Jesus Christ **** you Cyan and DV, I gave the game everything I had, I didn't blame anyone or anything, I didn't ***** talk anyone, I didn't say I was better than anyone. I actually said I thought the setup was really cool and tom already said the same things that I did about how I felt it could have been improved so you're an ******** for treating me like my opinion is a bunch of *****. How much do you want me to apologize for my activity issues? Because I've already said how much I regret not having more time to dedicate to the game. I've already said how sorry I am for letting my team down. I've already explained that I had no way to anticipate how busy work became suddenly. Is that not ******* good enough for you? You do realize this is a ******* game? Do you want me to tell you about how I was working so much that my relationship with my partner suffered and all the little fights we had about that? Do you want me to tell you about how I had so little time that I couldn't even shower for days straight? Do you want me to tell you about how I nearly killed myself from the stress? You're telling me I'm a piece of ***** because I didn't prioritize the game when I was working 140 hours a week and I wasn't sleeping and my life was going to *****? **** you.
I should just let this go, rather than drag it out and make myself look heartless...ah well.
I want you to not sign up for mafia games in the first place if this is the case. Especially when you're replacing into a game that was, at that point, well established. How could you not know that you wouldn't be able to play? Like..it sucks that you have personal problems right now. I wish you didn't. But that doesn't excuse you dragging down everyone else' gameplay experience here, and it doesn't explain why you were constantly *****ing in the scum thread.
Also, no one is telling you that you're a piece of *****. This was just an attempt at some constructive criticism. It sounds like you just need to take a step back and focus on things that are actual priorities in your life, not mafia.
Wuffles and Atog you guys are awesome. Thanks! Though my dying on the last night while completely accidental death made the last day a lot cleaner.
@DBS Everyone has cases get ignored. Silver's really smart heist wolf PoE got ignored to some extent, my less smart SK!Cyan case was largely ignored, and Cyan's Dota is scum case got ignored. It's just from there a matter of how you pursue them. Cyan is a hit of a bulldog in general but in this game he got to unilaterally act on his case. Silver posted eloquent wall after eloquent wall trying to convince people. I mostly flailed around and was rightfully ignored.
If you have the self awareness to realize you're different (which is great, I wish I'd understood myself better 10 years ago) then maybe take the next step and realize we can't intuitively make the connections you do and try to explain them in ways idiots like me will understand. It took me so long to even understand your give the puzzlebox to a suspect theory. I never agreed with it but I eventually saw where it was coming from. Without that understanding I was always either going to ignore it or push you as scum for it.
@Grape: I wish more people approached mafia the way you and Silver do. Myself included. You are both wonderful.
@Silver: If you're in a similar situation to this game in the future, I recommend just not revealing anything, except maybe that you're a mandatory Vig, at some point. You might get lynched as SK Anyway(Mandatory Vig is a pretty common SK fake claim), but still.
@Gemma: Terry was never a 'cleared role'. He acted thoroughly town Day 1, and then a sequence of in game events made it obvious that he wasn't scum. There is nothing the Mod can do to prevent DOTA stealing an item that Terry bought, which he could only do via nightkill, while Terry was Doc protected. RE and Atog were never 'soft cleared' for anything. RE only became 'clear' on the final game day, when the person that would have had his scum role flipped. I vigged Atog because he was somewhat scummy, especially early in the game when he was more active, and he was in the Heist POE. We lynched KJ because he didn't know how his own role worked, and it seemed like he was just lying about it. Wuffles literally had to use a one-shot item to be confirmed as town, and even, he seemed less likely town to me at the end of the game than Rhand or RE. Kami was viewed as town because he counter-claimed someone as Doc AND prevented a scum NK. And LW was just behaviorally town. None of these are 'clears' built into the game, they're just player behavior sometimes combined with in game circumstances that a Mod can't do anything about. Maybe you should just play games where everyone is Vanilla? Or maybe you should, you know, actually participate in games that you willingly choose to replace into. When your team needed you more than ever, you chose to contribute nothing. That's really poor for a replacement, and then you just blamed the game instead of at least being honest about the situation.
@Proph: See you a year from now when a game interests me enough to play again.
