Why am I required to declare that im tapping the lands for mana? I clearly tapped the lands it should simply be a given that im tapping them for mana seeing as that is what they do. If you are required to announce that you are tapping lands for mana I've been in rules violation a least a thousand times or more because I simply tap my mana and play my spells as do most people I know. Most do not say "Oh i'm tapping this island for a blue mana."
Because of the below, and yes pretty much everybody who has ever played this game is in violation of the rules when tapping basic lands for mana as well as most lands that produce multiple types of mana due to the obvious nature of what is needed to pay for the spells. But you are still required, per the rules, to announce that you are activating an activated ability even if it is a mana ability.
605.3. Activating an activated mana ability follows the rules for activating any other activated ability (see rule 602.2), with the following exceptions:
602.2a The player announces that he or she is activating the ability. If an activated ability is being activated from a hidden zone, the card that has that ability is revealed. That ability is created on the stack as an object that’s not a card. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. Its controller is the player who activated the ability. The ability remains on the stack until it’s countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that's become blocked, the active player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
509.3. Third, for each blocking creature, the defending player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures it's blocking in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, a blocking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature it's blocking unless each creature ahead of that blocked creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
if I attack with a 1/6 and they block with three 2/2 creatures, since I can not assign lethal damage to the first creature in my damage assignment order, does this mean two of their creatures can't assign damage?
Also, If I attack with a 5/5 and they block with Drogskol Captain and Aurora Eidolon, If i choose the captain first, does it die making the spirit a 2/2 again and killing it next
what does the bold part of 509.3 mean?
509.2 is for attacking creatures that are being blocked by more than one blocking creature.
I.E. Attacker A being blocked by Blockers A, B, and C. Attacking player chooses the order the attacker will assign damage to the defenders. First B, then C, then A.
509.3 is for blocking creatures that are blocking more than one attacking creature, Two-Headed Dragon.
I.E. Blocker A blocking Attackers A and B. Attacking player chooses the order the defender will assign damage to the attackers. First B, then A.
Not for deciding which blocking creature (A, B or C) does its damage first as all combat damage is dealt simultaneously.
509.3 doesn't apply to either of your scenarios as in both there is only one attacking creature being blocked by any one blocker.
But lets take your second scenario and reverse it
If they attack with Drogskol Captain, 2/2, and Aurora Eidolon, 2/2 with boost from the captain to 3/3, and I block both with a Two-Headed Dragon, 4/4, if I choose to do damage to the captain first and the Eidolon second, then two damage is assigned and dealt to each, the dragon dies, the captain dies making the spirit a 2/2 again with 2 damage marked on it and killing it the next time SBAs are checked. Edit: typos and clarification
Hope that helps.
While the above answers are correct for APNAP order and triggered abilities, Whitemane Lion's triggered ability doesn't target and you choose which creature to return upon resolution of the ability. This means, regardless of turn, you can choose to return the creature that currently has the enchantment, including Whitemane Lion, even if they move Prison Term when its triggered ability resolves.
Whitemane Lion enters the battlefield
Whitemane Lion's trigger goes onto the stack
Prison Term's Trigger goes onto the stack
Players all pass priority - triggers begin to resolve
Prison Term's trigger resolves, moving it to Whitemane Lion
Whiteman Lion's trigger resolves, returning White Knighta creature you control to your hand
The defender orders the blockers, and you have to assign lethal damage to a creatures before going onto the next. The attacking creature can only assign as much damage as it's power in total during each combat, not to each creature it is in combat with.
The attacking player will order the blockers not the defender.
509.2. Second, for each attacking creature that's become blocked, the active player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures blocking it in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, an attacking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature that's blocking it unless each creature ahead of that blocking creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
Example: Vastwood Gorger is blocked by Llanowar Elves, Runeclaw Bear, and Serra Angel. Vastwood Gorger's controller announces the Vastwood Gorger's damage assignment order as Serra Angel, then Llanowar Elves, then Runeclaw Bear.
