I also knew a bunch of folks who loved kawigawa and hated mirodin becuase of affinity. I for one loved affinity and still play it. I dont know that many cards from KG would be good in vintage but legacy or edh there are a few.
Well, I mostly love Mirrodon for decks like MGA and Flores Red...Both were incredibly fun to play, and because of those two I was able to ramp my constructed rating to 1860 :).
One of the main reasons i hate the Kamigawa blokc is the mechanical phrashing on cards. Spirt or arcane to be exact. There as sevral cards in the block that are still viable in edh or legacy but are useless unless you make a block deck. And coming off the fun that Mirodin block had they just took a 180 and make the game boring and not worth investing in. Again this is just my take on things.
Most blocks are pretty lucky to have cards that are run in Vintage and Legacy.
And while I agree with you that Mirrodon was quite fun, I know of many people who hated it because of affinity.
Huh...I was expecting a lot more responses akin to this:
'Well, I'd just drag him him out of the store by his hair and proceed to beat the living hell out of him. I'm a 3rd degree blackbelt/Jui Jutsu master/MMA fighter/6'5, 215 lbs of pure muscle, so no one messes with me...'
People on these forums always seem to love letting everyone know they are complete badasses.
What your born into drastically affects your life.
But what you are born into does nothing to stop your from changing that situation.
At least in this country.
Which is 100% false, OF COURSE you can lock people up anyway. But, giving it a nice friendly "reason" makes people "feel better" about the whole thing.
Theres a reason we have a judicial system, ya know.
You can argue about "LEVELS" of responsibly, but your just being diluted if you think your environment does not affect you at all.
Never said it didn't.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. And it doesn't stop you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country.
It may make it harder, yes. But I never argued against that, either.
There being a law about shooting people or not does not prove or disprove free will. Stop being silly.
We are talking about societal free will. You asked for an example, I gave one. And instead of disproving it, you sidestep it with an emoticon.
Nice.
If you are talking about cosmic free will or whatever, then you should probably be heading to that thread.
"Brainwashing" is just an extreme example of how your environment affects you. But, yes, I am saying that if you grow up around high powered lawyers you'll have a different outlook on life than if you grow up around drug dealers. Since, you know, it's true.
Again, this point is not in contention.
But theres this thing called the law to persuade people against adopting certain bad habits from others. If they choose to ignore it, then that is not societies fault. It is their own.
What more do you want society to do?
Umm... yes it does?
If you have a 1/10000 chance of winning that has a correlation on your ability to be able to, as apposed to a 1/2 chance.
We aren't talking about the lottery. We are talking about free will.
HUGE difference. Nice try though.
I don't know, it makes more sense to me than your claim the past as no affect on the future.
You have a real bad habit of putting words in peoples mouths.
I never said it didn't. Not once. But the affect of white people on black culture has diminished to a point where it is negligible.
{G}PiLeDrIvEr, you don't have absolute free will (one might argue you don't have any free will, but let's table that).
Technically, you do.
But to live and prosper in a society such as this, you have to sacrifice some of that to reap the rewards.
And one of the things you need to sacrifice is the committing of an action that is deemed illegal under said society.
You are a product of your environment.
The environment being society.
And society says you should not be doing those things.
If you where born in 1800's you'd not be the man you are today. The same is true if your parents were super rich or super poor or whatever.
This is a fact.
Of course it is.
But none of that takes away your ability to think critically, and realize that partaking in certain actions, that YOU choose to partake in, can either negatively of positively affect your life.
You are acting like the black community brain washes it's people into a certain way of thinking.
It can influence, yes. But it cannot force.
If you're born in a ☺☺☺☺ty home, you are LESS LIKELY to be a fully functional member of society. It's simply true.
But you are still ABLE.
People like this whole "responsibility for your own actions" bull☺☺☺☺ because it makes them feel better about prisons.
This doesn't make sense.
The truth is we lock criminals up not, because they are "responsible for their own actions," (whatever the ☺☺☺☺ that means) but because we can't have them running around disrupting things.
Both are true.
If you aren't responsible for your actions, then you cannot be locked up in the first place.