3. Cyan you played a fantastic game, but you kind of gave away the highground there at the end with your comments around wisp.
I'm not sure when I've ever cared about having the 'high ground'. I play like one game per year at this point. I just want that experience to be the best experience possible. I didn't say anything to LW at any point during the game, despite wanting to multiple times. I've had problems with that in the past, and I'm very aware of that, and didn't want to negatively impact the rest of the playerbase' gameplay experience. But the game is over now.
It's fine to be a new player and make mistakes. Even a bunch of them. It's not fine to be a new player, make mistakes, and act like an arrogant **** and actively make the town's life more difficult. LW flatly stated that he blocked Rhand because of 'tinfoil'. That is unacceptable. Period. If you're paranoid, fine, you're paranoid. But you don't act against the town because of it. And you ESPECIALLY don't ridicule other people because they make choice that you (incorrectly) think were poor.
@Gemma: What are the 5 clears that you are referring to?
@DBS: We didn't ignore your case because you 'think differently'. We tuned you out because you kept acting like an ********(and I know plenty about that), which is especially vexing coming from someone who has apparently one other game played here, and we had a hard time taking anything you said seriously because your viewpoints were just absurd in some aspects. Like. You legitimately believe that people should not clarify things with the Mod. Coming from our perspective of 'people that are rational', this makes everything you say hard to accept, especially when combined with you acting like a jerk toward people to such an extent that one of the Mods had to make a post about it.
I'm still deciding whether to use my last action to sell the Cross or to shoot someone. I think shooting someone here could be dangerous; who knows what the last scum can do. At the same time, if Rhand or Wuffles is somehow scum, they're likely just going to win the game, so shooting one of Tom/Grape and just hoping I can convince everyone else to lynch the other tomorrow seems..okay. I suppose I could also convince them to NL, so that we could potentially roll into another night so that I'd gain another shot.
Of course, if Tom is scum and I shoot Grape, that lets Tom 'use' the Pocket Watch and lie about whatever tonight's NK results are. I suppose I could just shoot Tom and take that possibility out of the equation entirely.
Suck it. I was very, very well aware that Tom was highly likely to be scum, I just didn't want to fire when I didn't have to.
And of course I shot Atog. He was fairly scummy, he was in the POE, his role involved the Auction House.
Oh and right. You roleblocked RHAND, arguably the most town confirmed person in the entire game. The game would have just been instantly over if that hadn't happened. You directly assisted the scum. Get over yourself you clown.
And yes, I definitely highly valued my role. Vig is easily the second best town role, behind Cop. 3rd is..who ******* knows, but it's not particularly close. Also, I value myself as a player more than anyone else that was alive and likely town at that point, take that however you will.
Ultimately, you are a stone garbage player and have no business questioning my play, or anyone else', for that matter. You RBed the same person TWICE even though you should have known after the first time that he was 100% clear town, except you couldn't understand your own role PM. I'm honestly glad that I only play like one game per year, because if I signed up to another game with you any time soon, I'd just replace out to save myself the heartache of listening to your nonsense.
@Tom: But the expendable items were far more powerful. You guys literally got to make a person Vanilla, and even THAT was not information that was going to be provided to them until they actually tried to do something. This kind of hidden information is incredibly powerful, it just happened that you had to use it on a person that was going to figure it out not only immediately, but during the day as well. Mafia is literally a game of information. You are wildly downplaying how powerful it is to keep this information from only the town.
I do agree about Wills though. Town should have been able to Will one item to someone else; at most. We shouldn't have just been able to stockpile items constantly, that's too much.
Thanks for MVP
I’m still reading spec chat, but @Shadow: You were my biggest scumread going into Night, together with Iso. I figured targetting Iso wasn’t going to work because I believed at least the hiding aspect of his claimed role was true, so you were my best shot.
So no, it wasn’t random luck
This is funny to me, in that Iso was the other person I was considering vigging N1 heh. Ultimately though I just couldn't get over how really, really obviously scum DOTA was. Like his vote on Vezok was just...unreal bad.
I usually give out to my players one of the following replies: Your ability has failed / You have successfully used your ability on X / You have successfully used your ability on Y instead of the original target.