Conversely the defender will order the damage assignment to the attackers if any of the blockers can and are assigned to block more than one attacker. (Technically you always set the damage assignment order, but if only one on one creature combat is involved there is only one possible choice.)
509.3. Third, for each blocking creature, the defending player announces that creature's damage assignment order, which consists of the creatures it's blocking in an order of that player's choice. (During the combat damage step, a blocking creature can't assign combat damage to a creature it's blocking unless each creature ahead of that blocked creature in its order is assigned lethal damage.) This turn-based action doesn't use the stack.
Yeah, knew I couldn't get Child, thanks for the verification/explanation!
Actually you can bring the Child back.
Lets start at the combat damage step.
Assign and deal combat damage, Scion deals 6 to the Child 6/6 and 2 to the opponent, Child deals 6 to the Scion 8/7,
Scion's trigger triggers and waits to go on the stack
SBAs are checked and see a Child with lethal damage marked on it and destroy it,
Child's trigger triggers and waits to go on the stack,
No more SBAs so triggers go on the stack in APNAP order,
Scion's trigger first choosing targets (Child is in the graveyard at this poiint) Child is a valid target,
Child's trigger goes on the stack,
assuming no responses and everyone passes,
Child's trigger resolves destroying all non land permanents,
Scion's trigger resolves bringing back the targeted creature card (probably Child).
End result, everyone has their land and you have a Child of Alara.
Section 116 is what you are looking for in the CR. Specifically 116.3 for priority rules.
116.3. Which player has priority is determined by the following rules:
116.3a The active player receives priority at the beginning of most steps and phases, after any turn-based actions (such as drawing a card during the draw step; see rule 703) have been dealt with and abilities that trigger at the beginning of that phase or step have been put on the stack. No player receives priority during the untap step. Players usually don't get priority during the cleanup step (see rule 514.3).
116.3b The active player receives priority after a spell or ability (other than a mana ability) resolves.
116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
116.3d If a player has priority and chooses not to take any actions, that player passes. If any mana is in that player's mana pool, he or she announces what mana is there. Then the next player in turn order receives priority.
Note that you can also activate the Thoctar once and let that resolve and then before the Staff activation resolves activate the Thoctar again. It doesn't have to be done in a group of responded to activations but you can do it that way. Also note that if done more than once in response to the Staff but before combat damage is done, the Thoctar may not me big enough to kill the Baloth.
From Section 4.2 of the Tournament Rules document section on Tournament Shortcuts:
"Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intends to retain it. If he or she adds a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point."
Note that the tournament rules don't hold any weight in casual games unless your group wants to abide by them, but only in tournaments and per the CR quoted above, the default in non tournament games is for the person who last added something to the stack to immediately get priority back. This tournament shortcut is in place so that players don't have to continually state they are passing priority after doing something, this way it is assumed they pass unless they state otherwise.
Anonymous asked: Player 1 casts entwined Reap and Sow targeting his own land, then, holding priority, casts Radiate targeting his Reap and Sow. Player two uses Lux Cannon's ability to destroy the target of Reap and Sow. What happens?
1. Lux Cannon’s ability will destroy the targeted land.
2. Radiate will resolve and copy Reap and Sow for each other land.
3. Those copies will resolve one by one, with the controller searching out a new land each time.
4. The original Reap and Sow will be countered on resolution for having an illegal target.
I posed this question over at magicjudge.tumbler.com and got the below answer.
There is currently a debate about Library of Leng, a reveal effect (Melek), and a discard effect(Blast of Genius) on a certain forum board. If the card being discarded is put on top of the library instead of the graveyard, would the game see the characteristics in order to complete the effect? Someone dug up an O ruling dated 2010/2/14 that was specifically asked by you that state it doesn't work. Can you confirm this is still the case? A L2 on the board has sort of said it doesn't. Thanks
701.7c. If a card is discarded, but an effect causes it to be put into a hidden zone instead of into its owner’s graveyard without being revealed, all values of that card’s characteristics are considered to be undefined. If a card is discarded this way to pay a cost that specifies a characteristic about the discarded card, that cost payment is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the cost was paid (see rule 717, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
It doesn’t know anything about the card. Blast of Genius deals 0 damage.
