I have considered replacing Glint Hawks with Hero of Bladehold, but I think it slows the deck down a little too much for my taste.
I have 9 0-drop artifacts (4 Memnite, 3 Mox Opal, 2 Chimeric Mass). I think thats plenty for Glint Hawk. If I don't have a 0-drop with the hawk, then I will save it for either post wipe or when i dont have a land and bounce an Inkmoth Nexus. (Or to return a tapped creature or idol later in the game to block).
I like Rally the Peasants. It makes the deck quicker and can be a mana leak bait which you can then flashback if you have an opal out. And even if you don't it can be a big damage swing late game.
I'm torn on dismember main board, I'm thinking about maindecking 2 Oblivion Rings instead.
Sideboard is standard stuff, nothing really interesting, but I always find it hard to take cards out. When you guys are playing top decks, what do you side out? I'm curious.
Looking at the 4 Tempered Steel decks that top 32ed:
Greg Norris' version runs the standard core of creatures (Memnite, Vault Skirge, Signal Pest, GHI) as well as Glint Hawks and Spined Thopters. He also has 3 Leonin Relic-Warders main which is kind of odd, but possibly meta gaming against blade decks and the Tempered Steel mirror? Seems like a strange choice to me overall but Relic Warder definitely is a beating against us so it would be a good mirror-match card. I don't really like that he's running 4 Glint Hawks with just 6 0 cost bounce targets but maybe 6 is enough? He's also got 2 maindeck Mikaeus which I like to see. His sideboard is fairly standard though I'm not really a fan of Revoker. I just feel like it does too little and is so easy to get rid of if it does cause an inconvenience. Whenever I tried playing it would just die to removal the next turn and my opponent could use his card again. It doesn't even let you name a land and that's pretty huge with all the new utility lands and Inkmoth Nexus out there. I'd rather have Hex Parasite sideboard over it (though I like Hex Parasite mainboard even better).
Ari Lax's version also has the standard creature core plus Spined Thopters but no Glint Hawks. His list is a slower version and with more late game potential by running 4 Heroes and 2 maindeck Shrine. Also notable is that he runs a single copy of Mikaeus maindeck and another in the board. 4 Heroes means he runs a few more lands than you would normally expect as well. His sideboard lets him convert to more of a control deck vs other aggros with Timely Reinforcements and Gideon. Other than that it seems pretty standard, and once again I don't really like Revoker but maybe I'm missing something on the card? I'd be interested in seeing what others think of it.
Jake Crowder's version seems similar to Ari's (I'm guessing they may have tested together?) but he uses Legionnaire over Thopter and 2 maindeck Revoker over Mikaeus and something else. The sideboard is quite similar too but with Surgical Extractions since some of the Revokers are maindeck.
Shane Coomes' version is the R/W version with Curse of Stalked Prey and the greedy landbase. As I've stated before I'm not really a fan of this version of the deck as the landbase is far too inconsistent to play 4 Inkmoths (and removing the Inkmoths is just bad). Anyways, if I had to play R/W his list looks about what I would play. I feel like going up to 4 Curses would be overkill as we're just losing so many creatures with 8 enchantments. I like his removal suite. Galvanic Blast is generally a better option than Dispatch due to its reach and he can side in another Dispatch in the matches where he needs it. His sideboard also looks fine to me. It's actually pretty close to what my board looks like in the WW version but I use Purge over Timely. I've been using Divine Offering of late over Revoke Existence since I rarely needed to hit an enchantment and like the instant speed of Offering better but in the mirror match I'd probably prefer Revoke.
Overall it was a great day for Tempered Steel, and at least the mono-white version should be be a competitive build if not the R/W version as well.
I'm a fan of Phyrexian Revoker because it has so many possible targets, not just planeswalkers but birthing pod, one of the one drop mana sources in G/W, and Mox Opal in the mirror. Also its a 4/3 if you have TS out, and it forces your opponent to use a removal spell on it instead of one of your fliers.
I took out Glint Hawks yesterday after testing because there were too many times where playing it messed up the tempo of the deck. Without the 4 Ornithopters it just seems like there arent enough targets for it to return without slowing down the tempo.
I like Hex Parasite as well, I have 3 in my board right now (since i have 3 Revokers main deck right now) because it deals well with the red shrine, planeswalkers, etc.
I'm curious as to how you found the spined thopter vs legionnaire question. I played Legionnaire at my FNM and didnt really get much use out of it, simply because it would just get chump blocked a lot. And if I was to run thopter, would I necessarily need to run the 4 seachrome coast?
