Hey everyone, long time no see. I am looking for some feedback on a MTG website I threw together the other day, http://mtgbuzz.com. Basically it aggregates MTG content into one place so you don't have to go around to a bazzilion sites everyday looking for the article you want. I'd love to hear MTGSalvation's feedback, particularly any websites I should add, I'm sure there are some sites I have left out. Thanks guys.
Sorry mods if this is too spammy, if it is please just delete it and forget it ever happened.
The time has come for me and I have decided to quit Magic and consequently leave the forums. I am currently in the process of selling my collection and once I get that sorted out I will be done with the game forever. It has been a difficult decision because all of the things I learned and people I met through the game. I never could have imagined starting this game four years ago as a 12 year old kid that I would have taken it so far and enjoyed it so much. In the end however it is the right decision for me to make. I just wanted to thank the Vintage community and the Magic community overall and say goodbye.
The issue I see with staple lists is tthat hey ebb and flow with the metagame. For instance quite a few cards used before Gifts was restricted no longer see play with Gush unrestricted. You still have a core set of unshaken good cards, Force, Fetches, Brainstorm etc. but the rest of the deck can change drastically. You also run into the issue of defining the list, whether you include fringe cards that are only used in one or two decks. If I was getting into Vintage I would choose one good deck that includes Fetches, Duals and Force of Will; staples that will never leave the format. Buy all the cards you need to build the deck, learn the deck by playtesting it, and then go from there.
Tarmogoyf is a very strong beatstick so it should be no surprise fish can use it as a clock. It also fills a very important role in GAT. Against decks like Fish and Stax the GAT player can simply run out an early Goyf and protect it long enough to win. Dryad doesn't do this as well because you can't grow it as fast when your opponent is locking you down and it is hurt by bounce. I wouldn't go as far as to maindeck it in most metagames, but right now it is a strong card in the board. This might change as Stax builds become more creature heavy and people begin compensating for Goyf.
The Dreadnought build is an interesting innovation for the Fish archetype. You have your standard Trinket Mage toolbox as well as Nought to get into play with Stifle, which can also be used to hit Fetches and other activated abilities. Nought is not it's only plan however, it is just a Fish deck that happens to run Nought to put on early pressure. Another thing to note is that virtually all the decks are running 5+ artifact mana sources but Null Rod is seeing no play as a mana denial effect.
Looking at the format at this point I don't think Gush will be restricted January 1st. Gush decks are good but they are certainly not taking up anything near 100% of the metagame. Lorwyn will shake up the format a bit and I think it will shift away from Gush decks and more towards Prison decks. A lot of it will also depend on the latest SCG results and the impact they have on the tournaments thereafter. The Day 1 results show 3 Gush decks in the T8, which is a good showing but far from dominating the format. I think Wizards will let Gush play out for at least one more B/R change before making a decision on it.
I don't imply. If I want to say something, I simply say it. I am not an expert in Vintage, as my lifetime rating is only something like 1650. I am a decent Vintage player, I tear up the local tournaments, but that doesn't mean that I am an expert or that I am credible.
Vroman is credible. If you want to read something that he wrote, or Smmenen, go on over to TMD. They write there. <Shrug>. This site doesn't have to fill every Magic niche. When it tries, and it fails (because it inevitably will, because even Wizards fails at it, and they make this game), it should be pointed out.
I think that Jank Golem wrote a fine article. But I wouldn't use it to accurately predict which cards are going to make an "impact" in Vintage, if only because our definitions differ. I don't think that a card is impacting that format until a deck gets named after it. Porting four-of into an existing archetype is targeted hate, not an "impact". I am not saying, as people assume, that he did a bad job. I am saying that he did not do a perfect job and that the article did not have what I was looking for.
Get over yourselves. Jank Golem is the only one who could have been offended, and even he wasn't. He took it with credulity and pointed out key facts. And he earned my respect for it. The rest of you? You didn't even write it. What's your problem?
Harkius
My purpose of this set review was to cover all cards from Lorwyn that could be played in Vintage. If I was only covering the cards that would get a deck named after them I would not be doing a good and thorough job. In fact you wouldn't have a set review at all because I doubt any cards from Lorwyn will get a deck named after them. In the article I noted and heavily reviewed the cards I thought would make a large impact, Thoughtseize and Thorn of Amethyst. I also reviewed cards that will see a smaller amount of play and cards on the fringe of playability. We must look at all these cards because Vintage gets so few cards every set and it is important to find the impact of all of them. If you do not look at all the playable cards then you are not looking at the entire format and will not be able to fully comprehend it.