Outside of sanctioned magic, I suppose this is correct. You guy have your own fixes that you can use if you want. The current official documents have some pretty good ones, but you're welcome to deviate if you so choose at kitchen table magic.
I agree the O'docs have some great fixes, but I disagree that the missed trigger policy is one of them.
Cheating implies knowledge that you're breaking a rule, and an intent to gain an advantage from it. I really like how the current documents have included this into their official definition as it matches up well with the definition you listed. In order to deliberately break the rules, you have to be trying to cheat. Accidentally forgetting something does not make one a cheater.
This is exactly what i said and I never said anything about accidentally forgetting a trigger.
They're documents that govern how we handle things like missed triggers in a fair and either casual or competitive way. You're right though, they're just documents that govern sanctioned play and have no bearing on casual "kitchen table magic". Do I care as a judge what you guys do at your own casual games? Not a bit. Heck, bribe or wager for all I care, beat each other up, and penalize it with a beer bong challenge round.
I agree, and am in no way suggesting not following these documents when playing in a tournament. This was mostly in response to the OPs comment that the person would apply these "rules" to a casual game where they have no weight.
You might be mistaking what a cheater is. Again, who care if it's not sanctioned? You can call a five year old a disgusting cheater for
playing with marked cards because he got some of his PB&J on his deck, and state that he was trying to manipulate the backs of his cards to gain an unfair advantage to continue his deplorable cheating habits. Doesn't make it true, but does make for a good read.
In a casual setting if I put a One Thousand Lashes on their creature I expect them to take one damage on each of their upkeeps, and if they don't and I ask if they did and they say I don't have to because you didn't announce it, then they are cheating. If they accidentaly forget it then that is fine we fix what needs to be fixed and move on.
If players miss a trigger in any type of play, it was "missed", forgotten, didn't happen, wasn't executed, never occurred, coulda-woulda-shoulda but didn't. Triggers are totally possible to miss. You didn't notice your trigger? You forgot it happened then. You both missed your trigger? Then you both forgot it happened.
Again by your own statement, it happened.
Quote from Nero, Star Trek »
It has happened! I watched it happen!
I saw it happen!
Don't tell me it didn't happen!
The game doesn't adjust life totals for this trigger that happened, but didn't actually happen, you two do. And if you missed it, you probably also missed the effect it had on the game (including my hypothetical life change).
So then I assume if someone drops a can of soup on your foot and you didn't notice it happened then your foot doesn't get hurt? A bit extreme but I think it gets to the point since we use the vending machine and grenade annologies all the time.
Now, in kitchen table casual, we could try to back up the game to the point of the error. Although that might be difficult if many actions have been made, and you two aren't really sure how you got to where you are now. A correct gamestate that was arrived to with a single incorrect actions isn't nearly as bad as attempting to make a correct gamestate by revealing and reversing a TON of strategic information, that may not even be reversed correctly.
But it isn't correct, the game state is flawed and, in my opinion, adjusting the current game state to the correct game state is always more preferable to an incorrect game state. If it is completely undo-able then end the game as a draw and start a new one. I don't understand why this isn't an option for judges at events, just call that game a draw, issue whatever warnings/penalties are necessary and let them start a new game.
You could also just apply the missed trigger right away, but that might not seem fair if it happened 5 turns ago, and would impact the now totally different game state. That trigger that whipped the board five turns ago that was missed? Yeah, it's going to kill 3 new dudes now. Finally you could just call the dude a cheater and kick him out of your house, or challenge him to a physical duel in order to defend your tables honor and cereal! But honestly, whatever man. This is a casual game? You can do whatever you want. IDGAF.