This is always how it should be. Always. I cannot think of a circumstance where it should be any other way. If you don't want to confirm the existence of an RB by saying 'you got roleblocked', that's fine. But if someone's ability fails, they should know. If it doesn't, they should know. If they got redirected, they should ABSOLUTELY know.
The only reason things would have been different if Osi didn't mess up is because DV wanted redirection to just be a non-reveal, which is literally just comical levels of nonsense. In any normal circumstance, people would have submitted their actions, and been informed that they got redirected to someone else, and it would have been worked out.
I can understand being gruff about the Heist, but this is just more of the same point. The full list of AH items should have always been available(and maybe was, I don't remember now), so as soon as X items disappeared at once, it would have been obvious what happened. And you guys had the benefit of us thinking that LW's RB wouldn't stop someone from being on the Heist(because the ability was worded so oddly), even though it would have. If we'd understood that, RE would have been absolutely confirmed town the entire game, instead of only becoming effectively confirmed when Cantrip got lynched and flipped the role that it made the most sense for RE-scum to have.
And like come on. Items just vanished when they were used up, so you guys got to use things and know exactly what happened, while we literally had no idea and just had to surmise that 'some item got used at some point'. The possibilities for second guessing yourself as town in this circumstance are literally endless.
You messed up defending Cantrip, and I think you know it. I guess you felt like you'd have lost out to POE otherwise, and you might have, but you HARD defended Cantrip, and it just only made sense for you to do so if you were scum with him, no matter how much you tried to run the 'I'm just a *****lord' defense for doing so.
And Dawning was never getting lynched after the start of Day 5; it was overwhelmingly obvious that she was being truthful about everything there. Her getting modkilled was the best thing that could POSSIBLY have happened for you there, because I 100% would have shot you last night if there had been even one more town body around.
Yeah let's talk about that a bit more. Allowing things like redirection to exist and not informing people that they got redirected is nonsense. Like..full stop. This is not information that you can just hide from a playerbase; the advantage that it gives to those that know what happened is tremendous and far too difficult to overcome. This is just not a thing that should happen. When people use abilities, they should either A)know the results of them or B)understand if they were interfered with. That's it.
And some of the items were just silly. It's easy to say 'the Eyes would be too powerful if they told you if they absorbed an ability'. But how powerful is that, really? You don't know what ability. You just know that they did something. Otherwise, it's just a dumb item that you spend 3 Sanity on(which is a considerable amount) to hope that it ever does something. Plus it's hugely diminished by Tom's kill apparently being not stoppable/redirectable/anything in any way. If you want to include items in a game(which I think is great, I love when games have extra things like this..Specialties are literally like the only games I play anymore), you have to be crystal clear on what those items do. Hiding this information just gives the scum a benefit that they shouldn't have.
Man I really thought I'd get MVP this time. Ah well. Maybe if I'd just trusted my instincts last night and shot Tom(but then maybe I'd just have been blocked somehow as well). Good job Rhand.
Sorry for being so high strung about this game, DV. You took on something incredibly ambitious here, and were exceedingly patient about it. It was a very interesting setup. I just get frustrated when I can't figure things out, and that was hugely exacerbated by the fact that the very design of the game was 'can't figure things out'. I honestly don't feel like that is a good way to design mafia games. The whole point of the game is to work ***** out and compare people's behaviors to their claimed actions and so on. That was basically impossible this game.
The setup mostly just seemed really swingy. DOTA dying N1 was an incredible boon to the town, and the information that we gained from his flip could have been exceedingly damaging to us if he'd stuck around. Plus then Shadow got caught at literally the same time. From an outside perspective, it probably seemed like we just had this locked down and dragged it out for nothing. But from the perspective of being a town player in the game, the game state literally never felt comfortable. I think that if things had gone even a little differently early in the game, or DOTA hadn't just been the most obvious scum to ever scum, this could have easily been a bloodbath for the scum team. I don't like swingy games in general, but that's a personal preference. I still recognize the insane amount of time and effort you put into this setup, DV, and will always have a great appreciation for that.
I really just want Tom to flip scum and not have to figure out anything else, even though I'm having a pretty hard time believing that Cantrip, as scum, put 2 of his scumbuddies into a 3 person chat. It is just bafflingly illogical.
