, but I now believe that one of the triggers would not resolve).
...And after typing all that out, I had another thought. Do Doubling Season and Primal Vigor need to be in play before the Primal Surge is cast to affect this?
When you attack someone who controls a Planeswalker, you decide whether each creature attacks the player or that player's planeswalker.
When you cast a damage-dealing spell (like Lightning bolt) you must target the player, and when the spell goes to resolve (after the targeted player decides to counter or respond to the bolt in any other way) that's when you decide whether or not to redirect the damage to the planeswalker.
If one of the chieftains dies, then your tokens will die as well because the +1/+1 he was giving to your goblins goes away as soon as he dies. If Elesh Norn dies, then the -2/-2 it was giving your creatures goes away.
you're completely right, for the reason you said. activating an activated ability is not casting a non-land card (which the refuge lets you do).
All he has to do is take your permanent with the Dominus, then tap the bazaar trader targeting that permanent and himself sa the target player. the trader's ability overwrites the temporary control effect of the dominus and causes him to permanently gain control of that permanent.
that being said, i just hope in RtR they give Simic (and Izzet, my two favorite color combos... i like my blue-enemy color pairs) some good things.
why not? that's how they originally did it.
overgrown tomb, sacred foundry, temple garden, watery grave were in Ravnica
godless shrine, stomping grounds, steam vents were Guildpact
hallowed fountain, breeding pool, blood crypt were Dissension
if they do decide to reprint them, they'll likely do the same thing and split them up 4-3-3 through the block, though not necessarily in the same order.
The triggers would resolve in the opposite order if your opponent was attacking, but the result is still the same, the geist is in the graveyard when the target for the myr's ability is chosen.
Since it's sent to the graveyard from SBAs seeing a 0 toughness creature, undying will look at how the creature was right before it went to the graveyard. At that moment, it had both +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters. Undying says "if it had no +1/+1 counters on it return it to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter." The creature did have +1/+1 counters because the SBA that cancels out the counters didn't complete before it was sent to the graveyard.
The only case I can think of where this matters is cards that say they "can't be countered by spells or abilities" like Banefire where X=5 or more. A counterspell or Voidmage Prodigy can't counter it, but if all of its targets become illegal, it will still be countered by the game rules.
He has 2 gelectrodes in the example.
Yes that works, as long as you have 2 tapped blue creatures (in this case, 2 gelectrodes) and the 2 mana to activate crackleburr's ability, it works just fine.