Now your thinking like a judge, not a problem most of the time since you are a judge, but why do we have to put the trigger on the stack and resolve it when it already did that. You only need to adjust what would have been affected at the time the trigger happened. And if it can't be agreed upon then start a new game and be more careful. And I wouldn't accuse someone of cheating out of spite, I would look for evidence of it first, specifically the aforementioned announcement that they didn't do something because the trigger wasn't announced/acknowledged.
Intentionally missing your opponents non-beneficial triggers is not cheating (if we follow the current IPG). Of course that's been the complete opposite before by older documents. This changes, and so do philosophies behind them. Though you seem not to be governed by these documents as your examples pertain to casual magic, so honestly follow whatever you think is fair when playing with friends. Just don't be surprised when they think what you think isn't fair either. :/
I do believe this sums up my point exactly, it is only not treated as cheating because of the current IPG. Without the IPG this would be cheating as you are trying to gain an advantage by ignoring a game rule.
That statement is only true in a fictitious world in which nobody ever makes mistakes. Triggers are supposed to happen automatically, but players need to execute those automatic instructions. Since players are human beings, they occasionally forget to execute those automatic instructions. That's as true in casual play as it is in tournament play.
Fictitious world or not that is still how the rules of the game work and that doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means the players are unaware that it happened. Hence my statement in bold below. So I still stand by the statement that triggers are impossible to miss but the effect of the trigger can go unnoticed for the rest of the game and as such puts the integrity of that game in question.
Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments).
Incorrect. Cheating by deliberately "missing" a trigger will get you disqualified. The "Missed Trigger" rule only applies to cases where players accidentally miss a trigger.
I wasn't completely clear here, I meant this as a player ignoring his opponents forgotten beneficial trigger, IE One Thousand Lashes's upkeep trigger, is cheating by the game rules but isn't penalized. Not the player ignoring their own trigger, IE upkeep trigger granted by Pillory of the sleepless.
Well, thanks guys. Literally all that happened between me declaring the attack and him trying to block was a few seconds of silence. It wasn't at an actual FNM, but I was curious about higher levels because the guy argued pretty heavily with me about it and informed me that it's a scummy but totally legit rule and he would gladly use it against me at FNM and even in casual because it benefits him to make me miss the trigger and he's perfectly allowed to do it.
Just want to point out that outside of a tournament setting (casual), it is actually impossible to miss a trigger. Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments). It is cheating if they know a trigger was supposed to happen but ignored it in order to gain an advantage.
The IPG and JAR are the only reasons that triggers are handled a different way in tournaments and have no bearing on non tournament play.
Relevant trigger ability rules from MCR, note there is never a may in any of these.
603.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's trigger event, that ability automatically triggers. The ability doesn't do anything at this point.
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
Relevant tournament rule from MCR
100.6. Most _Magic_ tournaments (organized play activities where players compete against other players to win prizes) have additional rules covered in the _Magic: The Gathering_ Tournament Rules (found at <www.wizards.com/wpn/Events/Rules.aspx>). These rules may limit the use of some cards, including barring all cards from some older sets.
From TheFreeDictionary online
cheat (cht)
v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats
v.tr.
~
2. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
On a personal note, I have stopped playing in tournament settings because of the change to the trigger rules applied in the IPG as it allows players to cheat and not be penalized for it. And I have no problem calling my opponents cheaters in a casual game if they try to apply the tournament changes.
Originally posted by Charlotte Sable
Why the Progenitor Mimic trick doesn’t work:
So… by now you’ve probably heard of the silly combo, where Anthem effect + “naked” Progenitor Mimic + any clone = zomg, Progenitor Mimic with infi-billion token triggers! adfdsDDAdadsad!!!!`111!!!1~!@!
…except this doesn’t work…
And the reason why is kind of glaringly obviously. I’m quite disappointed in myself for not figuring this one out by myself.
So, we have our 1/1 Mimic that’s not copying anything, and we cast Clone. As Clone starts to resolve, we apply its replacement effect, and choose to have it copy the Mimic, so now it’s a Progenitor Mimic. Cool.
