MTG Salvation

/agree aboout boomerang/truth - I have also randomly won games with reccuring random stuff, and then you draw into your third witness and it's gg.

early frost seems like it'd only be good against TnN...which might make it good enough to run, IF we didn't have so many different ways to answer TnN anyways...It might be worth running in MUC or something, who have a limited number of answers...

Seconded, Cyan - e-truth can get you out of many situations, and it seems important have that third copy in there.

I think they might be stepping over the line with this assassination of the president...I mean when jack had to kill that agent for the terrorists, it was bad enough, but this is getting disturbing...

I was surprised no one had started a thread about this show. IMHO, it is possibly the best show on tv atm, and was wondering if anyone else enjoys this show as much as me.

Or am I all alone??

holy poo cyan, 9 cards? Im confuzzled...you have plows main..?
could I see your list? and you wouldn't be entwining reap against monoU...just fetch boseiju, and for everyone after that, kill a manland. Against tooth, it can kill urzalands if needed, or nuke a boseiju. I'll test some, and report back.

The presence of boil in games 2 and 3 are hardly changed by CoP: red...I find that the matchup is fine without the circle. I think that the scrying/boseiju option is a good one...and could even be brought in against TnN to abuse the legend rule...

What about using reap and sow instead of scrying? that way you could kill boseiju against tooth, and still fetch boseiju agaist other decks?

A note against MUC:
I've seen some people using flash counter against MUC...I havent tested it personally, but it seems like it would be fine.

I've also thought about last word, as it seems like it could just counter their "business spell" (meloku, shackles, etc.) and win you the matchup...

Some thoughts on TnN:
It has become a very real possibility to see boseiju in the first game against tooth. I think we need some sort of reliable answer (as in not plow, as you have to draw it, and it only works once) to this problem. Some answers I have thought of are:
Creeping Mold
Floodbringer (it sounds janky, but it could work)
Time Stop

None of these seem particularly good...Creeping Mold is the best, but that would mean devoting at least 2 spots for that, as well as 2-3 for naturalize (speed is essential in the WW match, and mana open is essential against decks with shackles), which seems like too much.

Thoughts?

That's not what I mean, Cyan...I suppose it's different for me because I'm not running reach - a debateable decision - and so, just don't cast rude for fear of those cards...and you want to leave yourself some room to counter after a lethal attack...that means three lands have to be held back, which sets my deck back considerably if I want to cast a lethal rude. I just think meloku is a better win condition for this deck.

EDIT: Semi-agreed about the points on the metagame - I think we could be shaping the optimal build, and when the metagame settles down a bit, change it. I just want to get down a first list. Right now, I'm thinking:

4 Witness
4 Elder
3 Shackles
4 Serum Visions
3 Meloku
4 Hinder
4 Mana leak
23 land
which leaves us with 11 spots to metagame. This should be plenty...

I think we should start trying to come up with the optimal build. I'm gonna start with the core, and try to work my way to the optimal build, with your input of course.
The Core:
4 witness
4 elder
4 leak
3 Hinder (most likely 4, I believe 4 is the optimal number, input?)
2 Meloku (3?)
3 Shackles
23 land

The main things that need to be discussed are:
Draw: 4 serum visions/1 land, 3 jushi - Ive been testing with inspiration, and it just doesnt seem to have the punch I need...Hopefully saviours will help with that...
Plow under/bribery
Rude Awakening. I know this may seem silly, but rude just hasnt been living up to my expectations lately. a bunch of 2/2 lands usually cant finish the deal, as hideous laughter and echoing decay have been problems, as well as finding enough land, and getting around blockers. With one miscalculation, you could kill a bunch of your land, and be in a very bad position.
Input?

I think this discussion is getting off topic. This thread is for the discussion of UG control - shackles, elders, witnesses, etc. NOT for the discussion of moonfolk/azusa.dec. Lestat, I suggest you post your deck idea in a new thread.

I'd like to see your list then, lesurgo. It seems like this list is way too tight to have 6 5 cc sorceries... mine goes like this:

In recent testing, I have found bribery to be a better card in general against the majority of decks (the only matchup it gets boarded out in is against WW), and provides a better control over tooth. As long as you resolve bribery before they resolve tooth, you're fine (go for titan most of the time, kill their forest. You lose your island, but proceed to beat their face in with a 7/10. The other option is collossus, if they still run it.). I will be flamed for this post, but I encourage people to test it before they do; run it in place of the plows you're already running, and move the plows to the board. Hopefully you will have the same results I did.

quick question: Is echoing truth any good in the TnN matchup? It seems like it's only uses are on witness, and bouncing their trisk/meph vamp/collossus...

has anyone thought about using jushi and inspiration? It seems that with 4 SV for the early game, 2 inspiration for the mid, and 2 jushi for the late, you could keep your hand full, and keep in control of the game. This is just a theory, I just got back from mexico and havent had a chance to do any testing yet...just asking you guys' opinion.

EDIT: Here's the list I'd be running:

Well it seems to me that now the format has slowed down at least to normal levels, 4 mana on the end step is not all that bad. And if we don't run jushi, that leaves us with only SV, which is really only card selection, not card draw...Which seems terrible in a deck with blue. Inspiration has only in it's cost...makes it easy to cast, even if you got jipped and have to play the lone mountain. It makes your 3 card hand a 5 card hand to start your next turn (including draw step). That seems ok...And like Chalupa said, Jushi might only replace itself...and waste tempo...for a deck with and especially it's easy to kill, and they don't mind...there arent many other targets to hit in this deck...