Which leads us to the problem at hand. Is it the whiteman's fault many black people got a bad childhood, and thus are more likely to be criminals? Yes, yes it is. That is a simple fact, but it does not matter IN THE SLIGHTEST for fixing the problem.
That may have been in the past, but today is radically different than yesterday.
Like I said earlier, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. Over time, the white mans responsibility has dwindled to pretty much zero. The responsibility now solely rests in the hands of those who are in the position to make the most effective change.
If you have a drug conviction that does stop you from doing those things. Once you have a drug conviction, you can be legally discriminated against for all of these things.
No one is physically forcing black people to commit crime. Because they get convicted for drug offenses more is of no consequence to this.
So if no one is forcing black people to commit crime, it also follows that no one is physically stopping them from gaining employment.
It appears you're trying hard to be an apologist for criminality.
The original post I responded to was mystery saying the problems in the black community were "cultural", and that external factors did not exist.
You start off by first posting the 13%/60% statistic, in the middle of a debate about how 'whitey' is still bringing people down, and offered no explanation of said statistic.
Isn't that a safe bet to assume you were contributing that to malicious racism?
Although now that you've cleared that up, we can cut a lot of chaff from this debate. Because it seem's like we are mostly on the same page.
The disadvantage is brought about by the inherent unfairness of the system. Just because there is not some nefarious person sitting there plotting how to screw over black people does not mean that the end result cannot be unfairly racially biased.
Yes. And I agree.
Although I would probably blame the current system less, and past systems more.
It's not "playing the blame game", it's pointing out problems that need to be addressed.
For you, maybe not.
But many others seem to enjoy that game. It truly confounds me.
But crime is not all the same. Some people have the advantage of being able to get away with it.
And when you don't, you really shouldn't be doing it.
Or at all, for that matter. But thats beside the point.
Not by blatant individual racism, no. But certainly by inherent racism in the structure of our police and justice system.
Inherent racism is in our very genes.
But as I said earlier, I would imagine the force that has a heavier effect on this situation is the previous system that was accepted.
I don't know where you came up with the idea that I thought this was about blatantly racist cops or juries or whatever.
See above.
I'm glad you clarified it, but I still have not seen an explanation as to why you believe that statistic to be the way it is.
The thing that needs to be recognized is that that sort of blatant racism is not the only kind that exists, and not the only kind that can have a real effect on people's lives.
No doubt.
But then again, I recongnized that from the start.
But my belief is that hard work and dedication is more then enough to break those bonds. Life isn't fair, or easy. But it becomes much harder when you stop fighting for yourself.
How do you know that non-drug related crime rates are not inflated at all? You just pulled that "fact" out of thin air.
Because, for instance, if violent crime rates were to suddenly sky-rocket in a predominantly white community (not to say they are not already sometimes pretty high), then the arrest and conviction ratios would change to reflect that.
The number one job for law enforcement is public safety. When public safety becomes compromised, police interaction goes up to combat this. Regardless of the skin color of the community. Again, this seems like pretty basic common sense.
How is it that the extra police presence produces a disproportionate number of drug arrests, but has no effect on arrests for other crimes?
Because with most drug offense, you are out same day, if not the next. Pretty much the epitome of revolving door.
But violent offense carry much steeper punishments, and takes those criminals out of circulation for much longer periods.
This is exactly my point. Arrest rates are not the same as actual crime rates, though. As the drug example shows, it is very difficult to correlate the two.
Difficult, yes. But that doesn't stop us from trying :wink:.
Although I think you would shoulder the burden of proof on this one to show me that arrest rates for violent crimes are not proportionate to the actual, real rate of those offenses.
Quote from Tuss »
Hrm, yes, the "personal accountability" of children who are born to poor parents and into poor communities. It was really too bad that they chose to be raised by people who don't have the economic stability to do a good job of it due to themselves belonging to a group that has for hundreds of years been relegated to the lowest of all social ranks
Yes, it's unfortunate that not everybody has access to the same tools for success.