Something I will certainly remember in future games, heh.
I should just let this go, rather than drag it out and make myself look heartless...ah well.
I want you to not sign up for mafia games in the first place if this is the case. Especially when you're replacing into a game that was, at that point, well established. How could you not know that you wouldn't be able to play? Like..it sucks that you have personal problems right now. I wish you didn't. But that doesn't excuse you dragging down everyone else' gameplay experience here, and it doesn't explain why you were constantly *****ing in the scum thread.
Also, no one is telling you that you're a piece of *****. This was just an attempt at some constructive criticism. It sounds like you just need to take a step back and focus on things that are actual priorities in your life, not mafia.
@Grape: I wish more people approached mafia the way you and Silver do. Myself included. You are both wonderful.
@Silver: If you're in a similar situation to this game in the future, I recommend just not revealing anything, except maybe that you're a mandatory Vig, at some point. You might get lynched as SK Anyway(Mandatory Vig is a pretty common SK fake claim), but still.
@Gemma: Terry was never a 'cleared role'. He acted thoroughly town Day 1, and then a sequence of in game events made it obvious that he wasn't scum. There is nothing the Mod can do to prevent DOTA stealing an item that Terry bought, which he could only do via nightkill, while Terry was Doc protected. RE and Atog were never 'soft cleared' for anything. RE only became 'clear' on the final game day, when the person that would have had his scum role flipped. I vigged Atog because he was somewhat scummy, especially early in the game when he was more active, and he was in the Heist POE. We lynched KJ because he didn't know how his own role worked, and it seemed like he was just lying about it. Wuffles literally had to use a one-shot item to be confirmed as town, and even, he seemed less likely town to me at the end of the game than Rhand or RE. Kami was viewed as town because he counter-claimed someone as Doc AND prevented a scum NK. And LW was just behaviorally town. None of these are 'clears' built into the game, they're just player behavior sometimes combined with in game circumstances that a Mod can't do anything about. Maybe you should just play games where everyone is Vanilla? Or maybe you should, you know, actually participate in games that you willingly choose to replace into. When your team needed you more than ever, you chose to contribute nothing. That's really poor for a replacement, and then you just blamed the game instead of at least being honest about the situation.
@Proph: See you a year from now when a game interests me enough to play again.
I'm not sure when I've ever cared about having the 'high ground'. I play like one game per year at this point. I just want that experience to be the best experience possible. I didn't say anything to LW at any point during the game, despite wanting to multiple times. I've had problems with that in the past, and I'm very aware of that, and didn't want to negatively impact the rest of the playerbase' gameplay experience. But the game is over now.
It's fine to be a new player and make mistakes. Even a bunch of them. It's not fine to be a new player, make mistakes, and act like an arrogant **** and actively make the town's life more difficult. LW flatly stated that he blocked Rhand because of 'tinfoil'. That is unacceptable. Period. If you're paranoid, fine, you're paranoid. But you don't act against the town because of it. And you ESPECIALLY don't ridicule other people because they make choice that you (incorrectly) think were poor.
@Gemma: What are the 5 clears that you are referring to?
@DBS: We didn't ignore your case because you 'think differently'. We tuned you out because you kept acting like an ********(and I know plenty about that), which is especially vexing coming from someone who has apparently one other game played here, and we had a hard time taking anything you said seriously because your viewpoints were just absurd in some aspects. Like. You legitimately believe that people should not clarify things with the Mod. Coming from our perspective of 'people that are rational', this makes everything you say hard to accept, especially when combined with you acting like a jerk toward people to such an extent that one of the Mods had to make a post about it.
Suck it. I was very, very well aware that Tom was highly likely to be scum, I just didn't want to fire when I didn't have to.
And of course I shot Atog. He was fairly scummy, he was in the POE, his role involved the Auction House.
Oh and right. You roleblocked RHAND, arguably the most town confirmed person in the entire game. The game would have just been instantly over if that hadn't happened. You directly assisted the scum. Get over yourself you clown.
