Quote from kpacaVarieties
 Vegetarian oyster sauce
Vegetarian oyster sauce prepared from mushrooms, often oyster mushrooms, is also popular and generally lower in price. It may contain more taste enhancers if less mushroom extract is used to reduce costs.
You could just use that.
Quote from DaggertoothIt gladdens my heart that you still consider "meat of some sort" as basic ingredients.
I even substituted tofu for the vegetarians. To add to an old heated debate we had a bit ago....Tofu is awesome alone or added to something, ya'll just weird :sweat:... Not sure Its edible for vegan though. I suspect there's egg somewhere in the eggroll. Plus I know Blod doesn't eat anything with animal in the name, like Eggplant or Salmon berries (like raspberry only salmon colored).
Quote from DaggertoothAfterall, You can't get a baby in one month by making nine women pregnant.
Quote from DaggertoothI don't want to get into this again. Just know that this meaningless term has driven policy on the local, state wide, and national scale. And is probably why the three main philosophies dedicated to the environment, environmentalists, conservationists, and preservationists, disagree with each other so much despite a common goal. People define it, the definition varies between organizations, but it still drives policy.
Quote from DaggertoothIt's actually easy to be stuck up on anything and everything. You don't have to be an environmentalist or vegan and be stuck up. Helps if you actively change your lifestyle though, then you have action and words backing a perceived superiority. Ever see that south park episode with the hybrids and the killer smug?
Actual health is debatable, since a normal diet of a vegan and omnivore isn't much different. Assuming the omnivore intakes a proper amount of veggies. The unhealthiness of the respective diets revolve around the type of food, concentrations of that type, and location of where they are processed. An omni eating pure organic food and suplimenting his/her diet with free range animals and even wild game will be healthy. vegan wouldn't be healthier. Blod might disagree with me here, but then I'll just adjust the amount of meat allowable in that scenario so nyeh. It's all about how careful you are about selecting your diet and how much you are willing to spend. Industrialized food, both animal and plant, are chock full of chemicals, hormones, and other unhealthy aspects. Unhealthy for people and unhealthy for the environment. We've even genetically altered plants in a way to be their own pesticide and to keep longer shelf lives. Tomatoes are genetically altered to have a long shelf life by turning red early. That is to say a natural tomato would be green on the vine accumulating nutrients as it matures, then be ripe, red, and delicious for it's short existence. Green tomatoes are lacking, but since they are red early they can sit on the shelf for weeks. That's the reason why higher end restaurants will advertise vine ripened tomatoes. That's the health of our food...both vegetarian and meat have had the quality sucked out of them in the industrialized process. Our society is too hung up on quantity to care any more than that.
Oh this last point could be debatable. But at this point we are at a moral impasse. From what I understand, you define morality as individualistic. That is the individual species has value. I hold true that the individual does not matter, but the species as a whole has value, and that to maintain the species survival the ecosystem needs to be preserved. You also maintain that all individuals have an inherent equal value...which I would disagree with merely because I already disagree with the value of the individual.
It does astonish me that your moral code seems to abhor the mistreatment of a gnat, but could care less at the complete extinction of...say...tigers. It is really hard for me to wrap my head around that.
I also have a hard time seeing how applicable your moral code is. It would seem that the guilt from indirect killing of individuals would be overwhelming. I know if I indirectly killed something I viewed as an equal, like another human, I would be incredibly guilt-torn. Beyond that, every conservation, restoration, and preservation project would pose ethical dilemmas. Re-introduction of wolves would cause the death of numerous individual herbivores, but no reintroduction causes excess loss of vegetation and deaths of several other individuals of other species. Allowing herbivores to overpopulate without control will indirectly cause the deaths of thousands of individuals when the population crashes. Doing nothing causes individualistic deaths, doing something causes deaths....what can you do? How can you function?
Oh come now. Nick obviously doesn't hold that non-human life has human like value and if he doesn't view a technologically superior race as innately superior then at the very least he's acknowledging that there's little we could do to stop them. Cognitive dissonance would only ring if he viewed it as a moral issue...which apparently he does not.
Bah! Semantics. Probably something "hard core" vegetarians and vegans made up to differentiate from those beneath them. I'd bet those who ate fish or chicken by and large would say they were vegetarians. Just like Mormons would argue till they were blue in the face that they are Christians while Christains would deny Mormons a place within their ranks.