But last time I checked, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can nab a masters degree in about 4. And I'm also pretty sure that coming from poverty does not stop one from working 40 hours a week and spending wisely. Education really isn't as expensive as some would make you believe.
Personal accountability starts the moment you can actively work to better yourself. Before then, yes, it is a problem. And a sad one at that. But that's why society forces your child to get an education. If you can't force them as well, that's not really societies fault.
and actively been kept outside of academia, business and politics. This choice, arguably the first choice a person in this world makes, to me demonstrates a real lack of character. How regrettable.
This is where I have to throw up a :rolleyes:.
You still really believe it is active racism that keeps black people out of those areas?
Because I know plenty that seem to prove you wrong. In fact, theres at least 7 that live on my street alone.
You're trying to be cute with me but it's not going to work when you're wrong.
I wish I had a puppy dog emoticon to show you that I really CAN be cute.
The original point made was that black people do not face any systematic disadvantage.
They DO face disadvantages. Those disadvantages are formed in the family, not outside in the working world. Change in the family can only come from the family. Society can only do so much.
No one is physically stopping black people from getting a job, working hard, or working hard in school, and going to college.
The original debate was centered around white people and how big of a role they still play in this disadvantage.
If the average black person who uses drugs faces a much greater risk of incarceration than the average white person who uses drugs, that's a systematic disadvantage.
Brought about by whom?
It doesn't matter whether other black people commit other crimes, or whether black people are subject to more police scrutiny. The bottom line is that that puts a lot of black children into a fatherless family. Had those children been born to white parents, many of them would not be in that position. This disadvantage is real regardless of the reason.
Again, I never stated disadvantages don't exist. Because they do. It's unfortunate, yes.
But playing the blame game is no way to bring about change. Racism plays no part in these disadvantages. It's just an easy scape goat for those that don't want to take responsibility for the situations that they inevitably put themselves in.
The people who are being arrested and put in jail for minor drug crimes are not all the same people who are out committing serious crimes. It is not their fault that they live in a high crime area.
This makes no sense logically. Crime is crime. It doesn't matter what brings such heavy police presence, just that it's there. And if you get caught, you are going to jail.
Yes, people shouldn't do drugs. But people do, white and black alike. The difference is that white people are much more likely to get away with it, and go on raising their family.
Which isn't brought about by racism.
Further, the justice system is not perfect. Innocent people do go to jail all the time. I'm not saying it's because of some vast racism conspiracy or anything, but it is a real issue, and it does happen.
Innocent people of all colors.
Of course the system isn't perfect. Nothing is. But thats not what is being argued. Racism is. Widespread racism, at that.
What does this have to do with what I said? I am absolutely not saying that being fatherless is an excuse to break the law.
Then we agree.
I am saying that if your father is put in jail, that's not your fault, but it does put you at a disadvantage.
Of course it's not. And of course it does.
But that's not racism. That's called cause and effect.
I'm not saying it's because some police officer somewhere hates black people and decides to throw them in jail for no reason. The structure of the system in place, however, is such that the disparate affect on the races is very real.
Then you agree it's not caused from blatant racism.
Finally we are making some progress.
I don't see how this is a response to what was quoted. My point is that if you claim that the black drug arrest rate is inflated because of high police presence, you must also accept that the black arrest rate for other crimes is similarly inflated.
Except you are missing the point. Non drug related crimes are not inflated at all. If crime rates were even between white and black communities, then so would arrests.
But they aren't. Crime rates among black communities are usually higher, which brings about more arrests.
Drug arrests may be, but that is caused by higher crime rates across the board in those communities. It's unfortunate, yes, but if these people were not breaking the law in the first place, they wouldn't have to deal with this inflation.
I will be very surprised to see those statistics. Note that I am talking about actual crime rates, not arrest rates or reporting rates or conviction rates. When talking about drug rates, it's important that we have both the actual use percentage (13%) and the arrest/conviction percentage (~60%). The problem would not be clear if we only had arrest/conviction percentages.
It'd be much harder to find an actual crime rate then it is to find an actual drug use rate. People don't exactly admit to committing serious crime when asked.
The best thing you are probably going to get is arrest rates.