And yes, I definitely highly valued my role. Vig is easily the second best town role, behind Cop. 3rd is..who ******* knows, but it's not particularly close. Also, I value myself as a player more than anyone else that was alive and likely town at that point, take that however you will.
Ultimately, you are a stone garbage player and have no business questioning my play, or anyone else', for that matter. You RBed the same person TWICE even though you should have known after the first time that he was 100% clear town, except you couldn't understand your own role PM. I'm honestly glad that I only play like one game per year, because if I signed up to another game with you any time soon, I'd just replace out to save myself the heartache of listening to your nonsense.
I do agree about Wills though. Town should have been able to Will one item to someone else; at most. We shouldn't have just been able to stockpile items constantly, that's too much.
This is funny to me, in that Iso was the other person I was considering vigging N1 heh. Ultimately though I just couldn't get over how really, really obviously scum DOTA was. Like his vote on Vezok was just...unreal bad.
This is always how it should be. Always. I cannot think of a circumstance where it should be any other way. If you don't want to confirm the existence of an RB by saying 'you got roleblocked', that's fine. But if someone's ability fails, they should know. If it doesn't, they should know. If they got redirected, they should ABSOLUTELY know.
I can understand being gruff about the Heist, but this is just more of the same point. The full list of AH items should have always been available(and maybe was, I don't remember now), so as soon as X items disappeared at once, it would have been obvious what happened. And you guys had the benefit of us thinking that LW's RB wouldn't stop someone from being on the Heist(because the ability was worded so oddly), even though it would have. If we'd understood that, RE would have been absolutely confirmed town the entire game, instead of only becoming effectively confirmed when Cantrip got lynched and flipped the role that it made the most sense for RE-scum to have.
And like come on. Items just vanished when they were used up, so you guys got to use things and know exactly what happened, while we literally had no idea and just had to surmise that 'some item got used at some point'. The possibilities for second guessing yourself as town in this circumstance are literally endless.
You messed up defending Cantrip, and I think you know it. I guess you felt like you'd have lost out to POE otherwise, and you might have, but you HARD defended Cantrip, and it just only made sense for you to do so if you were scum with him, no matter how much you tried to run the 'I'm just a *****lord' defense for doing so.
And Dawning was never getting lynched after the start of Day 5; it was overwhelmingly obvious that she was being truthful about everything there. Her getting modkilled was the best thing that could POSSIBLY have happened for you there, because I 100% would have shot you last night if there had been even one more town body around.
And some of the items were just silly. It's easy to say 'the Eyes would be too powerful if they told you if they absorbed an ability'. But how powerful is that, really? You don't know what ability. You just know that they did something. Otherwise, it's just a dumb item that you spend 3 Sanity on(which is a considerable amount) to hope that it ever does something. Plus it's hugely diminished by Tom's kill apparently being not stoppable/redirectable/anything in any way. If you want to include items in a game(which I think is great, I love when games have extra things like this..Specialties are literally like the only games I play anymore), you have to be crystal clear on what those items do. Hiding this information just gives the scum a benefit that they shouldn't have.
Sorry for being so high strung about this game, DV. You took on something incredibly ambitious here, and were exceedingly patient about it. It was a very interesting setup. I just get frustrated when I can't figure things out, and that was hugely exacerbated by the fact that the very design of the game was 'can't figure things out'. I honestly don't feel like that is a good way to design mafia games. The whole point of the game is to work ***** out and compare people's behaviors to their claimed actions and so on. That was basically impossible this game.
The setup mostly just seemed really swingy. DOTA dying N1 was an incredible boon to the town, and the information that we gained from his flip could have been exceedingly damaging to us if he'd stuck around. Plus then Shadow got caught at literally the same time. From an outside perspective, it probably seemed like we just had this locked down and dragged it out for nothing. But from the perspective of being a town player in the game, the game state literally never felt comfortable. I think that if things had gone even a little differently early in the game, or DOTA hadn't just been the most obvious scum to ever scum, this could have easily been a bloodbath for the scum team. I don't like swingy games in general, but that's a personal preference. I still recognize the insane amount of time and effort you put into this setup, DV, and will always have a great appreciation for that.
Derpity derp derp derp.
Anyway, more votes on Tom please.