The deck that beat me in the finals was that new Esper Control deck with Snapcaster Mage etc. That deck is pretty sick with Phantasmal Image and Sun Titan comboing into Snapcasters into whatever. Not to mention the new Liliana of the Veil.
Deck ran fairly well, I only have 1 Mox Opal and 1 Mikaeus, I will add more when I get more. (No one around here has them or wants to trade them...)
I've been Pondering the same thing lately, especially with all this talk about Spined Thopter. 2/1 (pumped to 4/3) seems significant, especially with most of the more popular creatures being ground-walkers. However, I'm going to pull a meta prediction here and say that Spirits are probably going to become a thing, and since most of them fly, they can chump-block an unpumped Thopter profitably for days. Because of that, I'd be more eager to play Hovermyr, since he'll knock a rogue Spirit away and come back fine. Sure, he only pings for 1 each turn unpumped, but he beats and retreats ready to block (for an opponent, 1/2 is an annoyance, 3/4 is a deterrent). Even Porcelain Legionnaire seems better to me, since he can survive a great deal of blockers. Example:
To kill a Spined Thopter, your opponent needs 1 1/1 Spirit token.
To kill a Porcelain Legionnaire, you opponent needs 4 1/1 Spirit tokens.
Do you see the math there? It can apply to any other creature, too. If it flies, it can profitably block Spined Thopter (and there are a lot of new flying things). To profitably block a Porcelain Legionnaire, the creature has to be at least a 1/4 (Armored Skaab, for instance).
Of course, this is all speculation on my part. By all means, test it out, see which you prefer. Maybe you could use both, one in the main, one in the side, and use whichever seems better against your matchup. I will admit you're probably going to rely on duals or a slightly slower Opal to pay for the without losing life, but maybe you'll have no trouble with that. If you test it out, please let us know how it goes.
On a less-speculative note, fewer people will be running Glint Hawk since it has fewer things to bounce without losing serious tempo, so maybe Spined Thopter can be a squishier, pumpable, more expensive replacement?
You make some very good points. I'll probably try them both out at some point.
However I would say that Glint Hawk should stay in. In my deck there are the Mox Opals, the Memnites and the 2 or 3 Chimeric Mass. Plus you can also pull some other shenanigans (like returning a tapped attacker (not a phyrexian mana one of course) during 2nd main and replaying it so it can block) and stuff like that. Plus the Glint Hawk has 1 more toughness then thopter, which is important again if spirits become a thing.
Of course a lot of this is based on what decks I will face at States, and that will make some of these choices obvious, or at least clearer.
I am really torn on this. 3/1 first strike vs 2/1 flying. If you run mono-white even though Mox Opal can save you the two life with thopter, a lot of the time you will be forced to pay the 2 life when with the legionnaire you might not have to.
There are plenty of fliers in the deck (the hawks and the hawk idols and the inkmoths) but it seems to me that a flying 2/1 is better cause it will get chump blocked a lot less.
Looks similar to what I've been testing but I use 18 lands and a few copies of Chimeric Mass to help Glint Hawk out and for sweeper resiliency. I've grown a lot less fond of Contested War Zone over time but it could still be a good sideboard option against control decks.
I also prefer Spined Thopter over Porcelain Legionnaire whenever the meta allows it.
If you find 4 Dispatch is not enough removal try adding a Dismember or two.
If you don't run War Zone do you just run more plains or some other land?
Yeah I didn't put a sideboard just cause I dont know the meta yet, but I will probably have a couple dismembers in it.
As for adding a color, I'm not sure that it would work. With 7 non-color lands (the 4 nexus and the 3 war zone) it seems like u might get mana screwed more often then you want.
i just checked the website and blew up pithing needle image.. looks like its 231, which would fit perfectly with the keyrune numbers.
i hope everyone keeps hating on GW and keeps the prices down on the cards I want for my GW populate deck
It's 2.99 on SCG right now.
And I like this card for my standard G/W tokens deck. A free creature each turn sounds pretty good to me. Lots of good interactions.
question though.. if I have Intangible Virtue and I cast Lingering Souls with Trostani in play, how much life do I gain? 2 or 4?
https://www.facebook.com/events/259688907464643/
and yeah, I wish there was more time between the release of RtR and States, but oh well.
I've thought about that, but I don't want them to get the thing back if my creature dies.
4 Glint Hawk
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
3 Spined Thopter
4 Memnite
Spells
4 Glint Hawk Idol
3 Mox Opal
2 Dismember
2 Chimeric Mass
4 Dispatch
3 Rally The Peasants
4 Tempered Steel
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Contested War Zone
9 Plains
3 Revoke Existence
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Purify The Grave
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Celestial Purge
3 Shrine of Loyal Legions
I have considered replacing Glint Hawks with Hero of Bladehold, but I think it slows the deck down a little too much for my taste.