A black person who is arrested for a minor drug crime where a white person would not have been because of some "higher police interaction" theory is being impacted by the crimes others have committed. The point is that ultimately, regardless of the cause, drug arrests place a very high burden on black families, and do not place a very high burden on white families.
The cause is very relevant to the discussion. Nice try in trying to dismiss it, though.
Living in a high crime area does not make an individual responsible for those crimes.
It does when they are the one that commits them.
Police don't just nab black people from the sidewalk and throw them in jail, as much as you may think they do. If I live in a high crime area, with a high police concentration, I wouldn't mind at all (other than the high crime part), because I don't do anything that would throw me in jail.
If Bob Black Guy is arrested for marijuana possession, but Walter White Guy isn't, it's not because Bob has been out committing murders and assaults and robberies. Bob's child who is then left fatherless, while Walter's child is not, is even farther removed from guilt.
How is being fatherless an excuse to break the law?
I still don't understand this logic. Being raised without a father removes your critical thinking abilities?
Ultimately, the point here is that black children are shockingly likely to have a father in prison for drugs, despite the fact that that father as an individual is not any more likely to be involved in drugs than a white father. This is a systematic, pronounced disadvantage facing black children.
Which has already been addressed.
Furthermore, it is worth noting that if the black drug arrest rate is inflated by this police interaction theory, or whatever other reason you might want to give, it is reasonable to assume that the black arrest rate for other crimes in general is similarly inflated.
Police are not omni-present. They go to the areas with the highest crime rates. Thus, there are more arrests when you have an area that has a higher crime rate.
And it's not a theory, it's common sense.
While it is not too difficult to obtain actual drug use rates by way of survey (since people are generally willing to admit to that in an anonymous setting), there is no corresponding way to gather statistics about actual crime rate for more serious offenses like murder or robbery.
I'll be more than happy to look those up for you, but it will have to wait until tommorrow, since I have work early.
As such, while I don't doubt that blacks are probably over-represented as perpetrators of more serious crimes, I would caution against drawing that conclusion from statistics based on arrest rates or similar figures.
Black people are still feeling the effects of being forced into the lowest of all social classes for hundreds of years. A status as property without any legal rights or protections from even the worst of crimes is not something you simply spring back from. The kind of society that would allow such a thing doesn't magically become a utopia of harmony, either. Black people have for these reasons not had the level of economic and household stability that white people built on slavery and the social system that allowed for slavery.
So, you agree that there is nothing pysically stopping black people from elevating themselves in society?
What you said basically amount to 'it's all in their head.'
Which it is.
I'm not saying that there is no difference between cultures. What I AM saying is that it is not currently the fault of the white community.
The black community did not start this problem, but it seems that the majority (at least those in poverty) refuse to take responsibility for their situation. They would much rather sit there and blame the major 'flaws' in the system, when there really are no such flaws.
Unfortunately, life isn't always fair. Poverty and family instability may foster a negative attitude in regards to established education, but that does nothing in taking those opportunities away.
That the both of you don't understand this obvious fact is just depressing and means that you unfortunately can't participate in a meaningful discussion on how to address these problems.
That you can't see how any of this boils down to personal accountability is quite depressing to me, and means that unfortunately you won't be able to have a logical discussion on the matter.
Well, I mostly love Mirrodon for decks like MGA and Flores Red...Both were incredibly fun to play, and because of those two I was able to ramp my constructed rating to 1860 :).
Most blocks are pretty lucky to have cards that are run in Vintage and Legacy.
And while I agree with you that Mirrodon was quite fun, I know of many people who hated it because of affinity.
I still don't understand the amount of hate that Kamigawa recieves...Kamigawa introduced an incredible amount of tournament-worthy cards.
And it had an amazing flavor, too boot.
But you've got Toph in your avatar! How can you not be a badass?
Note: She's my fav character in that whole series :).
'Well, I'd just drag him him out of the store by his hair and proceed to beat the living hell out of him. I'm a 3rd degree blackbelt/Jui Jutsu master/MMA fighter/6'5, 215 lbs of pure muscle, so no one messes with me...'
