Recollect, even at 3 mana and sorcery speed could see some constructed play. As we saw with Eternal Witness bringing back even 1 card from the graveyard can cause major problems for your opponent.
Could even see some play in T1 along side its bigger brother Regrowth.
A 2/5 for 3 mana that draws you a card when it comes into play:dance2: :dance2: :dance2: . This card could be a mainstay in green based decks. Eternal Witness will be rotating out when this card is legal and this card could be a good replacement for Witness. Using Stampeding Serow this card could produce some very good card advantage and be their to block each turn.
@CrAzEd MiKe: I don't know what your build will be when you splash Meluko the Clouded Mirror , but most MBC decks are running board clearers like Hideous Laughter and Night of Soul's Betrayal . Meluko really doesn't have alot of synergy with those cards. Because of that is Meluko really a good choice for MBC?
Also MBC has alot of highcc spells. Meluko might also hinder you from playing them late game. Usually if Meluko is play late game its probably game over, but we all know that your opponent could topdeck a card that you may need a answer for but might not have enough lands to play the spell and still make tokens or play the spell at all. Chance of that happening is slim, but it does happen.
I don't like to splash other colors in the MD anyway, so maybe I'm just not looking at it in a objective way. My feelings are if your going to splash say Kodoma's Reach in the MD then maybe you should just run a B/G deck. the same for Meluko, if your going to run it MD then add some other U/B cards or just U cards and make it U/B. I understand that this is probably a flawed view, but I'm rather old:old: and stuck in my ways.
Really though what could come out for the Hyppies. The Viridian Shaman is needed to get rid of all the equipement that is running around. You need both the Elves and Tribe Elders for accerlation. Troll is a better beater then Hyppie. Open Fist and Ink Eyes are the win conditions. It doesn't leave much room for the Hyppies. Maybe take out the Persectue but then you are slowing the deck down in the discard department. A 3rd turn Persecute can usually clean out the majority of their hand.
Maybe once Mirridon rotates out then Hyppie might fit into the build alot easier.
I'm running 4 Hypnotic Specter in my MBA deck. With Chrome Mox it can come out on 2nd turn, and start making them discard on 3rd turn isn't bad at all. It gives the deck a discard effect everyturn without paying for it. That can be a powerfull thing when this deck is trying to squeeze the last few points of damage through. Usually this deck can run out of steam, The Hyppie can discard that crucial removal spell or imposing creature that can stall the game out. Its a control creature that can fit into a aggro build, and have a very big affect on the game without dealing a ton of damage.
Sure it can't be equiped to O-Naginata , but really though it doesn't need to be. Equip your groundpounders with O-Naginata and just leave the Hyppie to fly and make your opponent discard their last few cards. Attacking with Hyppie and another creature that could be equiped with O-Naginata would really put alot of pressure onto your opponent. Which would be the bigger threat? Which one does he try and deal with 1st? If he goes for the Hyppie so he doesn't loss his hand then you get more damage through with your creatures with Trample. If he opts for the groundpounders that are equiped then he may loss his hand and be in topdeck mode. Either way that would be alot of pressure on your opponent to make the right decision, which is always a good thing. Also the Hyppie could always be equiped with Umezawa's Jitte.
Most of my opponents have been unhappy when I cast Hyppie. That alone is some proof that Hyppie is still a decent threat that people don't want to see hit the board early. Because of that I believe that it does have a place in a aggro build and hopefully it will.
What are your thoughts on Kokusho, the Evening Star in the deck? You should have enough mana acceleration to support a 6cc spell. I can see that your deck is packed with efficient and powerfull creatures. Maybe you don't have the room, but IMO a 5/5 flyer in this deck couldn't hurt. If the the ground war is at a standstill then Kokusho would give the deck another path to victory.
Now, do you tell me how many shocks/rend fleshes, and the like it'll take main deck to make Cutpurse good against WW and MBA or MGA.