I have 9 0-drop artifacts (4 Memnite, 3 Mox Opal, 2 Chimeric Mass). I think thats plenty for Glint Hawk. If I don't have a 0-drop with the hawk, then I will save it for either post wipe or when i dont have a land and bounce an Inkmoth Nexus. (Or to return a tapped creature or idol later in the game to block).
I like Rally the Peasants. It makes the deck quicker and can be a mana leak bait which you can then flashback if you have an opal out. And even if you don't it can be a big damage swing late game.
I'm torn on dismember main board, I'm thinking about maindecking 2 Oblivion Rings instead.
Sideboard is standard stuff, nothing really interesting, but I always find it hard to take cards out. When you guys are playing top decks, what do you side out? I'm curious.
I'm a fan of Phyrexian Revoker because it has so many possible targets, not just planeswalkers but birthing pod, one of the one drop mana sources in G/W, and Mox Opal in the mirror. Also its a 4/3 if you have TS out, and it forces your opponent to use a removal spell on it instead of one of your fliers.
I took out Glint Hawks yesterday after testing because there were too many times where playing it messed up the tempo of the deck. Without the 4 Ornithopters it just seems like there arent enough targets for it to return without slowing down the tempo.
I like Hex Parasite as well, I have 3 in my board right now (since i have 3 Revokers main deck right now) because it deals well with the red shrine, planeswalkers, etc.
I'm curious as to how you found the spined thopter vs legionnaire question. I played Legionnaire at my FNM and didnt really get much use out of it, simply because it would just get chump blocked a lot. And if I was to run thopter, would I necessarily need to run the 4 seachrome coast?
I went 3-1 and finished 2nd with my list :
4 Memnite
4 Glint Hawk
4 Vault Skirge
3 Hex Parasite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Signal Pest
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Dispatch
4 Glint Hawk Idol
4 Tempered Steel
2 Chimeric Mass
1 Mox Opal
Lands
4 Inkmoth Nexus
15 Plains
4 Shrine of Loyal Legions
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Celestial Purge
2 Nihil Spellbomb
The deck that beat me in the finals was that new Esper Control deck with Snapcaster Mage etc. That deck is pretty sick with Phantasmal Image and Sun Titan comboing into Snapcasters into whatever. Not to mention the new Liliana of the Veil.
Deck ran fairly well, I only have 1 Mox Opal and 1 Mikaeus, I will add more when I get more. (No one around here has them or wants to trade them...)
You make some very good points. I'll probably try them both out at some point.
However I would say that Glint Hawk should stay in. In my deck there are the Mox Opals, the Memnites and the 2 or 3 Chimeric Mass. Plus you can also pull some other shenanigans (like returning a tapped attacker (not a phyrexian mana one of course) during 2nd main and replaying it so it can block) and stuff like that. Plus the Glint Hawk has 1 more toughness then thopter, which is important again if spirits become a thing.
Of course a lot of this is based on what decks I will face at States, and that will make some of these choices obvious, or at least clearer.
Whether to run Spined Thopter or Porcelain Legionnaire.
I am really torn on this. 3/1 first strike vs 2/1 flying. If you run mono-white even though Mox Opal can save you the two life with thopter, a lot of the time you will be forced to pay the 2 life when with the legionnaire you might not have to.
There are plenty of fliers in the deck (the hawks and the hawk idols and the inkmoths) but it seems to me that a flying 2/1 is better cause it will get chump blocked a lot less.
What do you guys think?
If you don't run War Zone do you just run more plains or some other land?
Yeah I didn't put a sideboard just cause I dont know the meta yet, but I will probably have a couple dismembers in it.
And yeah, I need to add 2 or 3 Chimeric Mass.
Spined Thopter is an interesting choice, I hadnt really thought about it.. I'll have to test it out.
4 Glint Hawk
4 Vault Skirge
4 Signal Pest
4 Memnite
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
3 Porcelain Legionnaire
3 Hex Parasite
4 Tempered Steel
4 Glint Hawk Idol
4 Dispatch
3 Mox Opal
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Contested War Zone
13 Plains
I know its 20 lands, but I get really unlucky with draws and I dont feel comfortable running only 18.
I'm still considering cards like Blade Splicer and Spare From Evil but I'm not sure yet.
As for adding a color, I'm not sure that it would work. With 7 non-color lands (the 4 nexus and the 3 war zone) it seems like u might get mana screwed more often then you want.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.