People on these forums always seem to love letting everyone know they are complete badasses.
I'm proud of you guys :crying:.
Hell, just look at my ex...she downgraded from me to an absolute gargoyle...
...but a gargoyle with a job :(.
But what you are born into does nothing to stop your from changing that situation.
At least in this country.
Theres a reason we have a judicial system, ya know.
Never said it didn't.
But it doesn't force you to do anything. And it doesn't stop you from attaining things that are accesible to everyone else in this country.
It may make it harder, yes. But I never argued against that, either.
We are talking about societal free will. You asked for an example, I gave one. And instead of disproving it, you sidestep it with an emoticon.
Nice.
If you are talking about cosmic free will or whatever, then you should probably be heading to that thread.
Again, this point is not in contention.
But theres this thing called the law to persuade people against adopting certain bad habits from others. If they choose to ignore it, then that is not societies fault. It is their own.
What more do you want society to do?
We aren't talking about the lottery. We are talking about free will.
HUGE difference. Nice try though.
You have a real bad habit of putting words in peoples mouths.
I never said it didn't. Not once. But the affect of white people on black culture has diminished to a point where it is negligible.
What's physically stopping you from grabbing a gun and shooting a family member dead?
Nothing, save for the legal ramifications.
Sounds like free will to me.
Sure someone can.
But I'd like for you to try to prove to me that the black community is brainwashing it's people, en masse, towards detriment.
Because being less likely has no correlation to being able.
I don't get it...is this supposed to be a logical response?
Technically, you do.
But to live and prosper in a society such as this, you have to sacrifice some of that to reap the rewards.
And one of the things you need to sacrifice is the committing of an action that is deemed illegal under said society.
The environment being society.
And society says you should not be doing those things.
Of course it is.
But none of that takes away your ability to think critically, and realize that partaking in certain actions, that YOU choose to partake in, can either negatively of positively affect your life.
You are acting like the black community brain washes it's people into a certain way of thinking.
It can influence, yes. But it cannot force.
But you are still ABLE.
This doesn't make sense.
Both are true.
If you aren't responsible for your actions, then you cannot be locked up in the first place.
That may have been in the past, but today is radically different than yesterday.
Like I said earlier, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. Over time, the white mans responsibility has dwindled to pretty much zero. The responsibility now solely rests in the hands of those who are in the position to make the most effective change.
No one is physically forcing black people to commit crime. Because they get convicted for drug offenses more is of no consequence to this.
So if no one is forcing black people to commit crime, it also follows that no one is physically stopping them from gaining employment.
It appears you're trying hard to be an apologist for criminality.
You start off by first posting the 13%/60% statistic, in the middle of a debate about how 'whitey' is still bringing people down, and offered no explanation of said statistic.
Isn't that a safe bet to assume you were contributing that to malicious racism?
Although now that you've cleared that up, we can cut a lot of chaff from this debate. Because it seem's like we are mostly on the same page.
Yes. And I agree.
Although I would probably blame the current system less, and past systems more.
For you, maybe not.
But many others seem to enjoy that game. It truly confounds me.
And when you don't, you really shouldn't be doing it.
Or at all, for that matter. But thats beside the point.
Inherent racism is in our very genes.
But as I said earlier, I would imagine the force that has a heavier effect on this situation is the previous system that was accepted.
See above.
I'm glad you clarified it, but I still have not seen an explanation as to why you believe that statistic to be the way it is.
No doubt.
But then again, I recongnized that from the start.
But my belief is that hard work and dedication is more then enough to break those bonds. Life isn't fair, or easy. But it becomes much harder when you stop fighting for yourself.
Because, for instance, if violent crime rates were to suddenly sky-rocket in a predominantly white community (not to say they are not already sometimes pretty high), then the arrest and conviction ratios would change to reflect that.
The number one job for law enforcement is public safety. When public safety becomes compromised, police interaction goes up to combat this. Regardless of the skin color of the community. Again, this seems like pretty basic common sense.
Because with most drug offense, you are out same day, if not the next. Pretty much the epitome of revolving door.