Progenitor Mimic also has a replacement effect, so that let’s us choose to copy something if we want, so we’ll copy Progenitor Mimic!
So now we have a Progenitor Mimic with a token-making trigger. Yay!
That was fun! Let’s have it copy the Mimic again!
So now we have a Progenitor Mimic with a token-making trigger. One. Not two.
Wait… what? But doesn’t the mimic get another token-making trigger? Well, no…. because it’s not copying itself. It’s copying the original Mimic, so we copy that and add a trigger. And that’s all.
That’s the flaw in the original combo. You’re always copying the same Mimic, which isn’t the one that’s about to enter the battlefield, so once you have a Mimic copy a Mimic, the result will always be the same: Progenitor Mimic with one token-making trigger.
That's good enough for me to believe it works in the rules but will be fixed. Still not sure I understand why, but maybe the update that fixes it will help explain that for me.
Here is the link
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2015/03/11/392381112/episode-609-the-curse-of-the-black-lotus?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium==nprnews&utm_content=20150312
Because of the below, and yes pretty much everybody who has ever played this game is in violation of the rules when tapping basic lands for mana as well as most lands that produce multiple types of mana due to the obvious nature of what is needed to pay for the spells. But you are still required, per the rules, to announce that you are activating an activated ability even if it is a mana ability.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/330071-how-was-reserve-list-created#c8
509.2 is for attacking creatures that are being blocked by more than one blocking creature.
I.E. Attacker A being blocked by Blockers A, B, and C. Attacking player chooses the order the attacker will assign damage to the defenders. First B, then C, then A.
509.3 is for blocking creatures that are blocking more than one attacking creature, Two-Headed Dragon.
I.E. Blocker A blocking Attackers A and B. Attacking player chooses the order the defender will assign damage to the attackers. First B, then A.
Not for deciding which blocking creature (A, B or C) does its damage first as all combat damage is dealt simultaneously.
509.3 doesn't apply to either of your scenarios as in both there is only one attacking creature being blocked by any one blocker.
But lets take your second scenario and reverse it
If they attack with Drogskol Captain, 2/2, and Aurora Eidolon, 2/2 with boost from the captain to 3/3, and I block both with a Two-Headed Dragon, 4/4, if I choose to do damage to the captain first and the Eidolon second, then two damage is assigned and dealt to each, the dragon dies, the captain dies making the spirit a 2/2 again with 2 damage marked on it and killing it the next time SBAs are checked.
Edit: typos and clarification
Hope that helps.
The attacking player will order the blockers not the defender.
Conversely the defender will order the damage assignment to the attackers if any of the blockers can and are assigned to block more than one attacker. (Technically you always set the damage assignment order, but if only one on one creature combat is involved there is only one possible choice.)
Actually you can bring the Child back.
Lets start at the combat damage step.
Assign and deal combat damage, Scion deals 6 to the Child 6/6 and 2 to the opponent, Child deals 6 to the Scion 8/7,
Scion's trigger triggers and waits to go on the stack
SBAs are checked and see a Child with lethal damage marked on it and destroy it,
Child's trigger triggers and waits to go on the stack,
No more SBAs so triggers go on the stack in APNAP order,
Scion's trigger first choosing targets (Child is in the graveyard at this poiint) Child is a valid target,
Child's trigger goes on the stack,
assuming no responses and everyone passes,
Child's trigger resolves destroying all non land permanents,
Scion's trigger resolves bringing back the targeted creature card (probably Child).
End result, everyone has their land and you have a Child of Alara.
Note that you can also activate the Thoctar once and let that resolve and then before the Staff activation resolves activate the Thoctar again. It doesn't have to be done in a group of responded to activations but you can do it that way. Also note that if done more than once in response to the Staff but before combat damage is done, the Thoctar may not me big enough to kill the Baloth.