Sheesh... It's a great creature out if it's the only one, or if it had evasion, but I don't remember any card that gives evasion so effectively as to put it on such a 2/2 for 3... Maybe Levatation...
Ophidian didn't have evasion and was very popular in control decks. Blue has counters and bounce and black has spot targeted removal, and board sweepers. Between these 2 colors the Cutpurse should be able to sneak buy and start to gain you card advantage.
I don't want to be picky but, Death Cloud accually affects 4 things. You seem to have forgotten about the life loss. Which can be a major factor in the game and when you can and can't play the Cloud.
Also it took you over half your post to even start to talk about lossing lands from a Titan and how it is differant then lossing lands from a Cloud. So let me understand if you loss the lands on your own terms then it is much differant then lossing lands from a Titan. See to me lossing lands is lossing lands. Even if I know it is the right time to play the Cloud their is no assurances that I will gain advantage before my opponent. Like you said yourself in your own words.
Originally Posted by ThoseBlueDudes Lastly, even if you run talismen / chrome mox, having to lose 3 swamps on a single turn is a HUGE setback for MBC which is a mana hungry beast. Those are your words. If that is what you thought then I would think that you would think that Death Cloud is a bad option in MBC. Since MBC is so mana hungry why play a spell that would stunt your mana development. Maybe you were just going a little to far in your arguement with Kuda. If that is the case maybe you should be more carefull with your thoughts when you are trying to argue your point. Well enough of this, this thread is about discussing competitive MBC builds. Not to have flame wars over and over. It pretty much takes away from the thread as a whole.
Lastly, even if you run talismen / chrome mox, having to lose 3 swamps on a single turn is a HUGE setback for MBC which is a mana hungry beast.
I'm not going to get into a flame war with you. All I'm going to say is that you didn't answer my question. You were arguing with Kuda about Kiki/Titan and you said that losing 3 swamps on a single turn is a HUGE setback for MBC. I responded to that by asking if that was so why would you wan't to play Death Cloud. You didn't answer that. You can make a long post and say that I'm not a good enough player even though you don't know me or have seen me play and really just avoid the main point of my post. Obviously you don't have an answer for my question.
Lastly, even if you run talismen / chrome mox, having to lose 3 swamps on a single turn is a HUGE setback for MBC which is a mana hungry beast.
I agree with this quote that MBC lossing 3 swamps in a single turn is a huge setback. If that is the case then why should Death Cloud be a staple in MBC? If you are saying that MBC is a "mana hunger beast" then isn't Death Cloud a bad card to play?
It makes you loss lands just like KiKi/Titan. Like you said even with Talismans and Moxes lossing 3 swamps in one turn is bad. But that is what you are advocating. Run Cloud with Talismans and Moxes and then use the Cloud to blow up the board, and hand, but the result is the same in alot of cases as Kiki/Titan. You loss lands and the T&N player usually has more lands in play from all the mana acclerators and is in a better possition to recover faster then the MBC deck. T&N can also win in alot of cases for just one good topdeck and the pressence of SDT lets them dig down 3 cards instead of relying on pure topdeck luck.
From what I have writen so far you probably can tell that I am not a very big fan of Death Cloud. The most dominant deck is T&N which is green based and can accelerate its lands into play like crazy. MBC can't keep up IMO. Even all the Moxes and Talismans that MBC plays it still is slower then green based decks. If you play a Cloud to knock out your opponents hand and clear the board but in the process sac most of your lands. Probably the green based deck is going to still be ahead in the land race and your all going to be equal in the hand department and creature department. That doesn't seem like a good postion to be in. The green deck usually (not allways), but usually will be able to recover quicker since whatever it draws it probably will be able to play, because of the land advantage.
One last thing. If Death Cloud was such a devestating card then why hasn't it pushed MBC over the top. I hate to say this but MBC is a tier 2 deck at best. With Cloud or without Cloud it hasn't caught on, it hasn't won on a consistant basis. If the T&N player resloves a T&N the game is usually over, to me that is a game breaking and powerfull card. If the MBC player plays a Death Cloud depending on the circumstances it is a 50/ 50 chance. That to me is not a powerfull or game breaking card. I've played MBC with and without Death Cloud and I have won more games and tournements with a Cloudless MBC.Well to each their own I guess.