But violent offense carry much steeper punishments, and takes those criminals out of circulation for much longer periods.
Difficult, yes. But that doesn't stop us from trying :wink:.
Although I think you would shoulder the burden of proof on this one to show me that arrest rates for violent crimes are not proportionate to the actual, real rate of those offenses.
Yes, it's unfortunate that not everybody has access to the same tools for success.
But last time I checked, it doesn't take multiple generations to pull oneself out of poverty. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can nab a masters degree in about 4. And I'm also pretty sure that coming from poverty does not stop one from working 40 hours a week and spending wisely. Education really isn't as expensive as some would make you believe.
Personal accountability starts the moment you can actively work to better yourself. Before then, yes, it is a problem. And a sad one at that. But that's why society forces your child to get an education. If you can't force them as well, that's not really societies fault.
This is where I have to throw up a :rolleyes:.
You still really believe it is active racism that keeps black people out of those areas?
Because I know plenty that seem to prove you wrong. In fact, theres at least 7 that live on my street alone.
I wish I had a puppy dog emoticon to show you that I really CAN be cute.
They DO face disadvantages. Those disadvantages are formed in the family, not outside in the working world. Change in the family can only come from the family. Society can only do so much.
No one is physically stopping black people from getting a job, working hard, or working hard in school, and going to college.
The original debate was centered around white people and how big of a role they still play in this disadvantage.
Brought about by whom?
Again, I never stated disadvantages don't exist. Because they do. It's unfortunate, yes.
But playing the blame game is no way to bring about change. Racism plays no part in these disadvantages. It's just an easy scape goat for those that don't want to take responsibility for the situations that they inevitably put themselves in.
This makes no sense logically. Crime is crime. It doesn't matter what brings such heavy police presence, just that it's there. And if you get caught, you are going to jail.
Which isn't brought about by racism.
Innocent people of all colors.
Of course the system isn't perfect. Nothing is. But thats not what is being argued. Racism is. Widespread racism, at that.
Then we agree.
Of course it's not. And of course it does.
But that's not racism. That's called cause and effect.
Then you agree it's not caused from blatant racism.
Finally we are making some progress.
Except you are missing the point. Non drug related crimes are not inflated at all. If crime rates were even between white and black communities, then so would arrests.
But they aren't. Crime rates among black communities are usually higher, which brings about more arrests.
Drug arrests may be, but that is caused by higher crime rates across the board in those communities. It's unfortunate, yes, but if these people were not breaking the law in the first place, they wouldn't have to deal with this inflation.
It'd be much harder to find an actual crime rate then it is to find an actual drug use rate. People don't exactly admit to committing serious crime when asked.
The best thing you are probably going to get is arrest rates.
The cause is very relevant to the discussion. Nice try in trying to dismiss it, though.
It does when they are the one that commits them.
Police don't just nab black people from the sidewalk and throw them in jail, as much as you may think they do. If I live in a high crime area, with a high police concentration, I wouldn't mind at all (other than the high crime part), because I don't do anything that would throw me in jail.
How is being fatherless an excuse to break the law?
I still don't understand this logic. Being raised without a father removes your critical thinking abilities?
Which has already been addressed.
Police are not omni-present. They go to the areas with the highest crime rates. Thus, there are more arrests when you have an area that has a higher crime rate.
And it's not a theory, it's common sense.
I'll be more than happy to look those up for you, but it will have to wait until tommorrow, since I have work early.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
So, you agree that there is nothing pysically stopping black people from elevating themselves in society?
What you said basically amount to 'it's all in their head.'
Which it is.
I'm not saying that there is no difference between cultures. What I AM saying is that it is not currently the fault of the white community.
The black community did not start this problem, but it seems that the majority (at least those in poverty) refuse to take responsibility for their situation. They would much rather sit there and blame the major 'flaws' in the system, when there really are no such flaws.
Unfortunately, life isn't always fair. Poverty and family instability may foster a negative attitude in regards to established education, but that does nothing in taking those opportunities away.
That you can't see how any of this boils down to personal accountability is quite depressing to me, and means that unfortunately you won't be able to have a logical discussion on the matter.