Quote from DaggertoothIn a way I can kind of understand this mindset. Oh I can disagree with it, but I can understand. When someone's definition of morality is set to a perceived higher standard then its only natural to perceive those who don't meet that standards as...well less standardful. Growing up in Utah I saw a lot of this. First of all they perceived themselves superior just cause I wasn't Mormon and condemned to hell by default. Then it was cause I had no problem drinking alcoholic beverages. They'd try to convert me and move me away from my wicked ways...but you could tell they had a bit of snobby "I'm better than you" about them.
I can see how some people, who take these standards of veganisms and environmentalism as an ethical and moral priority, can perceive others as inferior. They take what they perceive as an intellectual and sophisticated approach. Higher class, filled with high valued refined socialites who believe they are making a difference. We all perceive ourselves in one way or another compared to others...thats natural, if not a bit frustrating.
I like to perceive myself as more feral. In a pinch I'll eat anything that moves, I sleep on the ground, ten second rule is a way of life, and my ecological responsibility is to burn it. More complex, but that's it in a nutshell.
Quote from CyanHopefully they'll be enlightened/passive, and won't eat us/turn is into slave labor.
Quote from DaggertoothWell you weren't suppose to mention that. However that is simply the product of our industrialized meat process. There are ways to raise beef without those hyped up food pens and without harming the environment. In fact much of the landscape of the US had heavy grazing for 10,000 years and much much heavier grazing with the mega fauna for millions of years before. Many of these areas are semi-arid and don't produce a strong stand of crops without irrigation, thus running a few heads of cattle across the landscape in some places may not only be environmentally sustainable, but necessary to maintain the historical ecological status of the area.
Quote from kpacaNo, It's actually a common fact. Incisors are designed to tear meat. As the child of a dental hygenist, I am somewhat learned on such things.
Quote from kpacaI personally think the idea that there is something morally wrong with consuming animals is preposterous, but feel free to explain to me why this is true.
Quote from CyanThere are no ethical considerations.
This is my problem with some vegetarians. Some choose this lifestyle because, as JJ described, they feel it is more healthy, and are willing to take the necessary dietary supplements(and you are kidding yourself if you say that they're not necessary). That is fine. Honestly, they're probably right. I just don't care enough to bother with it, and like I said, I like the taste of meat.
Then there are others. People that feel that society has stepped on them, and do whatever they can to rebel. Eventually they often end up at this point, where they give up eating meat, and feel empowered by it. Rather than simply face their own shortcomings and insecurities, they take comfort in suddenly being 'better' than their fellow man, because they've made a lifestyle choice that means some animals don't die. But seriously, only you care. The idea that you are morally superior here is just nonsense pandering, that people in this category feel necessary to put forth because it helps them mask their own personal shortcomings and insecurities. Animals eat other animals; people eat animals. There is nothing morally wrong with it, only the delusion of such.
Quote from CyanA bunch of stuff
Quote from DaggertoothI'm curious Blod, You're largely ethically oriented. Why then is it acceptable for the destruction of habitat for farming? I'm thinking about habitats like the Palouse prairie, which has had about a 95% conversion to wheat and may be considered as one of the first extinct habitats; and the tall grass prairie of the great plains which has had about 80% or so converted to agriculture? Vegetarianism doesn't eat those animals that lived in those habitats, but they'll go extinct nonetheless...
Quote from kpacaWell, some of our teeth actually are designed for meat consumption.
Quote from kpacaThat said, I don't understand why if I enjoy meat, I shouldn't eat meat. Don't try to tell me I just "think I enjoy meat because I'm weak minded". I actually enjoy meat, it tastes different than some broccoli or a summer salad, and I defy you to find me a soy bean product which tastes as good as a filet mignon. Just like I may eat a slice of chocolate cake because I enjoy it, I eat meat because I enjoy it, and I don't see what's wrong with that.
Quote from CyanHonestly, I don't have anywhere near the discipline necessary to be a Vegetarian. I don't want to have to take a bunch of vitamins just to make up for necessary elements(Vitamin B, Calcium, Omega-3, etc) that I can get just from eating the things that I like.
Quote from CyanAnd also, I agree with Chris. Man has been eating meat for millions of years, and some of our teeth are obviously intended for this, or at least have evolved to accomodate it.
Quote from CyanAs for the moral/ethical imperative of being a vegetarian vs. eating meat, please just give it up. For one thing, all of the examples that you provided are terrible. Shooting people/raping people/molesting children are so outrageously different than eating meat(even if you have to make the pretentious 'eating meat is murder' leap). They are animals, and that's it. Human life has significantly more value than animal life. There is not even a comparison.
Quote from CyanI like my life, and my lifestyle choices. I don't feel compelled to peddle them to anyone else. Maybe you should stop and wonder why you feel the need to do this? Who are you really trying to convince?
Quote from kpacaPlus, I really don't see the point.