Every time I have tried Beacon, it was thouroughly 'meh'.
I urge you to replace them with 4x of Cruel Edict..That card is prolly one of the best removal spells out there right now.
I really don't think very highly of Black Mail , but I would like to replace Wrench Mind with another discard spell. Black Mail is only 1cc and you do get to see their hand. Granted they show you the 3 worst cards they have.
If I added the Cruel Edict it would make my deck very heavy on creature removal. Maybe I will try the Edicts anyway and see how the deck works with all the removal.
Adding Beacon of Unrest would make the mana curve much higher then it already is. I would be replacing a 2cc spell with a 5cc spell. The deck has enough high cc spells that I really should try and replace the Wrench Mind with a cc that is some what comparable.
I dunno... the last time I played a Wrench Mind my opponent discarded a Sensei's Divining Top. Ever since then I've decided that I'm never ever EVER going to use Wrench Mind in a deck again.
Coercion is a decent discard option, it's faster and more reliable than Hippie, without the random suckage of Wrench Minding a hand with spare cards, or bad artifacts...
I WAS playing Wrench Mind in MBC.....I repeat WAS.
That would absolutley suck if that happened:banghead: . I think that I will be taking out the Minds. Not really sure what I'm going to replace them with, possibly Cruel Edict or maybe I will try Black Mail.
Regrowth can get any card.
Recollect, even at 3 mana and sorcery speed could see some constructed play. As we saw with Eternal Witness bringing back even 1 card from the graveyard can cause major problems for your opponent.
Could even see some play in T1 along side its bigger brother Regrowth.
Also MBC has alot of highcc spells. Meluko might also hinder you from playing them late game. Usually if Meluko is play late game its probably game over, but we all know that your opponent could topdeck a card that you may need a answer for but might not have enough lands to play the spell and still make tokens or play the spell at all. Chance of that happening is slim, but it does happen.
I don't like to splash other colors in the MD anyway, so maybe I'm just not looking at it in a objective way. My feelings are if your going to splash say Kodoma's Reach in the MD then maybe you should just run a B/G deck. the same for Meluko, if your going to run it MD then add some other U/B cards or just U cards and make it U/B. I understand that this is probably a flawed view, but I'm rather old:old: and stuck in my ways.
Maybe once Mirridon rotates out then Hyppie might fit into the build alot easier.
Sure it can't be equiped to O-Naginata , but really though it doesn't need to be. Equip your groundpounders with O-Naginata and just leave the Hyppie to fly and make your opponent discard their last few cards. Attacking with Hyppie and another creature that could be equiped with O-Naginata would really put alot of pressure onto your opponent. Which would be the bigger threat? Which one does he try and deal with 1st? If he goes for the Hyppie so he doesn't loss his hand then you get more damage through with your creatures with Trample. If he opts for the groundpounders that are equiped then he may loss his hand and be in topdeck mode. Either way that would be alot of pressure on your opponent to make the right decision, which is always a good thing. Also the Hyppie could always be equiped with Umezawa's Jitte.
Most of my opponents have been unhappy when I cast Hyppie. That alone is some proof that Hyppie is still a decent threat that people don't want to see hit the board early. Because of that I believe that it does have a place in a aggro build and hopefully it will.
I type way to slow!!!
Ophidian didn't have evasion and was very popular in control decks. Blue has counters and bounce and black has spot targeted removal, and board sweepers. Between these 2 colors the Cutpurse should be able to sneak buy and start to gain you card advantage.
All the art looks very cool and I love the art for Sisters of Stone Death. Even if I don't play them I will be collecting that card.
Also it took you over half your post to even start to talk about lossing lands from a Titan and how it is differant then lossing lands from a Cloud. So let me understand if you loss the lands on your own terms then it is much differant then lossing lands from a Titan. See to me lossing lands is lossing lands. Even if I know it is the right time to play the Cloud their is no assurances that I will gain advantage before my opponent. Like you said yourself in your own words.