What makes an article less credible is it's content not the writer. If you felt the theory behind my cards was incomplete or the conclusions I drew were incorrect then fine. I take offense when you take an Ad Hominem position and discount the validity of the article purely on those grounds. If you look over on TMD I have posted a thread about this article and two of my previous Vintage articles. I have received positive and constructive feedback about my articles from TMD and have been encouraged by several members to continue writing. I still place a huge amount of value in the mtgsalvation community, first for them for giving me a great place to publish my article and secondly as a place to bring new players into the Vintage format and take place in serious discussion.
As I stated in the article I agree that Thoughtseize and Thorn are the only cards virtually guaranteed to make an impact in Vintage. It is still however important to review and consider the other seven cards.
I thought about including Moonglove Extract in the list but I cannot see it being played over more versatile choices like Barbarain Ring, Powder Keg or Pyrite Spellbomb.
On Mirror Entity it is important to remember that it is only mana intensive the turn you cast it. Once Mirror is on the board you can use your mana to cast disruption pieces until you are able to alpha strike the opponent. Even if you are waiting for the alpha strike Miror Entity can get the job done faster than Grunt or Goyf. The initial mana cost is a drawback and to support it and other high costed disruption pieces Fish may revert to running off color artifact mana. In my personal opinion Mirror Entity will be played in some Fish decks to speed up their clock.
If you can afford them Force of Will and Dual lands would obviously help the deck. Some of the changes do depend on your metagame so keep that in mind. I would cut the 4 Engineered Explosives and 4 Ghastly Demise, they don't fit the game plan of GAT. For you creature base I would try splashing green for something like 4 Quiron Dryad and 2 Psychatog. Next 4 Merchant Scroll is necessary to find and abuse Gush with [card]Fastbond/card], which you should also add. It might be best to keep Opt over Ponder here because you rely on Counterspell as your only hard counter. Lastly I would cut the 4 Cephalid Coliseum for more basics/fetches/duals. I didn't cover all the card choices fully but I would be happy to provide a more thorough explanation to back up any of the suggestions.
Excellent article but I would question the inclusion of Sower of Temptation and Stutterspell Sprite. Both paragraphs extolled relative virtues only to finish with: This won't see play.
There are two reasons I chose to include Sower and Sprite. On their face both cards seem borderline playable, so they deserve some sort of explanation. Secondly both cards have been discussed online and added to tentative decklists; so they have some relevancy.
Poor Portent. It really wants to be considered as one of the top cantrips, but alas, it doesn't even get a mention over Opt.
Portent is something to consider, but I cannot see it being played because it is a slow trip. The only deck that plays non Brainstorm cantrips is GAT which does not need to screw over the opponents topdecks. GAT does want their card right here, right now, not a turn later after missing a crucial land drop or spell.
Half, or more, of these cards will never see play in Vintage.
Thoughtseize (of course) will. Thorn of Amethyst might in Fish.dec.
One comment that I wanted to make is that there haven't been any good options since Mirrodin for anything except Fish. Does this reek of poor design to anyone else? There are niches in Vintage (ask Smmenen) that can be explored that won't jank other Constructed formats. But, Wizards, instead, simply ignores them and keeps shoving creatures down our throats for set after set...
Thanks, guys. We all love the lowest common denominator.
Harkius
Thorn will not see play in every Fish deck, but decks abusing mana denial and the other nine available sphere effects will want it. Wizards gives a few gems to Vintage every set, enough to prevent Vintage from becoming stagnant but still preserving it's integrity.
This thread is for the discussion of my latest article, The Whole Nine Cards: Lorwyn in Vintage. We would be grateful if you would let us know what you think, but please keep your comments on topic.
You can't cut Leylines. Not only is it amazing against soooo many Vintage decks, it also protects your Bridges.
The problem is Leyline really isn't that amazing. Since I last posted it has gotten better because of the comeback Stax, but for your average metagame I still wouldn't run it. You Leyline is only effective against Stax, Flash or the mirror. The mirror and Flash are seeing almost zero play, so it's not worth running because of them.
For any normal deck Leyline would be decent against Stax because it stops Crucible and Goblin Welder. Ichorid isn't a normal deck thoughThe only things it cares about from Stax is post board graveyard hate(Usually Leyline) and a single Wasteland on Bazaar. Leyline does nothing to stop either of these threats, while Unmask can remove counters to clear the way for Reverent Silence or even remove the hate pieces themselves.
Protecting Bridge really isn't a valid reason to run Leyline because of Ichorid's speed. Even if they manage to remove some or all of the Bridges you still win with Ichorid, Narcomoeba or Dread Return. Removing bridges might slow you down a turn at most but it won't be enough time for your opponent to recover. Bridge hate is also seeing less and less play because people are not concerned about Ichorid and because they have realized it is not the best way to beat the deck.