Note that the tournament rules don't hold any weight in casual games unless your group wants to abide by them, but only in tournaments and per the CR quoted above, the default in non tournament games is for the person who last added something to the stack to immediately get priority back. This tournament shortcut is in place so that players don't have to continually state they are passing priority after doing something, this way it is assumed they pass unless they state otherwise.
http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/58017102017/player-1-casts-entwined-reap-and-sow-targeting-his-own
For those who don't like links:
Link for those who want it.
http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/52742334116/there-is-currently-a-debate-about-library-of-leng-a
By your own statement, it happened.
I agree the O'docs have some great fixes, but I disagree that the missed trigger policy is one of them.
This is exactly what i said and I never said anything about accidentally forgetting a trigger.
I agree, and am in no way suggesting not following these documents when playing in a tournament. This was mostly in response to the OPs comment that the person would apply these "rules" to a casual game where they have no weight.
In a casual setting if I put a One Thousand Lashes on their creature I expect them to take one damage on each of their upkeeps, and if they don't and I ask if they did and they say I don't have to because you didn't announce it, then they are cheating. If they accidentaly forget it then that is fine we fix what needs to be fixed and move on.
Again by your own statement, it happened.
So then I assume if someone drops a can of soup on your foot and you didn't notice it happened then your foot doesn't get hurt? A bit extreme but I think it gets to the point since we use the vending machine and grenade annologies all the time.
But it isn't correct, the game state is flawed and, in my opinion, adjusting the current game state to the correct game state is always more preferable to an incorrect game state. If it is completely undo-able then end the game as a draw and start a new one. I don't understand why this isn't an option for judges at events, just call that game a draw, issue whatever warnings/penalties are necessary and let them start a new game.
Now your thinking like a judge, not a problem most of the time since you are a judge, but why do we have to put the trigger on the stack and resolve it when it already did that. You only need to adjust what would have been affected at the time the trigger happened. And if it can't be agreed upon then start a new game and be more careful. And I wouldn't accuse someone of cheating out of spite, I would look for evidence of it first, specifically the aforementioned announcement that they didn't do something because the trigger wasn't announced/acknowledged.
I do believe this sums up my point exactly, it is only not treated as cheating because of the current IPG. Without the IPG this would be cheating as you are trying to gain an advantage by ignoring a game rule.
Fictitious world or not that is still how the rules of the game work and that doesn't mean that the trigger didn't happen, it just means the players are unaware that it happened. Hence my statement in bold below. So I still stand by the statement that triggers are impossible to miss but the effect of the trigger can go unnoticed for the rest of the game and as such puts the integrity of that game in question.
I wasn't completely clear here, I meant this as a player ignoring his opponents forgotten beneficial trigger, IE One Thousand Lashes's upkeep trigger, is cheating by the game rules but isn't penalized. Not the player ignoring their own trigger, IE upkeep trigger granted by Pillory of the sleepless.
Just want to point out that outside of a tournament setting (casual), it is actually impossible to miss a trigger. Triggers happen whether you want them to or not and if it is noticed that a trigger wasn't performed then it is up to you and your opponent to work out how to handle the effect that was missed (judges do this at tournaments). It is cheating if they know a trigger was supposed to happen but ignored it in order to gain an advantage.
The IPG and JAR are the only reasons that triggers are handled a different way in tournaments and have no bearing on non tournament play.
Relevant trigger ability rules from MCR, note there is never a may in any of these.
Relevant tournament rule from MCR
From TheFreeDictionary online
On a personal note, I have stopped playing in tournament settings because of the change to the trigger rules applied in the IPG as it allows players to cheat and not be penalized for it. And I have no problem calling my opponents cheaters in a casual game if they try to apply the tournament changes.
http://magicjudge.tumblr.com/post/49880206513/why-the-progenitor-mimic-trick-doesnt-work
For those who don't want to click the link
http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/49781724999/re-progenitor-mimic-really-the-ruling-is-actually
That's good enough for me to believe it works in the rules but will be fixed. Still not sure I understand why, but maybe the update that fixes it will help explain that for me.
Thanks.