Originally Posted by ThoseBlueDudes
Lastly, even if you run talismen / chrome mox, having to lose 3 swamps on a single turn is a HUGE setback for MBC which is a mana hungry beast.
Those are your words. If that is what you thought then I would think that you would think that Death Cloud is a bad option in MBC. Since MBC is so mana hungry why play a spell that would stunt your mana development. Maybe you were just going a little to far in your arguement with Kuda. If that is the case maybe you should be more carefull with your thoughts when you are trying to argue your point.
Well enough of this, this thread is about discussing competitive MBC builds. Not to have flame wars over and over. It pretty much takes away from the thread as a whole.
I'm not going to get into a flame war with you. All I'm going to say is that you didn't answer my question. You were arguing with Kuda about Kiki/Titan and you said that losing 3 swamps on a single turn is a HUGE setback for MBC. I responded to that by asking if that was so why would you wan't to play Death Cloud. You didn't answer that. You can make a long post and say that I'm not a good enough player even though you don't know me or have seen me play and really just avoid the main point of my post. Obviously you don't have an answer for my question.
I agree with this quote that MBC lossing 3 swamps in a single turn is a huge setback. If that is the case then why should Death Cloud be a staple in MBC? If you are saying that MBC is a "mana hunger beast" then isn't Death Cloud a bad card to play?
It makes you loss lands just like KiKi/Titan. Like you said even with Talismans and Moxes lossing 3 swamps in one turn is bad. But that is what you are advocating. Run Cloud with Talismans and Moxes and then use the Cloud to blow up the board, and hand, but the result is the same in alot of cases as Kiki/Titan. You loss lands and the T&N player usually has more lands in play from all the mana acclerators and is in a better possition to recover faster then the MBC deck. T&N can also win in alot of cases for just one good topdeck and the pressence of SDT lets them dig down 3 cards instead of relying on pure topdeck luck.
From what I have writen so far you probably can tell that I am not a very big fan of Death Cloud. The most dominant deck is T&N which is green based and can accelerate its lands into play like crazy. MBC can't keep up IMO. Even all the Moxes and Talismans that MBC plays it still is slower then green based decks. If you play a Cloud to knock out your opponents hand and clear the board but in the process sac most of your lands. Probably the green based deck is going to still be ahead in the land race and your all going to be equal in the hand department and creature department. That doesn't seem like a good postion to be in. The green deck usually (not allways), but usually will be able to recover quicker since whatever it draws it probably will be able to play, because of the land advantage.
One last thing. If Death Cloud was such a devestating card then why hasn't it pushed MBC over the top. I hate to say this but MBC is a tier 2 deck at best. With Cloud or without Cloud it hasn't caught on, it hasn't won on a consistant basis. If the T&N player resloves a T&N the game is usually over, to me that is a game breaking and powerfull card. If the MBC player plays a Death Cloud depending on the circumstances it is a 50/ 50 chance. That to me is not a powerfull or game breaking card. I've played MBC with and without Death Cloud and I have won more games and tournements with a Cloudless MBC. Well to each their own I guess.
I really don't think very highly of Black Mail , but I would like to replace Wrench Mind with another discard spell. Black Mail is only 1cc and you do get to see their hand. Granted they show you the 3 worst cards they have.
If I added the Cruel Edict it would make my deck very heavy on creature removal. Maybe I will try the Edicts anyway and see how the deck works with all the removal.
Adding Beacon of Unrest would make the mana curve much higher then it already is. I would be replacing a 2cc spell with a 5cc spell. The deck has enough high cc spells that I really should try and replace the Wrench Mind with a cc that is some what comparable.
That would absolutley suck if that happened:banghead: . I think that I will be taking out the Minds. Not really sure what I'm going to replace them with, possibly Cruel Edict or maybe I will try Black Mail.