I don't have a ton of experience with Stax, but Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman seems like rather poor lock pieces in the current environment. For win conditions I would cut Solemn Simulacrum and add at least two of Sundering Titan/Triskelion/Duplicant. You are a prison deck but you still need efficient win conditions. Running 4 Crucibles but only 3 Wastelands seems a little odd given the number of non-basics nowadays.
I would consider cutting Street Wraith. The deck is already very tight and making mulligan decisions harder is not worth the small amount of deck thinning you get. I would add Summoner's Pact as another tutor for Hulk. Finally consider Misd/Duress for some disruption and more ways to protect your combo.
Sorry mods if this is too spammy, if it is please just delete it and forget it ever happened.
It’s been real Magic The Gathering.
Jank Golem
The Dreadnought build is an interesting innovation for the Fish archetype. You have your standard Trinket Mage toolbox as well as Nought to get into play with Stifle, which can also be used to hit Fetches and other activated abilities. Nought is not it's only plan however, it is just a Fish deck that happens to run Nought to put on early pressure. Another thing to note is that virtually all the decks are running 5+ artifact mana sources but Null Rod is seeing no play as a mana denial effect.
My purpose of this set review was to cover all cards from Lorwyn that could be played in Vintage. If I was only covering the cards that would get a deck named after them I would not be doing a good and thorough job. In fact you wouldn't have a set review at all because I doubt any cards from Lorwyn will get a deck named after them. In the article I noted and heavily reviewed the cards I thought would make a large impact, Thoughtseize and Thorn of Amethyst. I also reviewed cards that will see a smaller amount of play and cards on the fringe of playability. We must look at all these cards because Vintage gets so few cards every set and it is important to find the impact of all of them. If you do not look at all the playable cards then you are not looking at the entire format and will not be able to fully comprehend it.
What makes an article less credible is it's content not the writer. If you felt the theory behind my cards was incomplete or the conclusions I drew were incorrect then fine. I take offense when you take an Ad Hominem position and discount the validity of the article purely on those grounds. If you look over on TMD I have posted a thread about this article and two of my previous Vintage articles. I have received positive and constructive feedback about my articles from TMD and have been encouraged by several members to continue writing. I still place a huge amount of value in the mtgsalvation community, first for them for giving me a great place to publish my article and secondly as a place to bring new players into the Vintage format and take place in serious discussion.
I thought about including Moonglove Extract in the list but I cannot see it being played over more versatile choices like Barbarain Ring, Powder Keg or Pyrite Spellbomb.
On Mirror Entity it is important to remember that it is only mana intensive the turn you cast it. Once Mirror is on the board you can use your mana to cast disruption pieces until you are able to alpha strike the opponent. Even if you are waiting for the alpha strike Miror Entity can get the job done faster than Grunt or Goyf. The initial mana cost is a drawback and to support it and other high costed disruption pieces Fish may revert to running off color artifact mana. In my personal opinion Mirror Entity will be played in some Fish decks to speed up their clock.
There are two reasons I chose to include Sower and Sprite. On their face both cards seem borderline playable, so they deserve some sort of explanation. Secondly both cards have been discussed online and added to tentative decklists; so they have some relevancy.
Portent is something to consider, but I cannot see it being played because it is a slow trip. The only deck that plays non Brainstorm cantrips is GAT which does not need to screw over the opponents topdecks. GAT does want their card right here, right now, not a turn later after missing a crucial land drop or spell.
Thorn will not see play in every Fish deck, but decks abusing mana denial and the other nine available sphere effects will want it. Wizards gives a few gems to Vintage every set, enough to prevent Vintage from becoming stagnant but still preserving it's integrity.
Not sure if it is relevant for pairings or not but I won 2-1, not 2-0.
Thanks for the games, they were good ones
The problem is Leyline really isn't that amazing. Since I last posted it has gotten better because of the comeback Stax, but for your average metagame I still wouldn't run it. You Leyline is only effective against Stax, Flash or the mirror. The mirror and Flash are seeing almost zero play, so it's not worth running because of them.
For any normal deck Leyline would be decent against Stax because it stops Crucible and Goblin Welder. Ichorid isn't a normal deck thoughThe only things it cares about from Stax is post board graveyard hate(Usually Leyline) and a single Wasteland on Bazaar. Leyline does nothing to stop either of these threats, while Unmask can remove counters to clear the way for Reverent Silence or even remove the hate pieces themselves.
Protecting Bridge really isn't a valid reason to run Leyline because of Ichorid's speed. Even if they manage to remove some or all of the Bridges you still win with Ichorid, Narcomoeba or Dread Return. Removing bridges might slow you down a turn at most but it won't be enough time for your opponent to recover. Bridge hate is also seeing less and less play because people are not concerned about Ichorid and because they have realized it is not the best way to beat the deck.